How Many Games Should Vick Be Suspended?

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by PSUSkinsFan21

See post 87. And isn't that what Pacman got suspended for? He hasn't been found guilty of his latest crimes yet.

Charged is different than convicted. He's been CHARGED multiple times.

[irish]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

I'm not a Vick apologist, but I think that penalties levied by the team or the league need to be commensurate with the outcome of the charges. What if the league suspends him for a season or, as some have suggested, bans him for life and it turns out that the 'corrobrating witnesses' have fabricated or exaggerated their claims? Then what do you say, oops-sorry?

What if he truly owns the house but never visits and has no knowledge of what goes on there? Do I think that's the case? No, but I don't know for sure either way so I am not ready to exonerate or convict him until I hear the facts.

'Experts' have said that some of the items found on the property are items commonly owned by legitimate dog breeders. Without the bloody carpet, there probably would have been no reason to pursue the case, remember they went initially on a drug warrant and found no drugs but found the bloody carpet. Investigation of that led to the search that found the carcasses in the yard.

As I said, I'm not a Vick apologist and if guilty or plea I expect him to get prison time but the rush to punish without letting things run their course seems drastic.

Why the rush to suspend or ban him immediately before he has even set foot in a courtroom?

The dog fighting stuff is only the tip of the iceberg. The real crux of the issue is that it looks like this dog fighting is part of an interstate gambling ring. Thats the main reason the Feds are involved. The Feds are not the LA district attys office, they dont waste their time on maybe cases. This is a done deal. Vick is finished because I am 100% sure the cousin living at the house has flipped on Vick. He will be the one that tells the tale on the others (including Vick).

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by SCRedskinsFan

With Goodell's track record there's no way he can ignore an indictment from a federal grand jury. Vick's past behavior obviously becomes a factor as well. The way this is snowballing, there seems to be no way that MV will be on the field for the Falcons in the near future.

I assume that there are some trilateral (Goddell-Blank-Vick's Agent) discussions going on right now that will create an acceptable (financially) path toward an indefinite leave of absence for Vick.

That gives this drama some time to play itself out in the courts. IMHO Vick is toast -- the Fed's tend to not lose these cases, and a conviction will result in ample reason for a long term suspension (which may be the least of MV's problems at that point)

I ask again, what past behavior? When has he been charged with anything or even investigated in a CRIMINAL investigation?

[PSUSkinsFan21]

Originally Posted by BigSKINBauer

Diffenence is that pacman was given times not to be out yet he still was out. He got introuble and was told not to do things but still did them and got introuble doing them. I would be fine if vick wasn't allowed to do things. NO being out past midnight. No more getting arrested. No going to the pet shop, whatever.

Ok, good point.

I still think a lot of people need to change their way of thinking, though, regarding how Vick has behaved in the past and that he was this squeaky-clean guy up until a few days ago. Just because he hadn't been caught doesn't mean he was a good guy who just made one mistake. Both guys are being accused of behaving badly for years, and neither has been convicted of their recent crimes (which led to a suspension for Pacman). But I hear you, Pacman was warned. Then again, did Vick really not know that this type of thing would lead to suspension by the league each time he allegedly committed these crimes over the past 6 years? I doubt it.

By the way, BSB....getting awefully close to that 5,000 post milestone.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by irish

The dog fighting stuff is only the tip of the iceberg. The real crux of the issue is that it looks like this dog fighting is part of an interstate gambling ring. Thats the main reason the Feds are involved. The Feds are not the LA district attys office, they dont waste their time on maybe cases. This is a done deal. Vick is finished because I am 100% sure the cousin living at the house has flipped on Vick. He will be the one that tells the tale on the others (including Vick).

I agree the Feds are involved because it is multi-state but how does that supercede the mantra 'innocent until proven guilty'? Anyone with common sense acknowledges that something doesn't smell right, but why the rush to punish NOW? He's going to get his, so why the mob mentality to (figuratively) lynch him immediately instead of when the trial has run it's course?

[Crazyhorse1]

Until convicted, he shouldn't be suspended at all. He's innocent until proven guilty, so punishment shouldn't commence before a conviction. Judge Mountain Landis threw Joe Jackson out of baseball for life even though he was found innocent of charges in the Black Sox scandal. As far as I'm concerned, the Jackson punishment was grotesque, made in a particularly dark age, and was a lasting disgrace for Landis and a disgrace for baseball.

Nothing should happen to Vick until after a conviction. If he is convicted and serves his sentence, nothing should happen to him further. The commissioner's office should stay out of it, forever. Whether Atlanta wants Vick working for them now or after Vick serves a sentence should be entirely up to Atlanta.

If Vick is found quilty and and I were in charge in Atlanta, however, I would never take him back.

[PSUSkinsFan21]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

Charged is different than convicted. He's been CHARGED multiple times.

And Vick has been CHARGED with multiple counts of multiple instances of dog fighting over the past 6 years.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by PSUSkinsFan21

And Vick has been CHARGED with multiple counts of multiple instances of dog fighting over the past 6 years.

It's under one indictment, that is the major difference. He is not a 'repeat offender' because this is his first criminal charge.

Pacman has been ARRESTED numerous times. (per AP: Jones has not been convicted of a crime. He did, however, have 10 encounters with police and five arrests since he was drafted in 2005.) It's an established pattern of illegal behavior. He was warned numerous times by the NFL to stay out of trouble and those situations that breed trouble. He continued to put himself in those predicaments and was justly dealt with.

