It's Talent, Not Coaching.

[Bushead]

I understand it is a tough loss, and this season didn't turn out to be a Cinderella story where the redskins made the playoffs on a magical 5 - 0 run, but how can so many of you be calling for Mike Shanahan or Hastlett to be gone?

The number one problem with the redskins has been the constant change. With each coach, comes a philosophy. They then and try and shift the roster towards that. With changing every two years, we never give a coach a chance to get the team he wants.

To all the people who want the coaches to be fired, or that you have "lost faith" in their ability to lead a team, prove to me how it is not talent but coaching. I think it's crazy after how each year the redskins are a circus because of new coach, new system that people are so quick to want that all over again. Please prove to me how these following points aren't true about our offense or team overall:

1) We cut ten of our oldest players and somehow are still the oldest team in football. That is quite a serious statement of the lack of youth. Not only that, but none of them really got picked up except Randel-El and Betts.

2) Offense: Name a top 10 player at any position? Cooley. That's it. Our number 1 wide receiver would be a number 3 wide receiver on another team, seriously. Moss has lost a lot of speed and he's a speed receiver - how can he be effective? Seeing that he's our number one should show how bad we are off. Not to mention Joey Galloway being able to crack a starting role.

The whole offensive line has been rebuilt from last year, with Rabach being the only returner (which should tell you how bad it's been). The offensive line simply isn't good. As we all know, that's where it all gets started for an offense.

We were thin at Running back to begin the year, and now we are down to a 3rd down back who wasn't even a full-time starter in college.

Do you expect with such a poor offensive line and WRs who would be backups everywhere else, and a RB that wasn't even on the roster starting day that this offense was going to be a juggernaut?

3) Depth: When a team becomes really good IMO is when you have a certain depth that allows constant match up problems. You have the speedy receiver and a tall one. You have a great Jumbo Package as well as a good Screen set-up, you have a RB that can bruise and one that can take it the distance, etc.

This team simply does not have that. There aren't any play makers that scare the other team. Santana isn't going to burn defenses anymore. There isn't any tall possession receivers to count on. There isn't a variety of RBs to count on to do different things.

4) Comparison: Let's look at Philadelphia. Jackson, Macklin, Avant all playing WR and are all Playmakers with the ability to stretch the field and make catches. They have someone speedy and someone more tall and athletic. Santana Moss, our NUMBER ONE, would be playing NUMBER FOUR, on this team. Think of that.

McCoy is an amazing cut back and agile guy. They can use a lot of screens and he is a threat to take it the distance. They have a strong Tight End who is a good pass catcher. They have a solid offensive line that opens up holes for the RBs and gives whomever is back there time to throw.

So how do you cover Three Wide Receiver Sets? Your Safeties have to play deep so you don't get beat by Desean, so Avant and Macklin get covered by back up CBs because in one-on-one match ups because of the deep threat, you have McCoy who can catch out of the back field and go the distance and then there is Celek who can come out of the backfield or play on the line for a solid gain.

That's a ton of pressure to put on a defense.

Needless to say, we could have anyone coach this team, and what do you really expect them to get from it?

[Texanskin]

good points....we are in year one of a coach that has a proven record of winning by implementing his footprint on the organization.

[SouperMeister]

I agree that we have a lack of overall talent and depth, but I don't pardon Shanahan from fault entirely. He took a consistently solid 4-3 defense, and broke it. The genius of Joe Gibbs was that he adjusted his philosophy to fit the strengths of his personnel. Shanahan has demonstrated an inflexibility that is exasperating at times. I think he should fire his son before he fires Haslett.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by SouperMeister

I agree that we have a lack of overall talent and depth, but I don't pardon Shanahan from fault entirely. He took a consistently solid 4-3 defense, and broke it. The genius of Joe Gibbs was that he adjusted his philosophy to fit the strengths of his personnel. Shanahan has demonstrated an inflexibility that is exasperating at times. I think he should fire his son before he fires Haslett.

See, I just don't agree with this at all. People seem to think that if it weren't for Jim Haslett and occasional use of the 3 - 4, the D would be back to top ten form.

The guys we have playing defense aren't that good, the players who were good in seasons past are deteriorating, and it wouldn't matter if we had Greg Blache or Gregg Williams running the 4 -3 100% of the time -- I maintain that the D would be just as bad either way.

