Big C's "Is It the Talent" Poll

[GTripp0012]

Remember, our D just didn't force any turnovers last year. It's just wasn't part of our game. So with consistenly crappy field position, that explains the drop in points from 2005 to 2006. The offenses on the whole weren't much different. But the 2006 team was starting every drive from their own 20, and that probably was the No. 1 contributer to the decrease in overall pts from 2005.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by TenandSix:Unacceptable

WHuuuuwuwuwuut!!!?

Coaching cannot be blaimed for the sustained failure of a team!? Coaching always evens out over the course of a season?

Um, yeah it can and no it doesn't. That's like one of the craziest things I've ever heard.

"Early season, the losing was almost exclusively a defensive issue. Through the first half of our season, the only thing this team had going for it was the passing game."

So which one was it, a defensive problem or an everthing but the passing game problem? So, while you where watching games you were honestly thinking, "If only the rest of our team could catch up to our passing game?"

"Our passing game completely fell off the map once Brunell was replaced by Campbell. This wasn't because Campbell was playing exceptionally poorly, but because our offense missed our "puss-armed" QB coming out and completing 63% week in and week out. Campbell was throwing at a Vick-like 51% through his first five starts and our offense was suffering. We lost a very significant yard and a half per attempt with #17 in. Luckily, Cooley made a gamebreaking play vs. Carolina and the defense held New Orleans quiet, or JC would have been without a win this year."

Our passing was not dangerous enough to keep defenses honest with Mark Brunell at QB. It became more and more and more obvious as his tenure wore on here. He was saved by the running game two years ago, and he hurt the running game last year. He hurt the offensive line. The gamebreaking play by Cooley is a perfect example. Cooley made that play because JC hit him down the field in stride. And because Jason could go deep and avoid the rush, oposing defenses couldn't stack the box or blitz at will without the fear of getting burned. And by the way, MB's stats from last year lie. He made a lot of those completions when games were out of hand, and yes our defense was terrible.

This kind of leads me to my answer to the original poster. I agree with the guy who said that these problems are not black and white, but are very complex, as are most problems in life.

I would also say that we have a talent issue on this team. And, in fact, the coaching staff, and above all Joe Gibbs, has a HUGE impact on deciding which players we actually keep or go after. So this coaching staff is not ONLY responsible for getting the players we do have to play, and putting them in a position to do so succesfully, but in deciding who those players are. If they know enough about these players to help pick them, then they should also be responsible to know how to USE them. Our players weren't particularly well picked or well used last year, but more than anything, the one position that you have to pick a good player is at quarterback. Joe Gibbs is responsible for picking Mark Brunell. And it became clear that Mark Brunell was never going to take us very far, so Joe Gibbs is responsible for keeping him in there too long as well. But Gibbs is also responsible for giving up a lot to draft JC. You see, although most problems in life are complex, the simplest part of the problem with the Washington Redskins is at quarterback. We haven't had one who's worth a damn in a long time. Fixing the franchise begins at QB, JC or otherwise.


Sorry my posts are always so damn long.

Nah, I enjoy responding to well elaborated posts. Both you and Skinsfan69 have reasonable arguments. I just disagree. I'll do my best to explain while keeping it concise.

Sustained failure is something I would define as a string of losing seasons, or in our case a string of losing with a winning season thrown in there. I find it an unreasonable position to say that we have only had one winning season since 1999 solely due to poor coaching. Rather we've had a very varible coaching staff ranging from the good (Gibbs) to the bad (Spurrier) to the incomplete (Schottenheimer). We have not had the talent to compete consistenly with the rest of the league. Doesn't matter who the coach is. A bad coach will not sustain losing if he has a good roster. He may cost his team a game here and there, but over the course of a season, or many seasons, coaching is ultimately a smaller factor than most give it credit for being. Bad coaches don't always lose and good coaches don't always win. Good coaches do a better job of playing their best players for the situation and bad coaches do not. But if the bad coach has a better team than the good coach, he's going to win more times than not.

So which one was it, a defensive problem or an everthing but the passing game problem? So, while you where watching games you were honestly thinking, "If only the rest of our team could catch up to our passing game?"

Well, the running game was weak early on. It did correct itself in the late season with Ladell Betts of all people running the ball. I wasn't thinking anything of the sort. Defense and offense are two seperate entities. The passing game certainly had it's flaws. But when it came to the end of the day, the offense was usually holding up its end of the bargain, it was keeping us in the game. This continued throughout the season with more of an emphasis on the running game with Campbell at QB.