There is no correlation between Vick's and Pacman's situation.

[irish]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

I agree the Feds are involved because it is multi-state but how does that supercede the mantra 'innocent until proven guilty'? Anyone with common sense acknowledges that something doesn't smell right, but why the rush to punish NOW? He's going to get his, so why the mob mentality to (figuratively) lynch him immediately instead of when the trial has run it's course?

This is called discussion and speculation. Last time I checked thats the whole point of this board. If we used your logic there would be nothing to discuss, debate or speculate on because we would have to wait for things to run their course. If that was the case Matty could just shut down this site and we could all find something else to do.

[SCRedskinsFan]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

I agree the Feds are involved because it is multi-state but how does that supercede the mantra 'innocent until proven guilty'? Anyone with common sense acknowledges that something doesn't smell right, but why the rush to punish NOW? He's going to get his, so why the mob mentality to (figuratively) lynch him immediately instead of when the trial has run it's course?

This thread is about guessing what Goodell is going to do. We're not talking about any court than Roger Goodell's. And, based on Goodell's track record (Henry, Johnson, et.al.) MV is likely to be suspended.

However, as I stated earlier, I feel certain that the league and owner will come to a "leave of absence" accomodation for MV. Like it or not, MV is a very public figure (by choice and with generous recompense) and the public court (you call it mob mentalitY) will have its say...

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by PSUSkinsFan21

Another question I have for those who want call Pacman's situation different from Vick's: In Pacman's case, he has gotten into trouble for multiple separate incidents over time. Right? Now, he still hasn't been convicted of any of them, but there are eye witnesses placing him at the various scenes and his repeated alleged offenses led to a suspension. So, what's the difference here? Vick isn't being accused of one isolated incident. Rather, he is being accused of breaking the law on multiple separate occasions. And there are eyewitnesses placing him at each of the various scenes where illegal activities were being conducted.

So, should the NFL somehow reward the person who gets charged all at once because the Feds do the responsible thing by building a case before charging him over the guy who is just unlucky enough to get caught each time he allegedly breaks the law by the local authorities? I mean, both men are being accused of repeated instances of illegal activity. It's not like Vick is being indicted for one instance of dog fighting. Why are are willing to go easier on the guy whose repeated behavior over the course of 6 six years just happens to get lumped into one indictment?

You have already tried and convicted him. You say eyewitnesses placed him at the scene. You know this because of what you have read in the report but it still has not been proven. I'm not sure what the argument is for having him suspended now and not afterwards. If he is convected of this he will go to jail and the Falcons will let him go. When or if he returns he will then have to wait out his suspension which will probably be a year so he will get what is coming. I think its going to be fun to watch this unfold as he tries to return to pratice next week. It would almost be doing the Falcons and Vick a favor if they suspended him. I'm not supporting Vick at all but feel justic should run its course.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by irish

This is called discussion and speculation. Last time I checked thats the whole point of this board. If we used your logic there would be nothing to discuss, debate or speculate on because we would have to wait for things to run their course. If that was the case Matty could just shut down this site and we could all find something else to do.

I understand the concept of message boards, I'm not a dumb Cowboys fan.

I just don't get why people are in such a rush to punish without things running their course and was hoping someone would explain why they thought that way.

One thing we can all agree on, I'm glad he's not a Redskin!

[backrow]

Originally Posted by irish

The dog fighting stuff is only the tip of the iceberg. The real crux of the issue is that it looks like this dog fighting is part of an interstate gambling ring. Thats the main reason the Feds are involved. The Feds are not the LA district attys office, they dont waste their time on maybe cases. This is a done deal. Vick is finished because I am 100% sure the cousin living at the house has flipped on Vick. He will be the one that tells the tale on the others (including Vick).

Interstate gambling is the reason I'm looking for the "Vote for Lifetime Ban", but I have been unable to locate such. Perhaps the poll needs ammending. Granted, It's not at all like the Pete Rose situation, but just wait until IRS gets it's teeth into this gambling business.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Nice link.
Makes me even more convinced he is a horrible person.
In case you haven't noticed, the NFL did start a program which has consequences for actions like these...so you basically answered your own question of "for what". Your link is what for.

So you want the NFL to legislate morality because you find his actions deplorable? Besides, all those offenses were in the past so the NFL can't retroactively suspend someone for their past actions.

As for his current plight, I'm of the opinion that this is a matter that first needs to clear the court system before any action by the NFL is warranted. If he is convicted or strikes a plea bargain I would expect nothing less than for him to get suspended one or more years.

I'll say it again, the mob needs to get off Vicks nuts.

[PSUSkinsFan21]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

It's under one indictment, that is the major difference. He is not a 'repeat offender' because this is his first criminal charge.

Pacman has been ARRESTED numerous times. It's an established pattern of illegal behavior. He was warned numerous times by the NFL to stay out of trouble and those situations that breed trouble. He continued to put himself in those predicaments and was justly dealt with.

There is no correlation between Vick's and Pacman's situation.

I get the warned multiple times argument. But I still don't agree that the difference between a guy who allegedly breaks the law numerous times and gets caught each time and a guy who allegedly breaks the law numerous times and doesn't get caught until a few years down the road is really that much of a distinction......at least not in terms of what Goodell's options are. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. To say that "there is no correlation between Vick's and Pacman's situation" is a pretty bold statement, though. If that was true, I don't think this thread would be this long.