[SirClintonPortis]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

See, I just don't agree with this at all. People seem to think that if it weren't for Jim Haslett and occasional use of the 3 - 4, the D would be back to top ten form.

The guys we have playing defense aren't that good, the players who were good in seasons past are deteriorating, and it wouldn't matter if we had Greg Blache or Gregg Williams running the 4 -3 100% of the time -- I maintain that the D would be just as bad either way.

This assumes that 4-3 players and 3-4 players are perfectly interchangeable.
Essentially, your saying a lot of the guys here can't play football at all. However, Rocky Mac and Andre Carter have proven themselves as capable of playing in a 4-3 but have struggled in the 3-4. The secondary is not much different outside of Landry, but thanks to Landry, they have actually improved.

The players in the front 7 are a misfit for the 3-4 for the most and that's why this D has sucked. The 3-4 requires its Dlinemen LB to have a specific mental and physical skillsets or else face "Swiss cheese" syndrome.

To start, not having a nose tackle is death for a 3-4 because the O-linemen who gets to block a LB have a huge advantage in their favor. Our NT is inconsistent and thus our LBs have suffered.
The other 3-4 Dlinemen all have to be big powerful space eaters. Carriker fits, but Golston did not. Golston is not very good, but being a filler run stuffer suits him better than being a guy trying to emulate Haloti Ngata and "control" the olineman l. His mediocre play has been turned into horrid play because of the switch to the 3-4.

And AH drew more than enough double teams last season. He also played 70% of his snaps, which was more than the 60% of snaps in Tennessee.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by SirClintonPortis

This assumes that 4-3 players and 3-4 players are perfectly interchangeable.Essentially, your saying a lot of the guys here can't play football at all. However, Rocky Mac and Andre Carter have proven themselves as capable of playing in a 4-3 but have struggled in the 3-4. The secondary is not much different outside of Landry, but thanks to Landry, they have actually improved.

The players in the front 7 are a misfit for the 3-4 for the most and that's why this D has sucked. The 3-4 requires its Dlinemen LB to have a specific mental and physical skillsets or else face "Swiss cheese" syndrome.

To start, not having a nose tackle is death for a 3-4 because the O-linemen who gets to block a LB have a huge advantage in their favor. Our NT is inconsistent and thus our LBs have suffered.
The other 3-4 Dlinemen all have to be big powerful space eaters. Carriker fits, but Golston did not. Golston is not very good, but being a filler run stuffer suits him better than being a guy trying to emulate Haloti Ngata and "control" the olineman l. His mediocre play has been turned into horrid play because of the switch to the 3-4.

And AH drew more than enough double teams last season. He also played 70% of his snaps, which was more than the 60% of snaps in Tennessee.

No it doesn't. I'm saying -- and I thought I made this pretty clear -- that whether we're in the 3-4 or 4-3, the players we have just aren't that good. That whatever success we've had in the past was bound to start going downhill. That no matter what sort of alignment they're in or what scheme or system that's in place, we'd be in just about the same shitty statistical situation.

Again, people seem to believe that all we have to do is fire Jim Haslett and go back to the 4-3 and everything will be fine. I just don't buy it.

[Coff]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

No it doesn't. I'm saying -- and I thought I made this pretty clear -- that whether we're in the 3-4 or 4-3, the players we have just aren't that good. That whatever success we've had in the past was bound to start going downhill. That no matter what sort of alignment they're in or what scheme or system that's in place, we'd be in just about the same shitty statistical situation.

Again, people seem to believe that all we have to do is fire Jim Haslett and go back to the 4-3 and everything will be fine. I just don't buy it.

But the defense was good last year. And very good the year before. I'm not jumping on the "fire Haslett" bandwagon just yet, but you can't honestly compare this year's defense to last year's and say that the coaching has nothing to do with the difference. The personnel is nearly identical; the scheme is what has changed; and we've gone from 10th in the league to 32nd. (And thankfully there are only 32 teams in the league.)

Perhaps the difference is just the growing pains of learning a new system, perhaps the difference is just bad luck. Who knows? But the one consistency on defense between last year and this year is the players, so you can't say the players are the reason this defense is terrible.

[SirClintonPortis]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

No it doesn't. I'm saying -- and I thought I made this pretty clear -- that whether we're in the 3-4 or 4-3, the players we have just aren't that good. That whatever success we've had in the past was bound to start going downhill. That no matter what sort of alignment they're in or what scheme or system that's in place, we'd be in just about the same shitty statistical situation.

