Brooks vs. Frost and 80 is Enough(?)

[J. Spanky]

the new 80 man roster limit has many, if not most, teams lamenting that they can afford to have only one kicker, one long snapper and one punter at training camp. the redskins currently have incumbent punter derek frost and 6th round draft pick punter durrant brooks.

danny smith, the special teams coordinator, has stated that brooks was brought in to provide competition to the position (frost was the only punter at camp last offseason and had an inconsistent, at best, season). but when one considers the prodigious talent that brooks possesses and the fact that the team made the unusual move of spending a draft pick on a punter to get him, it begs the question: does frost actually have a chance to win the job?

washington currently has starters at some key positions rehabbing major injuries. combine that with the fact that roster spots reserved for nfl europa players is a luxury teams no longer have, depth is now more important than ever. are the redskins being irresponsible by keeping frost on board when he is (at least apparently) not in the team’s long term plans? or, if they intend to cut frost before training camp, why haven’t they done so already? the longer they wait, the less chance he has of finding work elsewhere. would it not be better to use the spot on a player at another thin position (interior o-line, outside linebacker, fullback, etc.), focus on brooks and allow frost to find a job with another team? is there any chance that frost has some trade value?

i know its gotta be the slow time of year when i’m making a thread about punters. But c’mon – there’s like a 15 page thread about erasmus james…

thoughts?

[Schneed10]

Actually this is a good thread IMO. We haven't talked about the impact of the 80 man roster around here yet.

It will be interesting to see how certain players recover from injuries. If we have some starters/high draft picks who still need to sit come the time camp opens, it will further increase the need to find as much roster space as possible. The more guys hurt going into camp, the greater chance that Frost has of getting the boot.

Ideally I'd like to see a competition, but if forced to choose my punter right now, I'd definitely go with Brooks. It's hard to imagine any scenario where Brooks performs worse than Frost this season. Punting is a skill that easily translates from college to the pros. I can't see any reason why Brooks wouldn't beat out Frost eventually anyway.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Actually this is a good thread IMO.

Whew - the Warpath collectively lets out a sigh of relief as the thread has the official Schneed10 Seal of Approval.

More threads need the "SchneedSeal"

Now on to actual discussion:

As to the punting duel - While punting may transfer easily, I am not so sure Brooks will be a lock. It seems to me that many a punter makes it with his 2nd, 3rd or 4th team out of college. If punting is so transferable, why does it take multiple teams? - Is the time to punt shorter in the NFL? Do punters take a deeper drop in the NFL? Does the ball come to the punter faster from an NFL long snapper than from a College long snapper?

I was all set to say that punters usually bounce around before they are successful. Then I did some research on punters drafted between 199-2007.

THE FOLLOWING PUNTERS STARTED THE FIRST GAME WITH THE TEAM THAT DRAFTED THEM AND ARE STILL THE STARTING PUNTER FOR THAT TEAM:

(Year/Round Drafted)
2007
4 Adam Podlesh, Jaguars
4 Daniel Sepulveda, Steelers
7 Brandon Fields, Dolphins

2006
6 Sam Koch, Ravens
7 Ryan Plackemeier, Seahawks

2005
3 Dustin Colquitt, Chiefs

2004
6 Andy Lee, 49ers

2003
5 Mike Scifres, Chargers

2000
5 Shane Lechler, Raiders

THE FOLLOWING PUNTERS ARE CURRENTLY STARTERS FOR TEAMS THAT DID NOT ORIGINALLY DRAFT THEM:

2004
7 Donnie Jones, Seahawks - Cut mid-year 2004 by Seattle, played 2005 & 2006 for Miami, in 2007 put up really good numbers as starting punter for the Rams.

2002
4 Dave Zastudil, Ravens – Started 4 years for the Ravens and then signed away by the Browns as a UFA, 2 year starter for the Browns.

2001
4 Nick Harris, Broncos – Started 2001, 2002 and 2003 with Bengals, To Detroit mid-year 2003 (not sure if it was by trade or waiver wire) and has been starter for Detroit ever since.

1999
4 Josh Bidwell, Packers - Started 4 years for Packers and then signed away by the T. Bay as a UFA, current punter for the Bucs.

THE FOLLOWING DRAFTED PUNTERS ARE OUT OF THE NFL:

2005
6 Reggie Hodges, Rams - Cut mid-year 2005.

2004
3 B.J. Sanders, Packers - Cut mid-year 2004.

2003
6 Eddie Johnson, Vikings – Cut 14th game of 2003 Season.

2002
6 Caig Jarrett, Seahawks - Cut 4th game of 2002 Season

1999
6 Brent Bartholomew, Dolphins - Played two games with the Dolphins in 1999 and seven games with the Bears in 2000.

7 Rodney Williams, Rams – Played 15 games for the Giants in 2001.

Thus, of the 19 punters drafted between 1999 and 2007, thirteen are still in the league including nine that are still starting for the team that drafted them. Four of the nineteen are still starters in the league but just for different teams. Of the four who are starting for new teams, two were signed away as UFA’s at the expiration of their rookie contracts and one has punted for only two teams. Only six are entirely out of football and, interestingly, none of these six lasted more than a year.

