The Ramsey Dilemma

SmootSmack · 08-28-2004, 08:10 PM

So it's pretty apparent that Ramsey hasn't done anything to earn Gibbs' trust as a starting QB to start the season. Some guys on ESPN say that they think Ramsey will finish the season but that Gibbs wants Brunell early on in the season to basically serve as on-field coach until Gibbs settles back into the NFL-and its new substitution rules since he left.

Here's the thing though. To me the biggest difference is not the talent. Put them in a straight throwing competition and I'm sure Ramsey wins just about every time. But it's the intangibles-checking off receivers, knowing when to throw the ball away, etc.

All that comes from experience. So here's the Catch-22 then. Ramsey can't become better if he's not playing can he? Practice can only do so much and yet we can't really afford to have him on the field right now. Not the way he's been playing

So what do you guys think? If you were Joe Gibbs-wouldn't that be sweet!-how do you help Ramsey become a better game day QB without sacrificing the team's immediate success?

offiss · 08-28-2004, 08:27 PM

You can develope a QB in practice, especially one who has in game expierience such as Ramsey, he know's the speed of the game, it's just a matter of him learning the offense, and trusting his reciever's in the new offense, once he feel's comfortable with that he will be fine, we also have to take into account matchup's in this competition, as well as we are very bland right now which is making the job of both QB's tougher.

Daseal · 08-28-2004, 08:42 PM

I think that this season is extremely important for Ramsey. Once Brunnell is named the official starter and Ramsey can settle down and just be himself I'm curious how he'll play. He needs to get his habit of holding on too long and his slow release fixed. Let him watch Brunnell for a bit and settle in. If he still plays like this come the end of the season, I'm going to be curious if he is indeed the heir to this team.

EEich · 08-28-2004, 09:31 PM

One thing for sure is that Gibbs does not like to lose, thinks this team can win now and won't play Ramsey before he's ready. That's why he brought in Brunnell. Give Joe some credit for recognizing early that he needed a veteran until Ramsey is ready.

Gibbs is patient developing QBs and Patrick is more gifted than any of the 3 QBs that Joe took to the Superbowl. Ramsey will be a Superbowl winner someday. We have to be patient too.

Shane · 08-28-2004, 10:44 PM

"The realization is growing that, relative to most quarterbacks his age, Ramsey has had very rudimentary football schooling. In high school, he was nationally known as a javelin thrower as much or more than a quarterback. At Tulane, hardly a college power, he spent most of his time proving his courage behind poor offensive lines. Then, finally, as a Redskin, he spent two years of his career learning the one offensive system on the planet that is of no use whatsoever to an NFL quarterback: Steve Spurrier's chuck 'n' duck"
(Thomas Boswell)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...?nav=headlines

I am beginning to think that Patrick Ramsey may have had it right when he made noises about wanting to be traded after Mark Brunell arrived. The Redskins are in a big push to win as soon as possible. Can Ramsey learn fast enough? Time will tell.

I think Ramsey would be better off playing for a team that is not in the race for the playoffs, who need to develop a young quarterback, and who might give him some starts.

EEich · 08-28-2004, 10:56 PM

Why does Ramsey have to start now?
Why would it be better for him somewhere else?
He's in a no pressure situation this year.
He's being tutored by a Hall of Fame coach.
Would he be better off in Arizona or San Diego getting pummeled starting for a losing team?
I think he got plenty of that last year and he's no better for it.

Daseal · 08-28-2004, 11:04 PM

The team that wanted Ramsey wasn't exactly Arizona or San Diego. It was Miami.

EEich · 08-28-2004, 11:08 PM

Miami is in a world of hurt. He's still in a better situation here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daseal

The team that wanted Ramsey wasn't exactly Arizona or San Diego. It was Miami.

Shane · 08-28-2004, 11:33 PM

I think he would be better off with another team, like Miami, because I am skeptical that he is going to learn the ropes fast enough to fit with the Redskins' agenda.

We want to win a Super Bowl sooner rather than later and I don't think people will have the patience to wait for Ramsey to develop - if he ever does adequately, which is not a guarantee. Ramsey might be better off with a team that isn't going to feel like its title hopes would be jeopardized by letting him grow into the job.

He does have good character and plenty of talent, but his experience is very limited, as Boswell points out.

Besides the development issues for him, I don't know if his confidence is very high right now and that can translate into leadership issues if he were called into action. If he isn't sure of himself in this system, how can he inspire others to believe positive things are going to happpen when he gets into the huddle?

la73hof · 08-28-2004, 11:47 PM

Gentlemen, Ramsey reminds me a whole lot of Chad Hutchinson coming off his '02 season..