Again, people seem to believe that all we have to do is fire Jim Haslett and go back to the 4-3 and everything will be fine. I just don't buy it.

Well, I'm not buying what you're selling that everyone on the D simply sucks because of the players being oh so horrible, especially since a good deal of the defense sucking last year was because of LaRon Landry, who is our most improved player this year. Not only that, I've cited at three guys who have had at least some success in the 4-3 and now are falling like rocks thanks to the 3-4. The aspect of the D that has stayed mostly the same is the secondary outside of Landry. And anyone with a brain(i.e Spags) would have put LL in the strong safety role.

You can't have it both ways. There is AMPLE evidence of stud 4-3 players sucking in a 3-4 and vice versa.

[44ever]

Originally Posted by SouperMeister

I agree that we have a lack of overall talent and depth, but I don't pardon Shanahan from fault entirely. He took a consistently solid 4-3 defense, and broke it. The genius of Joe Gibbs was that he adjusted his philosophy to fit the strengths of his personnel. Shanahan has demonstrated an inflexibility that is exasperating at times. I think he should fire his son before he fires Haslett.

This^^^

And in fairness to Haslett, How would you like to be Haslett and not be allowed to play AH? He has almost nothing to work with. Thats on Shanny.

[SirClintonPortis]

Mike Shanahan the GM is who I have the most issues with. His coaching has been good, for the most part. However, whoever is responsible for coaching tackling for the D needs to be schooled or fired.

[mooby]

I think you keep underrating Moss as so many others on this forum have, but you make a good point. Look at the guys playing for us now, and I'll point out exactly what guys that are starting now on our team probably don't need to be starting and what holes will need to be filled going into next season. Don't create a hole with Moss where it doesn't exist. Moss is about the closest thing to dependable as a receiver is on this team. His big plays obviously haven't been many recently, but he is consistent. All this talk about how he would be a #4 on the Eagles is completely stupid.

On offense, yes, we have a lack of a talent.

QB: I'd trade Rex or Beck for a rookie quarterback that we draft after this season, especially since there will be quite a decent pool of good qb's in the draft this year. We all know McNabb will be back next year and for future seasons.

RB: I don't put much emphasis on this position, I don't know what direction they will go with this next year. We might see Williams/Torain/Portis/Davis in the backfield next year, if the coaches determine the offensive line is a bigger problem than the running backs in the backfield. Right now I think the coaches are trying to judge who to keep between James Davis, Torain, and Williams. It doesn't help that Torain isn't on the field right now because the coaches' recent comments haven't been in his favor. And same goes for Portis, he will definitely be on the block after this season, unless the coaches determine he's put in the work again and deserves another shot with the Skins. Or he might not get healthy and the coaches will dump him. There's def. question marks at this position heading into next year.

FB: I want to dump Mike Sellers. Idk about the coaches, I mean he's a decent pass catcher but he has too many drops for my liking and his blocking is hit or miss, literally. I either see him deliver a great block or whiff completely and look the fool. He's not consistent anymore.

WR: Moss should stay, as will Armstrong. Banks will def. stay as well. I'd like to see Armstrong more as a #3, and maybe we could get a young talented wideout to step into the #2 role like Dez Bryant in Dallas. Roydell Williams can go for all I care, and Terrance Austin is a question mark.

TE: I think Cooley will be traded. We need the picks, he's expendable with Fred Davis on the roster, and I don't think the coaches will mind Logan Paulsen as the backup. TE is a position of luxury for us right now, and we aren't making the most of it.

Offensive line:

Starting 5: T.Williams will be staying obviously, I think we should upgrade the entire interior of the line (Lichtensteiger can go back to being a backup, Rabach can retire for all I care, and even though I like Will Montgomery I want a talent upgrade at the position. He can stay as a backup too). Jammal Brown can stay and start too, I want to see what he looks like when he's 100% healthy before we make a determination on him.

If Stephon Heyer is gone I won't be too disappointed, but he does offer a little value as a backup, so I wouldn't be suprised if he stayed. Dockery will be gone, and Artis Hicks can be a backup I suppose, although they might seek an upgrade for our depth.