Thus, it seems to me, drafted punters are pretty safe bets to make it with their first team (11 of 19 is pretty good odds). Further, even if Brooks doesn’t cut it, then it will show up pretty quickly and we can probably pick Frost right back up (or just have him pull a hamstring before training camp and keep him on IR for a year as an insurance policy).

At the same time, the only punter listed as a UFA is Mitch “Boy, am I ancient” Berger.

So, in order to make the best use of the 80 man roster, and in light of the history of drafted punters, cut or stash Frost and use the roster spot on someone who can take some reps in practice. Taking this course may be dangerous if Brooks is one of the minority of drafted punters who can’t make it in the NFL as there is not a lot of veteran punters to choose from.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

As to the punting duel - While punting may transfer easily, I am not so sure Brooks will be a lock. It seems to me that many a punter makes it with his 2nd, 3rd or 4th team out of college. If punting is so transferable, why does it take multiple teams? - Is the time to punt shorter in the NFL? Do punters take a deeper drop in the NFL? Does the ball come to the punter faster from an NFL long snapper than from a College long snapper?

Meant to modify this before posting but didn't realize it had been left in, I had drafted this prior to research and accidently left in post research. Here is what I meant to say in this paragraph (post research):

"Given the history of drafted punters, Brooks is likely to be our punter for some time. A not insignificant number of drafted punters do have a problem transferring their skills from college to NFL so Brooks may not be a lock. Some good college punters fail in the NFL, it maybe because: the time to punt is shorter in the NFL; punters may take a deeper drop in the NFL; or the ball come to the punter faster from an NFL long snapper than from a College long snapper. Any of these may screw with a punter's timing. Additionally, punters and kickers are notorious head cases, some college punters just may not be able to step it up in the big leagues. With all that said, however, the odds on Brooks being the long term answer are pretty good. "

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

7 Rodney Williams, Rams – Played 15 games for the Giants in 2001.

Good post.

I always wondered what happened to Williams. I seem to recall him booming a 70+ yarder and everyone thinking he was the next great punter (if there is such a thing). Then he would put up a 5 yard punt.
The kid could kick, that's for sure, but amazingly inconsistant.

[tryfuhl]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Punting is a skill that easily translates from college to the pros. I can't see any reason why Brooks wouldn't beat out Frost eventually anyway.

I'm not sure I'd agree fully there. A lot of college kickers that have power legs get away with it in college, there are a lot of teams in the NCAA and not so many in the NFL. Not everyone in college is a great directional kicker (aka kick it AWAY from Hester) nor can do the pooch punts to land it where needed. Granted, I don't think that we'll have as much of an issue with that with Brooks, as he showed he was solid landing it within the 20. Don't know about his direction, but he got the Ray Guy award so he can't just be ALL power.

[steveo395]

Some teams have kept two kickers and a punter on the 53 man roster, and had all 3 active on game day. If they can do that, we can keep 2 punters on an 80 man roster. This is not a problem.

[J. Spanky]

Originally Posted by steveo395

Some teams have kept two kickers and a punter on the 53 man roster, and had all 3 active on game day. If they can do that, we can keep 2 punters on an 80 man roster. This is not a problem.

well, i know for certain (or at least from what i've read) that bill polian, jerry jones, john fox and many others would disagree...

[Schneed10]

I think I read somewhere (can't remember where, unfortunately) that Danny Smith said (paraphrasing):

With punters, there are about 10 in the league who stand out, and then the rest are just a bunch of guys. Derrick is a guy.

And adding to that, there aren't just 22 "guys" who can punt. There are probably 30-40. Given that, you can certainly let Frost go. Chances are he'll still be available if you need him, or at minimum, a "guy" like him will be available.

Brooks gives you that upside. He's got the potential to join the 10 who stand out. We already know that Frost doesn't stand out.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I think I read somewhere (can't remember where, unfortunately) that Danny Smith said (paraphrasing):



And adding to that, there aren't just 22 "guys" who can punt. There are probably 30-40. Given that, you can certainly let Frost go. Chances are he'll still be available if you need him, or at minimum, a "guy" like him will be available.

Brooks gives you that upside. He's got the potential to join the 10 who stand out. We already know that Frost doesn't stand out.

Yeah, I think this is probably true. Cut Frost, let Brooks work with the first team and, if he bombs, pick up "a guy" from somewhere. Use the space on a lineman (offense or defense) to give some rest to our starters.

[J. Spanky]

wow. that was some research right there, joeredskin.

you, sir, are a gentelman AND a scholar.

[Gmanc711]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Yeah, I think this is probably true. Cut Frost, let Brooks work with the first team and, if he bombs, pick up "a guy" from somewhere. Use the space on a lineman (offense or defense) to give some rest to our starters.

Or just resign Frost, I really dont think there is going to be a high demand for the guy. He should be avalible I would think at the start of the season if we need.

[JoeRedskin]

Thank you.

[EXoffender]

Good thread. Brooks will make the team. We drafted him pretty high for a punter too.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by EXoffender

Good thread. Brooks will make the team. We drafted him pretty high for a punter too.

Actually we drafted him a round later than the average place to pick a punter.

19 punters since 1999, by round chosen:

3rd: 2
4th: 5
5th: 2
6th: 6
7th: 4

The average place to chose a punter being somewhere inthe 5th round.

The median point being somewhere in the 6th round (9 chosen in higher than the sixth round, 10 chosen in the sixth or seventh round).