Is it finally time to rebuild??

ethat001 · 12-13-2010, 03:31 AM

Sure, we've been saying this for years, and Shanahan decided not to rebuild last year. I still wonder whether that was the right choice. BUT - now our starting #1 WR is 32 with few options behind him, our best LB and key to the defense is Fletcher (36) and here's an abbreviated list of one of the oldest rosters on the planet (ages for 2011):

P.Daniels - will be 38
McNabb - will be 35
Fletcher - will be 36
Casay Rabach - will be 34
Artis Hicks - will be 32
Santana Moss - will be 32
Andre Carter - will be 32
Kemo - will be 32
D. Dockery - will be 31
Clinton Portis - will be 30
Roydell Williams - will be 30

Cooley - will be 29
J.Brown - will be 29

I won't mention Galloway is all but already retired.

The question is - can we fix this team in 2-3 years? If not, we should rebuild, dump older players and accept a couple of bad seasons as they get experience. The Capitals rebuilt and now has one of the best young rosters in the league for years to come. The Eagles and Tampa Bay also come to mind with young talent.

The second question is: since coaches are rewarded for success - is there no incentive for Shanahan to rebuild because he knows that he could get fired if he does not deliver success within 2 years?

takethecake · 12-13-2010, 04:54 AM

The redskins ARE rebuilding. They cut a lot of older players last offseason, and I'm sure they'll cut more at the end of this season. I think everyone knows that they need to get younger, but I'm not sure it's as easy as it sounds. They will go with their best options regardless of age, and probably aim to add as much young talent as they can. We'll probably also see some different players getting snaps for the rest of this season.

The capitals didn't really have a profound "rebuilding." They just drafted well with their first and second round picks, and after four or five years of having high picks yielding quality players, they started to turn the franchise around.

2002: 1st round: Alexander Semin
2003: 1st round: Eric Fehr
2004: 1st round: Alexander Ovechkin, Jeff Schultz, and Mike Green
2006: 1st round: Nick Backstrom, Semyon Varlamov; 2nd round: Michael Neuvirth
2007: 1st round: Karl Alzner
2008: 1st round: John Carlson

It was only in the 2007-2008 season that things really started to come together for them. But your parallel with the caps shows what the redskins DO need: smart drafting in the early rounds over the next 3 to 4 seasons.

I question whether "dump older players and accept a couple of bad seasons as they get experience" is really a valid strategy for success. What is needed is young talent, not just young players. I'm all for giving younger players a shot, but you can't just throw a bunch of young guys with questionable ability together and expect that 2 years of experience will mold them into winners (especially not with the skins :P).

To answer your second question, it's less about coaches being rewarded for success and more about them being punished for a lack of production. While I think Shanahan's resume gives him a little more sticking power if next season goes downhill as well, I'm sure he understands that Snyder expects wins. He will utilize the players that give him the best chance to win, but I'm sure he's open to an influx of youth as long as it doesn't cripple the team's chances - this I am fine with. I guess overall I think that people cling on to the idea of "rebuilding" or "blowing up the team" as some sort of miraculous savior for bad teams, and that this team just needs strong leadership and good drafting over the next few years to reverse their current trend.

44 70 chip · 12-13-2010, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by takethecake

The capitals didn't really have a profound "rebuilding." They just drafted well with their first and second round picks, and after four or five years of having high picks yielding quality players, they started to turn the franchise around.

IMO they had the definitive hockey rebuilding year, they sent Gonchar and a host of other veteran players off for anything they could get in draft picks, IMO it doesn't get a lot more "rebuilding" then what the Caps did when they recognized how badly the team needed it. I admit it's pretty subjective

IMO the Skins should have been in rebuilding mode every year for the last decade. When you piss away 19 total draft picks on 5 players who lasted any time and were productive players via trade/draft trade ups then you "reap what you sow"

I am refering to:
2nd and Bailey for Portis (instead of just Bailey)
3rd for Brunell
1st, 3rd, & 4th total picks for Campbell
3rd & 4th total picks cost of Cooley
3rd & 4th for TJ Duckett
3rd & 4th for Brandon Lloyd
2nd & 6th + another drafts 2nd cost for Rocky McIntosh
2nd & 6th for Taylor
3rd or 4th rounder for Brown pending McNabb
2nd & 3rd or 4th rounder for McNabb

That's a total of 19 picks sent for (arguably) 5 long term starting Redskins of any caliber and two of those (McNabb and Brown obviously) are assuming McNabb and Brown stay for years to come and that is VERY much in question, as Brown is a unrestricted free agent in 3 games and McNabb... well who knows...