Defense:

Starting Unit as of now:

Kareem Moore - can go back to being a backup. We need to seek a better option for free safety.
Laron Landry - staying obviously.
Carlos Rogers - I really hope he stays, he may not be a playmaker but he does a good job limiting opposing wideouts. If he goes that's just another hole we have to fill.
D.Hall - stays, he's the exact opposite of Rogers, in that he's a gambler, but he does make plays, as well as give up plays too.
Lorenzo Alexander - love ya, but I would seek a talent upgrade. He'd still be here obviously because he's very valuable with his skill set.
Rocky McIntosh - I heard he's trade bait, and I kinda won't be suprised if he's not here next season. He's a decent player, and he's had a couple games where he's made huge plays, but he's also had his share of disappointing moments. Potential hole to fill here.
Fletch - I'd keep him but draft a guy to eventually be his replacement.
Orakpo - Stays obviously, I think we need to get a playmaker to go on the other side to help because he's obviously frustrated that nobody else is stepping up while they are devoting all their attention to stopping him.
Adam Carriker - I don't think he's that bad (def. not eye-splitting good either) but we might seek a talent upgrade and put him in a depth role. He's probably the least of our worries on the d-line.
Ma'ake Kemoeatu/Albert Haynesworth - Kemoeatu needs to move to a depth role and I think we should all know by now that Haynesworth needs to go this offseason. We need a definite talent upgrade at the nose tackle position.
Golston/Daniels - I think we need another talent upgrade here too. Golston hasn't shown anything and I think Daniels might retire after this season, just judging from his comments in the article I posted earlier about Haynesworth. Golston might stay, or might not, idk, but he's another question mark either way.

Special Teams:

Kicker - Gano can stay. He's not the best, especially considering he's never hit a 50 yarder, but we can do worse. I'll start getting concerned when he starts shanking 20-30 yarders like Suisham used to do.

Punter: I don't think Hunter Smith has impressed since he came back, but we've got enough problems this offseason that coaches might let this one slide.

Long Snapper: Might see an upgrade, might not. I haven't exactly seen bad long-snapping from Sundberg yet, but I've heard about it in postgame comments. But obviously not a priority position heading into the offseason.

Coach wise the only one I can see being iffy is Haslett, simply because our defense has been historically bad this season. That and Shanny has always had a typically short leash with defensive coordinators, and combine that with Haslett not being his first choice.

So from my point of view it looks like the 'Skins will be seeing another roster turnover makeover this offseason. It remains to be seen what percentage of moves will be made through the draft and free agency (I'd prefer trying to get more picks and using the draft to fill the big needs, and using free agency sparingly) but as we all know that has never happened and it might stay that way this offseason.

[jamf]

Moss is our only player defenses game plan for. He is the reason Armstrong is facing single coverage. He's not Fitzgerald or Andre Johnson but he is the only weapon we have. It annoys me to hear the tall vs fast WR argument. How about we get guys who can play?

[sdskinsfan2001]

For next season the Redskins need to keep Trent Williams and bring up Selvish Capers/Erik Cook from the practice squad and release every other player on their O-Line. Then use their 1st and 2nd round picks on O-Lineman to get two more talented players. After the draft sign a bunch of young free agents and see if they can find any players to build some YOUNG depth. Till we get a solid O-Line our offense will continue to stink. We have to be able to run the ball to set up playaction and the longball.

[mooby]

Originally Posted by sdskinsfan2001

For next season the Redskins need to keep Trent Williams and bring up Selvish Capers/Erik Cook from the practice squad and release every other player on their O-Line. Then use their 1st and 2nd round picks on O-Lineman to get two more talented players. After the draft sign a bunch of young free agents and see if they can find any players to build some YOUNG depth. Till we get a solid O-Line our offense will continue to stink. We have to be able to run the ball to set up playaction and the longball.

Do you keep reposting this same post in every thread?

Edit: Wow lol, that is the 4th time you've reposted that same exact post. fail.

[CrustyRedskin]

[QUOTE=sdskinsfan2001;765954]For next season the Redskins need to keep Trent Williams and bring up Selvish Capers/Erik Cook from the practice squad and release every other player on their O-Line. Then use their 1st and 2nd round picks on O-Lineman to get two more talented players. After the draft sign a bunch of young free agents and see if they can find any players to build some YOUNG depth. Till we get a solid O-Line our offense will continue to stink. We have to be able to run the ball to set up playaction and the longball.[/QUOTe


Were the Skins thinking of getting rid of the ROOKIE Trent Williams???