Hutchinson was thrown to the wolves with perhaps the worst OL in Cowboys history giving up 54 sacks..I mean it was awful..when Hutch wasnt sacked he was getting plastered.

I believe that season ruined Hutch..he was shellshocked..Hutch developed a case of happy feet after that. Thje only thing we learned about Hutch is he was one tough SOB

Hutch got beat out by QuINTcy last year and was released this offseason after only a so-so showing in Europe

2 more simliarities between the '02 Cowboys and '03 Skins were the OL coach and the OC

In Helton, you seemed to have a guy whose system who didnt didnt fit the personnel he had. Did the skins even pull their guard the last 2 years? Thomas has excellent mobility but wasnt used in this capacity. Helton, from what I read really alienated his OL

We had the same thing in Frank Verducci..a guy who tried to incorporate zone blocking with the piledriving man to man blockers we had on the team..injuries also ravaged our team that year...I believe we had 11 different OL combinations that year

Now Coslet and Spurrier were just flat out bad play callers...Spurrier just didnt seem to appreciate the run game @ all...losing Davis reaally hurt

I was also critical of you guys giving up Bailey and a 2nd round pick for Portis..(and for that Matter a 3rd and a ridiculous contract for Brunnel)

Steven Jackson would have been a super fit for Gibbs and his system...Jackson slipped all the way to 26 to the Rams. With a 2nd and 3rd rounder, you guys would have had the ammo to move up 12 or 13 spots to go and nab him Now, and this is no knock on Portis, but a knock to Snyder and Cerrato, Jackson would have come a HECK of a lot cheaper too.

The real slap in the face was when Kerry Collins was released..you guys could have had him without giving up a draft pick and for 1/2 the price of Brunnel

Again, just my humble opinion

redrock-skins · 08-29-2004, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by la73hof

The real slap in the face was when Kerry Collins was released..you guys could have had him without giving up a draft pick and for 1/2 the price of Brunnel

Again, just my humble opinion

Good point. I am not against Brunell, but man we gave him a ton of money.

JudgeJebus · 08-29-2004, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redrock-skins

Good point. I am not against Brunell, but man we gave him a ton of money.

I agree completely. We needed a good, proven QB, but it shouldn't have cost that much...

offiss · 08-29-2004, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by la73hof

Gentlemen, Ramsey reminds me a whole lot of Chad Hutchinson coming off his '02 season..

Hutchinson was thrown to the wolves with perhaps the worst OL in Cowboys history giving up 54 sacks..I mean it was awful..when Hutch wasnt sacked he was getting plastered.

I believe that season ruined Hutch..he was shellshocked..Hutch developed a case of happy feet after that. Thje only thing we learned about Hutch is he was one tough SOB

Hutch got beat out by QuINTcy last year and was released this offseason after only a so-so showing in Europe

2 more simliarities between the '02 Cowboys and '03 Skins were the OL coach and the OC

In Helton, you seemed to have a guy whose system who didnt didnt fit the personnel he had. Did the skins even pull their guard the last 2 years? Thomas has excellent mobility but wasnt used in this capacity. Helton, from what I read really alienated his OL

We had the same thing in Frank Verducci..a guy who tried to incorporate zone blocking with the piledriving man to man blockers we had on the team..injuries also ravaged our team that year...I believe we had 11 different OL combinations that year

Now Coslet and Spurrier were just flat out bad play callers...Spurrier just didnt seem to appreciate the run game @ all...losing Davis reaally hurt

I was also critical of you guys giving up Bailey and a 2nd round pick for Portis..(and for that Matter a 3rd and a ridiculous contract for Brunnel)

Steven Jackson would have been a super fit for Gibbs and his system...Jackson slipped all the way to 26 to the Rams. With a 2nd and 3rd rounder, you guys would have had the ammo to move up 12 or 13 spots to go and nab him Now, and this is no knock on Portis, but a knock to Snyder and Cerrato, Jackson would have come a HECK of a lot cheaper too.