The Skins team building philosophy (if you can credit it with enough forethought to call it a philosophy) has been to sacrifice the long term (young potentially talented draftees who might play for 6 or 10 years) for proven players who may have a few years left on the clock, but usually spend at least one of those years adjusting to new systems and then often the next year adjusting to a new HC or coordinator and their systems.

McNabb's first year here is a great example... So was Brunell's

Beemnseven · 12-13-2010, 07:13 AM

Who says we aren't rebuilding? 2011 could be a bad season whether we "accept" it or not. Hell, we've already gone through two bad 4-5 win years already.

The problem will be if next year is even worse; say, a 3-13 type season -- will Snyder accept getting worse than this before it gets better and still keep this front office intact?

rypper11 · 12-13-2010, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

Who says we aren't rebuilding? 2011 could be a bad season whether we "accept" it or not. Hell, we've already gone through two bad 4-5 win years already.

The problem will be if next year is even worse; say, a 3-13 type season -- will Snyder accept getting worse than this before it gets better and still keep this front office intact?

I think we are and 2011 will be a 7 or 8 win season. My thought is still 6 or 7 this season. If 2011 is a 2 or 3 win season then I'd expect a new HC in 2012 for the first 18 game season.

I think Carter, Rocky, Haynesworth, Dockery and Roydell Williams will be the only big names/older players released in the offseason. Daniels and Fletcher are still playing well enough to keep around for their leadership over the younger guys brought in.

MTK · 12-13-2010, 10:06 AM

I guess someone needs to slap a big sign on the front of Redskins Park that says we are rebuilding to make everyone happy.

There was only so much rebuilding that could be done last year with limited picks and a limited FA pool. That said they still turned over 1/3 of the roster and the changes next year should only continue.

skinsguy · 12-13-2010, 10:19 AM

You can't rebuild all within one season. It takes time. It's a process. There will be more roster changes by season's end. No need to worry about that. Shanahan had to go through at least one full season with this team to have a better understanding of what he had to work with here. You dump who you can and keep who gives you the best team on the field in the current situation.

No matter what, you always try your best to win now, even when it's apparent that you're not that great of a team. MS is finding out who wants to be here next season and who doesn't. I personally believe it's going to take at least three years to truly see a transformation. I just hope Snyder, and the fans, are patient enough to endure the basement until then.

SBXVII · 12-13-2010, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mattyk

I guess someone needs to slap a big sign on the front of Redskins Park that says we are rebuilding to make everyone happy.

There was only so much rebuilding that could be done last year with limited picks and a limited FA pool. That said they still turned over 1/3 of the roster and the changes next year should only continue.

I totally agree with you. The team could only make so many moves in the off season. It's not like there was a ton of talented OL in FA waiting to be picked up and you only have so many picks in the draft.

sportscurmudgeon · 12-13-2010, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mattyk

I guess someone needs to slap a big sign on the front of Redskins Park that says we are rebuilding to make everyone happy.

There was only so much rebuilding that could be done last year with limited picks and a limited FA pool. That said they still turned over 1/3 of the roster and the changes next year should only continue.

Matty:

You are absolutely right! The only way to rebuild more quickly is to have stockpiled draft picks - - like the Bucs did - - and then to spend the time and $$$ on the scouting department to get the draft right - - which the Skins have never done since the Bobby Beathard days.

How many picks do the Skins have next year? I believe the Pats have 11...

SmootSmack · 12-13-2010, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

Matty:

You are absolutely right! The only way to rebuild more quickly is to have stockpiled draft picks - - like the Bucs did - - and then to spend the time and $$$ on the scouting department to get the draft right - - which the Skins have never done since the Bobby Beathard days.