Our passing was not dangerous enough to keep defenses honest with Mark Brunell at QB. It became more and more and more obvious as his tenure wore on here. He was saved by the running game two years ago, and he hurt the running game last year. He hurt the offensive line. The gamebreaking play by Cooley is a perfect example. Cooley made that play because JC hit him down the field in stride. And because Jason could go deep and avoid the rush, oposing defenses couldn't stack the box or blitz at will without the fear of getting burned. And by the way, MB's stats from last year lie. He made a lot of those completions when games were out of hand, and yes our defense was terrible.

I don't know why so many people think that Brunell and Co. weren't keeping defenses honest. Seems like its an undefendable notion designed to discredit otherwise sound production. Brunell threw damn near 7 yards an attempt last year. Either he was downfield passing more than we thought, or defenses were staying very honest and allowing 7 yard completions off delay check downs. It can't be both ways. If 11 guys are really at the LOS, check downs don't become 7 yard successful plays. This is an inconsistency in the "Brunell can't get it done" logic.

There is zero evidence to make me think we were defended differently than every other team in the league last year with Brunell. Brunell attacked an inconsistency in the soft zone that defenses in the NFL play. Peyton Manning attacked the Bears defense in the exact same way Brunell had been beating defenses this year on the games biggest stage. It's okay to move the ball with short controlled throws. Really it is.

Additionally, Brunell also had considerable success hitting Lloyd on that fade route in single coverage. That's a "deep" throw, is it not?

Teams could have defended the Redskins more aggressively if they wanted to last year, but theres no reason to think Brunell wouldn't have beaten them deep if they did. Brunell didn't take a lot of deep shots because he didnt need to. Pure and simple.

I would also say that we have a talent issue on this team. And, in fact, the coaching staff, and above all Joe Gibbs, has a HUGE impact on deciding which players we actually keep or go after. So this coaching staff is not ONLY responsible for getting the players we do have to play, and putting them in a position to do so succesfully, but in deciding who those players are. If they know enough about these players to help pick them, then they should also be responsible to know how to USE them. Our players weren't particularly well picked or well used last year, but more than anything, the one position that you have to pick a good player is at quarterback. Joe Gibbs is responsible for picking Mark Brunell. And it became clear that Mark Brunell was never going to take us very far, so Joe Gibbs is responsible for keeping him in there too long as well. But Gibbs is also responsible for giving up a lot to draft JC. You see, although most problems in life are complex, the simplest part of the problem with the Washington Redskins is at quarterback. We haven't had one who's worth a damn in a long time. Fixing the franchise begins at QB, JC or otherwise.

Yeah, but the duties of a coach and the duties of a GM aren't similar. If we don't have the talent to compete, that's not a coaching issue. It's a managerial error made by people who also happen to coach. There's a big difference.

I don't think Brunell was kept in too long. Gibbs was trying to win games. With our defense, we couldn't have expected it to happen. But as a coach, his duty is to play to win the game. It's very clear to see that Campbell in 2006 didn't give us our best chance to win games. I mean, we got to see him play. He was learning on the job. He did not do better than Brunell did. That's quite clear. It's good that JC got out there to get some experience. It should speed his development up a little bit. But it may have cost us some games, Tampa Bay, Philadelphia, and Atlanta were games were poor QB play contributed a major part to the loss.

But even if we had won all 3, we still would have lost the tiebreaker to New York, so its certainly a plus that JC got to play.

You can't EVER fault a coach for playing his best players. I think it would have been a questionable decision had we played Brunell all 16 games, even after we were out of the playoff race, but certainly defenseable. You play to win the game.

Good post, BTW. I bet most of america would agree with you. I'm just addressing what I believe to be inconsistencies with reality.

[TenandSix:Unacceptable]

Coaches play to win. In essence, they are "win now" entities and that is completely understandable. That, along with the fact that we have not gotten consistent above average QB play for well over a decade, (MB definitley included), are some of the main problems with our team. Joe Gibbs and the coaching staff help the pro scouts and Vinny Cerrato decide who can help us win. The problem I see, and people outside and inside Redskins' Land have been commenting on it for a number of years, is that who is responsible for setting the long term goals of this team? We consistanly overlook long term decisions for the team by making choices in the name of "win now". Honestly, even though most fans are praising our offseason, the Baker and Smoot signings scream of this. Hey, I understand that Joe came back to save the franchise, but because he got lured in to thinking he could do it through FA and not the draft, Redskins are gonna have even more hell to pay down the road. Now, for the Joe II era at least, we don't have time for the draft.