The real slap in the face was when Kerry Collins was released..you guys could have had him without giving up a draft pick and for 1/2 the price of Brunnel

Again, just my humble opinion

So you have a problem with Hutchinson's happy feet, which by the way Ramsey doesn't have, and you want Collin's? The king of happy feet. Anyone who would put Ramsey in the same catagory as Hutchinson, hasen't watched a whole lot of football, the fact is, Hutchinson is a lowsy football player, And the fact is Ramsey is learning a whole new system, and not only does he have to learn a new system, the coach is running a very simple version of that system, which is allowing defenses to read and react better, this wont happen in the regular season, to judge Ramsey right now as a failure, is to not have a clue about Joe Gibb's, and how he run's his pre-season, under Gibb's the skin's are one of the worst pre-season team's in the league, 0-5 and a SB victory, and he's still fooling people, infact William's couldn't keep his mouth shut about it, he was trying to defend why we were beat so bad, Gibb's loves to play the underdog and he's setting that up, and then everyone will realize pre-season doesn't mean jack in the win lose catagory, By the way how did the 13 year veteran Brunnell look in that offense the other night? Exept for 1 long TD pass to McCant's this pre-season, he hasen't looked much better than Ramsey.

As for Portis, are we to believe that stephen Jackson is on the same level as Portis, he ran against a lot of scrub's the other night, I didn't see a whole lot to make me think this kid will be an elite back? There is a reason he fell so far, with team's like the eagles and cowboy's desperate for a running back passed on him, we did give up to much for portis, the second round pick was to much, but everyone look's at this deal as Champ being a hall of fame CB, and he's not that kind of talent, he was beat many a time playing for us, case and point, everyone in denver keep's talking about using Champ on offense, and kick return's, good luck, he was awful any time we used him on special's when he handled the ball, the guy couldn't catch, I think Champ is a product of more hype than substance, He's no Daryl Green, or Deion, or Haines, or any of the other elite CB's to have played the game, Spring's so long as he stay's healthy, will replace him no problem,

la73hof · 08-29-2004, 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by offiss

So you have a problem with Hutchinson's happy feet, which by the way Ramsey doesn't have, and you want Collin's? The king of happy feet. Anyone who would put Ramsey in the same catagory as Hutchinson, hasen't watched a whole lot of football, the fact is, Hutchinson is a lowsy football player, And the fact is Ramsey is learning a whole new system, and not only does he have to learn a new system, the coach is running a very simple version of that system, which is allowing defenses to read and react better, this wont happen in the regular season, to judge Ramsey right now as a failure, is to not have a clue about Joe Gibb's, and how he run's his pre-season, under Gibb's the skin's are one of the worst pre-season team's in the league, 0-5 and a SB victory, and he's still fooling people, infact William's couldn't keep his mouth shut about it, he was trying to defend why we were beat so bad, Gibb's loves to play the underdog and he's setting that up, and then everyone will realize pre-season doesn't mean jack in the win lose catagory, By the way how did the 13 year veteran Brunnell look in that offense the other night? Exept for 1 long TD pass to McCant's this pre-season, he hasen't looked much better than Ramsey.

As for Portis, are we to believe that stephen Jackson is on the same level as Portis, he ran against a lot of scrub's the other night, I didn't see a whole lot to make me think this kid will be an elite back? There is a reason he fell so far, with team's like the eagles and cowboy's desperate for a running back passed on him, we did give up to much for portis, the second round pick was to much, but everyone look's at this deal as Champ being a hall of fame CB, and he's not that kind of talent, he was beat many a time playing for us, case and point, everyone in denver keep's talking about using Champ on offense, and kick return's, good luck, he was awful any time we used him on special's when he handled the ball, the guy couldn't catch, I think Champ is a product of more hype than substance, He's no Daryl Green, or Deion, or Haines, or any of the other elite CB's to have played the game, Spring's so long as he stay's healthy, will replace him no problem,

I just have a difference in Philosophy here..and see this from my angle
..from a cap number/draft selection given up philosophy

Is Portis, along with his 8 year, 50 million contract along with 10 or so mill signing bonus along with giving up Bailey and a 2 a better deal than keeping your 2nd, (by not trading CB) your 3rd ( but being patient for a vet QB to become available and then using your 2nd and 3rd to move up and draft Jackson, who comes with a cap number a lot less than Portis, especially after year 3 of the contract and beyond?

Now, I understand Bailey would have gotten Portis money and them some, but what would you rather have --Bailey/Jackson/Collins or Portis/Springs/Brunnel?

How about a Taylor and Jackson for your efforts in the 1st?