How many picks do the Skins have next year? I believe the Pats have 11...

Bobby Beathard's Redskins drafted a lot of duds in the mid to late rounds. A lot. Not to mention regularly traded out of the first round. But he did do a good job of putting the team in a position on draft day to afford to make countless mistakes. We haven't really put ourselves in that position recently.

freddyg12 · 12-13-2010, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Bobby Beathard's Redskins drafted a lot of duds in the mid to late rounds. A lot. Not to mention regularly traded out of the first round. But he did do a good job of putting the team in a position on draft day to afford to make countless mistakes. We haven't really put ourselves in that position recently.

That's essentially half of a good draft strategy; getting picks. The other half is of course scouting & drafting well. We haven't drafted that poorly on a per capita basis compared to the rest of the league, we just have squandered so many picks that we've got less to show for our drafts.

SmootSmack · 12-13-2010, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freddyg12

That's essentially half of a good draft strategy; getting picks. The other half is of course scouting & drafting well. We haven't drafted that poorly on a per capita basis compared to the rest of the league, we just have squandered so many picks that we've got less to show for our drafts.

Agreed, to an extent. Good draft strategy is either accumulating picks or making smart decisions with the picks you have. But I've brought up the Patriots in the past, they have had several draft picks that either a) contributed nothing in their first year and/or are no longer with the team, let alone in the league. But they give themselves countless opportunities to build the team

SolidSnake84 · 12-13-2010, 10:10 AM

I knew that this year we were seeing Rebuilding whether they wanted to admit it or not.

jdlea · 12-13-2010, 10:17 AM

http://www.thewarpath.net/redskins-l...tml#post768237

Longtimefan · 12-13-2010, 10:31 AM

The concept of rebuild has been well adopted in the minds of many fans, but will it be adopted at the box office. If this team continues it's losing ways, attendance will suffer greatly, forcing management to somehow find a happy medium. Yesterdays announced attendance 66,000+ could become the norm.

Mike Wise - Mike Shanahan and Washington Redskins must face need to rebuild

12-13-2010, 04:54 AM	#2
takethecake Special Teams Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Bethesda, MD Age: 36 Posts: 281	Re: Is it finally time to rebuild?? The redskins ARE rebuilding. They cut a lot of older players last offseason, and I'm sure they'll cut more at the end of this season. I think everyone knows that they need to get younger, but I'm not sure it's as easy as it sounds. They will go with their best options regardless of age, and probably aim to add as much young talent as they can. We'll probably also see some different players getting snaps for the rest of this season. The capitals didn't really have a profound "rebuilding." They just drafted well with their first and second round picks, and after four or five years of having high picks yielding quality players, they started to turn the franchise around. 2002: 1st round: Alexander Semin 2003: 1st round: Eric Fehr 2004: 1st round: Alexander Ovechkin, Jeff Schultz, and Mike Green 2006: 1st round: Nick Backstrom, Semyon Varlamov; 2nd round: Michael Neuvirth 2007: 1st round: Karl Alzner 2008: 1st round: John Carlson It was only in the 2007-2008 season that things really started to come together for them. But your parallel with the caps shows what the redskins DO need: smart drafting in the early rounds over the next 3 to 4 seasons. I question whether "dump older players and accept a couple of bad seasons as they get experience" is really a valid strategy for success. What is needed is young talent, not just young players. I'm all for giving younger players a shot, but you can't just throw a bunch of young guys with questionable ability together and expect that 2 years of experience will mold them into winners (especially not with the skins :P). To answer your second question, it's less about coaches being rewarded for success and more about them being punished for a lack of production. While I think Shanahan's resume gives him a little more sticking power if next season goes downhill as well, I'm sure he understands that Snyder expects wins. He will utilize the players that give him the best chance to win, but I'm sure he's open to an influx of youth as long as it doesn't cripple the team's chances - this I am fine with. I guess overall I think that people cling on to the idea of "rebuilding" or "blowing up the team" as some sort of miraculous savior for bad teams, and that this team just needs strong leadership and good drafting over the next few years to reverse their current trend.