Also, have you ever noticed that everytime we have a high draft pick since Heath Shuler we for whatever reason are not looking at QB. It is really frustrating. You get high draft picks because your team sucks, simple as that. If I took over the Skins, the first thing I would do is make sure we have a QB who is going to truly give us a "best chance to win", year in and year out. That's why picking up players like Brad Johnson, Jeff George, and MB really sucks to me, and those are the best one's we've had around. They make you think you have a fighting chance with them, and you do. But they won't really take you there unless the perfect storm happens around them like it did for Dilfer in Baltimore, and Johnson in TB. And were are they now? The Ravens have another aging guy in McNair. TB has the so so prospect of Chris Simms and now Jeff Garcia. If you don't fix the QB situation right, it comes back to haunt you year after year, and in order to "win now" you end up taking expensive flyers on these aging pros. QB is a constant problem for us, and always will be until we find someone who can give us a legitimate "best chance to win". If it's not Campbell, I hope we don't turn to another guy like Mark Brunell. Yeah, we might get lucky with a guy like that for a season or two, but where is that gonna put us long term?

[zo4skins1]

Wasup Skins Fans....When you lose especially with all the money spent last year everything is magnified 10 fold. This team has talent but it took on too many things (new offense,new players,etc.) and never gave itself an opportunity because they were'nt settled in to the scheme or which players worked well in that scheme. Campbell had no time in with the first team or the offense, Portis was hurt, the Defense had injuries across the board.The front office seems to be more detailed and prudent this year and heres hoping that a deal comes about that helps us add some depth to both the OL & DL and we also need at least one more solid DB but we are by no means as bad as it looked last season and even though there are some me first guys on this team there are also some good players with a lot of pride who cant wait to make up for what happend last year.............HAIL TO THE REDSKINS.......

[JDALY27]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

I'm not a big fan of any of the poll choices.

My view is this, we've got talent. We had more talent than our 5-11 record indicated last year. However, I think the transition to Saunders threw things off track and put us back at square one offensively. The switch to Campbell should have come earlier, but I don't think it would have changed the final result of the season very much. Portis never got on track before being lost for the season and that was a big loss despite the stellar job Betts did in relief. Overall the offense just never got on track and I think there was some grumbling behind the scenes with players wondering why such a drastic change was needed.

Defensively we had some key injuries, guys that underperformed, and a behind the scenes clashing between some players and coaches that probably didn't help out in the morale dept. very much.

I don't think it's a cut and dry issue of personnel vs. coaching as to why we didn't win last year. It was a combo of both, with other issues mixed in as well such as injuries, making the switch to a new offense, switching QBs, and petty drama behind the scenes.

We were 5-11 b/c our Defense sucked hard! One of the worst Redskin defenses to ever take the field statistically speaking. That is a head scratcher b/c most of the players were on the top 5 and top 10 defenses from the past two years. Our offense scored enough points and held the ball long enough to make the playoffs if our defense created anything or stopped anyone ever. We were # 3 ranked rushing offense last year.

Definately not the talent. GW should be help accountable. AA was his move and he let Walt Harris and others get away. Also seemed like GW lost confidence in his game calling along the way. He needs a MAJOR bounce back year for us to make the playoffs, like we have the talent to do!

[TheMalcolmConnection]

It was essentially we had a well-oiled machine until some vital cogs of that machine were changed and removed.

Equate last year's team to a very fast car. Sure, it's great and consistent when the entire car is running to it's top potential. But say you take the same car, put a transmission that wasn't made for it in the car (Archuleta) and have the car only running on half the cylinders (missing Springs) and you still have basically the same car without nearly the same effectiveness.

Sure, it's a team sport, but when important pieces of the puzzle are missing or hurt, it's going to make a HUGE difference in how the team performs.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by TenandSix:Unacceptable

Coaches play to win. In essence, they are "win now" entities and that is completely understandable. That, along with the fact that we have not gotten consistent above average QB play for well over a decade, (MB definitley included), are some of the main problems with our team. Joe Gibbs and the coaching staff help the pro scouts and Vinny Cerrato decide who can help us win. The problem I see, and people outside and inside Redskins' Land have been commenting on it for a number of years, is that who is responsible for setting the long term goals of this team? We consistanly overlook long term decisions for the team by making choices in the name of "win now". Honestly, even though most fans are praising our offseason, the Baker and Smoot signings scream of this. Hey, I understand that Joe came back to save the franchise, but because he got lured in to thinking he could do it through FA and not the draft, Redskins are gonna have even more hell to pay down the road. Now, for the Joe II era at least, we don't have time for the draft.