The consider the system Gibbs has up there..what kind of backs have thrived?
Gibbs has never had a smaller, shiftier back..always a plowhorse when things were at their peak ala Riggins and Gerald Riggs

We the Eagles werent as desparate for Jackson..they already had Wesbrook and @ the time a healthy Buckhalter..they got the guy they coveted..Andrews by giving swapping 1st's and giving up up a 2nd to SF to secure him

Wile Jackson was a good prospect, he wasnt an elite prospect...our scouting dept had Jackson, Kevin Jones and Julius Jones rated as nearly the same (with K Jones being the #1 back)..so picking up a #1 next year made the decision easy

I just dont see that much of a difference between Collins and Brunnel

Im not saying Brunnel isnt a better QB because he is..his career stats prove it ..But to the tune of is he 6 years, 43 mil with a healthy SB and a 3nd round draft pick better?

No way

Collins behind an effective offensive line is a good QB..as witness by his Super Bowl season 4 years ago and just 2 years ago when the Giants offense was extremely effective and got them to the playoffs before the Giants D collapased with a 38-14 lead

I just dont like the way My Snyder is mortgages the future...just like JJ used too up until 4 years ago

the LB spot..you guys have 3 very good LB's but have a very average DL. The LB's could have a tough time because of the play of the DL if opposing OL are getting out to your LB's

And if the DL isnt getting to the QB, and LB's are being blitzed, the secondary is gonna receive plenty of attention

Bailey wasnt as good as all the hype he received, but he was still a very good player.

Smoot isnt Bailey...and either is Springs althoug I agree with your take on Springs..if healthy and he remains healthy he's gonna make plays

And as good as Taylor is gonna be, he cant cover everyone

Daseal · 08-28-2004, 11:35 PM

Well, when Miami wanted Ramsey, yes he would have. A strong TE, an elite Running back, and a pro-bowl callibre receiver. Ricky Williams alone could have helped Ramsey develop making teams be cautious with the blitz.

I'm glad we still have him, but back then Miami would have been a good option.

08-28-2004, 11:47 PM	#10
la73hof Special Teams Join Date: May 2004 Location: Naples, Florida Age: 52 Posts: 420	Gentlemen, Ramsey reminds me a whole lot of Chad Hutchinson coming off his '02 season.. Hutchinson was thrown to the wolves with perhaps the worst OL in Cowboys history giving up 54 sacks..I mean it was awful..when Hutch wasnt sacked he was getting plastered. I believe that season ruined Hutch..he was shellshocked..Hutch developed a case of happy feet after that. Thje only thing we learned about Hutch is he was one tough SOB Hutch got beat out by QuINTcy last year and was released this offseason after only a so-so showing in Europe 2 more simliarities between the '02 Cowboys and '03 Skins were the OL coach and the OC In Helton, you seemed to have a guy whose system who didnt didnt fit the personnel he had. Did the skins even pull their guard the last 2 years? Thomas has excellent mobility but wasnt used in this capacity. Helton, from what I read really alienated his OL We had the same thing in Frank Verducci..a guy who tried to incorporate zone blocking with the piledriving man to man blockers we had on the team..injuries also ravaged our team that year...I believe we had 11 different OL combinations that year Now Coslet and Spurrier were just flat out bad play callers...Spurrier just didnt seem to appreciate the run game @ all...losing Davis reaally hurt I was also critical of you guys giving up Bailey and a 2nd round pick for Portis..(and for that Matter a 3rd and a ridiculous contract for Brunnel) Steven Jackson would have been a super fit for Gibbs and his system...Jackson slipped all the way to 26 to the Rams. With a 2nd and 3rd rounder, you guys would have had the ammo to move up 12 or 13 spots to go and nab him Now, and this is no knock on Portis, but a knock to Snyder and Cerrato, Jackson would have come a HECK of a lot cheaper too. The real slap in the face was when Kerry Collins was released..you guys could have had him without giving up a draft pick and for 1/2 the price of Brunnel Again, just my humble opinion __________________ "I'll go on the record that i am a LA fan"--redsk1 Thanks!

08-28-2004, 08:10 PM	#1
SmootSmack Uncle Phil Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 45,256	The Ramsey Dilemma So it's pretty apparent that Ramsey hasn't done anything to earn Gibbs' trust as a starting QB to start the season. Some guys on ESPN say that they think Ramsey will finish the season but that Gibbs wants Brunell early on in the season to basically serve as on-field coach until Gibbs settles back into the NFL-and its new substitution rules since he left. Here's the thing though. To me the biggest difference is not the talent. Put them in a straight throwing competition and I'm sure Ramsey wins just about every time. But it's the intangibles-checking off receivers, knowing when to throw the ball away, etc. All that comes from experience. So here's the Catch-22 then. Ramsey can't become better if he's not playing can he? Practice can only do so much and yet we can't really afford to have him on the field right now. Not the way he's been playing So what do you guys think? If you were Joe Gibbs-wouldn't that be sweet!-how do you help Ramsey become a better game day QB without sacrificing the team's immediate success? __________________ You're So Vain...You Probably Think This Sig Is About You