12-13-2010, 07:13 AM	#4
Beemnseven Pro Bowl Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Virginia Beach Age: 50 Posts: 5,311	Re: Is it finally time to rebuild?? Who says we aren't rebuilding? 2011 could be a bad season whether we "accept" it or not. Hell, we've already gone through two bad 4-5 win years already. The problem will be if next year is even worse; say, a 3-13 type season -- will Snyder accept getting worse than this before it gets better and still keep this front office intact?

12-13-2010, 10:06 AM	#6
MTK \m/ Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: NY Age: 52 Posts: 99,464	Re: Is it finally time to rebuild?? I guess someone needs to slap a big sign on the front of Redskins Park that says we are rebuilding to make everyone happy. There was only so much rebuilding that could be done last year with limited picks and a limited FA pool. That said they still turned over 1/3 of the roster and the changes next year should only continue. __________________ Support The Warpath! \| Warpath Shop

12-13-2010, 10:19 AM	#7
skinsguy Pro Bowl Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Greensboro, North Carolina Posts: 6,766	Re: Is it finally time to rebuild?? You can't rebuild all within one season. It takes time. It's a process. There will be more roster changes by season's end. No need to worry about that. Shanahan had to go through at least one full season with this team to have a better understanding of what he had to work with here. You dump who you can and keep who gives you the best team on the field in the current situation. No matter what, you always try your best to win now, even when it's apparent that you're not that great of a team. MS is finding out who wants to be here next season and who doesn't. I personally believe it's going to take at least three years to truly see a transformation. I just hope Snyder, and the fans, are patient enough to endure the basement until then. __________________ "Fire Up That Diesel!"

12-13-2010, 10:10 AM	#13
SolidSnake84 Playmaker Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Stephens City, VA Posts: 2,947	Re: Is it finally time to rebuild?? I knew that this year we were seeing Rebuilding whether they wanted to admit it or not. __________________ Time to nut up or shut up

12-13-2010, 03:31 AM	#1
ethat001 Impact Rookie Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 920	Is it finally time to rebuild?? Sure, we've been saying this for years, and Shanahan decided not to rebuild last year. I still wonder whether that was the right choice. BUT - now our starting #1 WR is 32 with few options behind him, our best LB and key to the defense is Fletcher (36) and here's an abbreviated list of one of the oldest rosters on the planet (ages for 2011): P.Daniels - will be 38 McNabb - will be 35 Fletcher - will be 36 Casay Rabach - will be 34 Artis Hicks - will be 32 Santana Moss - will be 32 Andre Carter - will be 32 Kemo - will be 32 D. Dockery - will be 31 Clinton Portis - will be 30 Roydell Williams - will be 30 Cooley - will be 29 J.Brown - will be 29 I won't mention Galloway is all but already retired. The question is - can we fix this team in 2-3 years? If not, we should rebuild, dump older players and accept a couple of bad seasons as they get experience. The Capitals rebuilt and now has one of the best young rosters in the league for years to come. The Eagles and Tampa Bay also come to mind with young talent. The second question is: since coaches are rewarded for success - is there no incentive for Shanahan to rebuild because he knows that he could get fired if he does not deliver success within 2 years?

12-13-2010, 10:17 AM	#14
jdlea Playmaker Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Arlington, VA Age: 40 Posts: 3,109	Re: Is it finally time to rebuild?? http://www.thewarpath.net/redskins-l...tml#post768237

12-13-2010, 10:31 AM	#15
Longtimefan Playmaker Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Germantown, Md. Posts: 4,832	Re: Is it finally time to rebuild?? The concept of rebuild has been well adopted in the minds of many fans, but will it be adopted at the box office. If this team continues it's losing ways, attendance will suffer greatly, forcing management to somehow find a happy medium. Yesterdays announced attendance 66,000+ could become the norm. Mike Wise - Mike Shanahan and Washington Redskins must face need to rebuild __________________ A revolution is coming and it will be televised.

Is it finally time to rebuild??

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