Also, have you ever noticed that everytime we have a high draft pick since Heath Shuler we for whatever reason are not looking at QB. It is really frustrating. You get high draft picks because your team sucks, simple as that. If I took over the Skins, the first thing I would do is make sure we have a QB who is going to truly give us a "best chance to win", year in and year out. That's why picking up players like Brad Johnson, Jeff George, and MB really sucks to me, and those are the best one's we've had around. They make you think you have a fighting chance with them, and you do. But they won't really take you there unless the perfect storm happens around them like it did for Dilfer in Baltimore, and Johnson in TB. And were are they now? The Ravens have another aging guy in McNair. TB has the so so prospect of Chris Simms and now Jeff Garcia. If you don't fix the QB situation right, it comes back to haunt you year after year, and in order to "win now" you end up taking expensive flyers on these aging pros. QB is a constant problem for us, and always will be until we find someone who can give us a legitimate "best chance to win". If it's not Campbell, I hope we don't turn to another guy like Mark Brunell. Yeah, we might get lucky with a guy like that for a season or two, but where is that gonna put us long term?

These are all good points. Although Brad J. was still in his prime when we got him.

[Monkeydad]

How about bad luck with injuries and getting robbed by refs?

That's my answer.

[redsk1]

On offense, we have the talent but don't have the QB to get the ball around, right now. I like JC, he's improving, but it's to early to tell how his career is going to progress.

On D, I think we lack the talent and depth at a few spots that is needed to be a top D in the league. We got injured and old quickly in a few areas and didn't have the depth for players to step in.

[rvd420]

all in all its the owners fault cause he makes the final decision.plus if a team has no chemistry they dont win.the snyde doesnt know football.he should sell the team to kent cooks son who has football in the blood.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by TenandSix:Unacceptable

Coaches play to win. In essence, they are "win now" entities and that is completely understandable. That, along with the fact that we have not gotten consistent above average QB play for well over a decade, (MB definitley included), are some of the main problems with our team. Joe Gibbs and the coaching staff help the pro scouts and Vinny Cerrato decide who can help us win. The problem I see, and people outside and inside Redskins' Land have been commenting on it for a number of years, is that who is responsible for setting the long term goals of this team? We consistanly overlook long term decisions for the team by making choices in the name of "win now". Honestly, even though most fans are praising our offseason, the Baker and Smoot signings scream of this. Hey, I understand that Joe came back to save the franchise, but because he got lured in to thinking he could do it through FA and not the draft, Redskins are gonna have even more hell to pay down the road. Now, for the Joe II era at least, we don't have time for the draft.

Also, have you ever noticed that everytime we have a high draft pick since Heath Shuler we for whatever reason are not looking at QB. It is really frustrating. You get high draft picks because your team sucks, simple as that. If I took over the Skins, the first thing I would do is make sure we have a QB who is going to truly give us a "best chance to win", year in and year out. That's why picking up players like Brad Johnson, Jeff George, and MB really sucks to me, and those are the best one's we've had around. They make you think you have a fighting chance with them, and you do. But they won't really take you there unless the perfect storm happens around them like it did for Dilfer in Baltimore, and Johnson in TB. And were are they now? The Ravens have another aging guy in McNair. TB has the so so prospect of Chris Simms and now Jeff Garcia. If you don't fix the QB situation right, it comes back to haunt you year after year, and in order to "win now" you end up taking expensive flyers on these aging pros. QB is a constant problem for us, and always will be until we find someone who can give us a legitimate "best chance to win". If it's not Campbell, I hope we don't turn to another guy like Mark Brunell. Yeah, we might get lucky with a guy like that for a season or two, but where is that gonna put us long term?

I think Campbell is the solution to what you desire. He's the closest thing to a sure fire superstar that the college ranks had produced in awhile (excluding Carson Palmer, of course).

Since then there have been 4 great QB prospects in Cutler, Leinart, Young, and now Quinn.

I guess my point is that great QBs are few and far between, but the quantity of them in the NFL is increasing now a days. We may have stumbled upon a great prospect in Campbell.

Eventually though, winning goes beyond QB play. A QB can put up great numbers by virtue of his own skill, but wins are as much a part of every other unit than the QB.

You have to build a team around a guy you trust at QB. We don't have time to draft another great QB prospect everytime our current guy has a setback. Campbell may not make the league forget Dan Marino, but I think he's going to give us solid to great numbers in the future. We need to give him a defense if we want to be a perrenial playoff team under him though.

"The perfect storm" that you suggest is hardly perfect. Just the combination of a great team and timely luck. Luck will fluctuate for us, but a great team will get us deep into the playoffs. A great QB makes a team better, but he does not win games by himself.

[TenandSix:Unacceptable]

Look at Payton Manning before he won this year. I'm sure every offseason Indy fans would wonder why they didn't win it all with him at QB. Heck, look at Dan Marino; he never won. No, getting a legitimate QB who is going to grow with the team doesn't garauntee you anything. It is just the best place to start. It seems like the Skins didn't get the message. Would you like some John Friez with that?