08-28-2004, 08:27 PM	#2
offiss Registered User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: sparta, new jersey [ northern jersey ] Age: 60 Posts: 3,097	You can develope a QB in practice, especially one who has in game expierience such as Ramsey, he know's the speed of the game, it's just a matter of him learning the offense, and trusting his reciever's in the new offense, once he feel's comfortable with that he will be fine, we also have to take into account matchup's in this competition, as well as we are very bland right now which is making the job of both QB's tougher.

08-28-2004, 08:42 PM	#3
Daseal Puppy Kicker Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Arlington, Virginia Age: 41 Posts: 8,341	I think that this season is extremely important for Ramsey. Once Brunnell is named the official starter and Ramsey can settle down and just be himself I'm curious how he'll play. He needs to get his habit of holding on too long and his slow release fixed. Let him watch Brunnell for a bit and settle in. If he still plays like this come the end of the season, I'm going to be curious if he is indeed the heir to this team.

08-28-2004, 09:31 PM	#4
EEich The Starter Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Bristol, CT Age: 60 Posts: 1,001	One thing for sure is that Gibbs does not like to lose, thinks this team can win now and won't play Ramsey before he's ready. That's why he brought in Brunnell. Give Joe some credit for recognizing early that he needed a veteran until Ramsey is ready. Gibbs is patient developing QBs and Patrick is more gifted than any of the 3 QBs that Joe took to the Superbowl. Ramsey will be a Superbowl winner someday. We have to be patient too.

08-28-2004, 10:44 PM	#5
Shane Special Teams Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 277	"The realization is growing that, relative to most quarterbacks his age, Ramsey has had very rudimentary football schooling. In high school, he was nationally known as a javelin thrower as much or more than a quarterback. At Tulane, hardly a college power, he spent most of his time proving his courage behind poor offensive lines. Then, finally, as a Redskin, he spent two years of his career learning the one offensive system on the planet that is of no use whatsoever to an NFL quarterback: Steve Spurrier's chuck 'n' duck" (Thomas Boswell) http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...?nav=headlines I am beginning to think that Patrick Ramsey may have had it right when he made noises about wanting to be traded after Mark Brunell arrived. The Redskins are in a big push to win as soon as possible. Can Ramsey learn fast enough? Time will tell. I think Ramsey would be better off playing for a team that is not in the race for the playoffs, who need to develop a young quarterback, and who might give him some starts.

08-28-2004, 10:56 PM	#6
EEich The Starter Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Bristol, CT Age: 60 Posts: 1,001	Why does Ramsey have to start now? Why would it be better for him somewhere else? He's in a no pressure situation this year. He's being tutored by a Hall of Fame coach. Would he be better off in Arizona or San Diego getting pummeled starting for a losing team? I think he got plenty of that last year and he's no better for it.

08-28-2004, 11:04 PM	#7
Daseal Puppy Kicker Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Arlington, Virginia Age: 41 Posts: 8,341	The team that wanted Ramsey wasn't exactly Arizona or San Diego. It was Miami.

08-28-2004, 11:33 PM	#9
Shane Special Teams Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 277	I think he would be better off with another team, like Miami, because I am skeptical that he is going to learn the ropes fast enough to fit with the Redskins' agenda. We want to win a Super Bowl sooner rather than later and I don't think people will have the patience to wait for Ramsey to develop - if he ever does adequately, which is not a guarantee. Ramsey might be better off with a team that isn't going to feel like its title hopes would be jeopardized by letting him grow into the job. He does have good character and plenty of talent, but his experience is very limited, as Boswell points out. Besides the development issues for him, I don't know if his confidence is very high right now and that can translate into leadership issues if he were called into action. If he isn't sure of himself in this system, how can he inspire others to believe positive things are going to happpen when he gets into the huddle?

08-28-2004, 11:35 PM	#15
Daseal Puppy Kicker Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Arlington, Virginia Age: 41 Posts: 8,341	Well, when Miami wanted Ramsey, yes he would have. A strong TE, an elite Running back, and a pro-bowl callibre receiver. Ricky Williams alone could have helped Ramsey develop making teams be cautious with the blitz. I'm glad we still have him, but back then Miami would have been a good option.

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