What's the Bigger Problem?

memphisskin · 12-13-2004, 05:47 PM

I'm going to have to go with playcalling, because you cannot call what happens when our defense is on the sidelines execution. Can I vote both?

One deep throw, which turned out to be one too many. How many runs for Portis in the 2nd half and WTF was that toss on 3rd and short? The only thing worse than the playcalling was the execution. And I think I have to apologize to Webster's dictionary for even referring to that showing as execution.

I'm with Matty, no more references to Spurrier. I fully expect Gibbs to get these guys to execute. Please someone tell me that Mike Sellers is on the cut list today.

Daseal · 12-13-2004, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Why do we have to keep going back to Spurrier anyway?? Haven't we beat this issue in to the ground already? Let it go man, Gibbs is our head coach and Spurrier is back to college ball.

Matty, we're going the same route as Spurrier right now. Tons of close games, same type of record, etc. It looks very similar but the outlook on this board seems completely different. I don't understand it. No one wants to admit any wrongdoing on Gibbs part, and I think that's unfair to the players. I think a lot of time they did execute, but how many yards do you expect to get on a hitch pass?

BossHog · 12-14-2004, 02:45 PM

Well 47 yards of the penalties came on one play by Springs, the interference play, McNabb to Owens. The new rules have the already high flying offenses of last year well, flying higher. Do you think Peyton Manning could have broken Marino's record prior to this one's? And to think Harrison if having an 'off year'!?

skinsguy · 12-14-2004, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daseal

Matty, we're going the same route as Spurrier right now. Tons of close games, same type of record, etc. It looks very similar but the outlook on this board seems completely different. I don't understand it. No one wants to admit any wrongdoing on Gibbs part, and I think that's unfair to the players. I think a lot of time they did execute, but how many yards do you expect to get on a hitch pass?

Man, let it go already! Steve Spurrier is not the Redskins' coach anymore!

:smashfrea

SmootSmack · 12-14-2004, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daseal

Matty, we're going the same route as Spurrier right now. Tons of close games, same type of record, etc. It looks very similar but the outlook on this board seems completely different. I don't understand it. No one wants to admit any wrongdoing on Gibbs part, and I think that's unfair to the players. I think a lot of time they did execute, but how many yards do you expect to get on a hitch pass?

I guess we'll just have to see if Gibbs' team regresses the second year the way Spurrier's did

Either way, I think Gibbs gets a litle more leeway than Spurrier because Gibbs has proven that his method works in the NFL, Spurrier never proved that

But I think Matty and skinsguy said it best....let it go. By the way, have you joined a Gamecocks forum yet?

MTK · 12-14-2004, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daseal

Matty, we're going the same route as Spurrier right now. Tons of close games, same type of record, etc. It looks very similar but the outlook on this board seems completely different. I don't understand it. No one wants to admit any wrongdoing on Gibbs part, and I think that's unfair to the players. I think a lot of time they did execute, but how many yards do you expect to get on a hitch pass?

I really don't know where you're coming from when you say nobody wants to criticize Gibbs, that's just not true at all. We've all agreed clock mgmt has been a problem and at times, the playcalling as well. I don't understand why you think Gibbs gets a free pass here, he clearly doesn't.

As for that other guy I'm not going to mention by name anymore, these are completely different circumstances. I see the team slowly improving this year and playing with a lot more determination and heart, while last year things spun wildly out of control as the season wore on.

Like SS said, let's see where the team stands in year 2. I highly doubt we'll see them regress unlike last year.

biggirl · 12-14-2004, 07:01 PM

I am a huge Redskin fan, and I'm a Gibbs fan. My thought is although the end of the season record may look similar to the last couple of years, this team is so much better than it has been. The players have more heart than we've seen in a while. Spurrier had no control over the players...he didn't have their respect, and it showed. I think Gibbs showed what was what when he sat Sean Taylor after the DUI. I know I respected him for that. I know I have said it before, but I'll say it again...Joe Gibbs is just a man. There will be a learning curve. Give the man a little time to straighten out the mess that he was handed. If you really thought he would turn this team around in one year, well what were you smoking?

I think next season we improve, and maybe make the playoffs...for sure if the NFC East is as sorry as it is this year. I'm not gonna jump ship.

Daseal · 12-14-2004, 08:14 PM

To me, it's the lack of progress I'm seeing that's hurting. Playcalling and clock management can be sporadic at best. 8 Weeks with Brunell at the helm when everyone in the world wanted him out after four pathetic weeks. The abandonment of running game way too early. I hope he can change things up next year, and if not then the year after. Ideally I would like to see an offensive coordinator if things aren't better by the end of year three. If things stay about the same next year, maybe then.

Gibbs is the best leader we've had in DC for sometime. These guys would jump off a bridge for him, and I respect him for that because that's absolutely amazing.

VTSkins897 · 12-14-2004, 08:42 PM

some ppl have been saying both and that's what i'll say. a gibbs team should not have penalties, after x amount of games with so many yds of penalties a lot of it goes back to the coach. i mean we've said it over and over that these were the things that would vanish under gibbs' reign. maybe there just isn't an instant fix to it i guess.

i think that the execution and the play-calling have to come together. if we're throwing hitches all the time then the execution may seem crappy even though they wanted to run the 2 yd. pass play. at the same time, i'd expect even when trying to throw it downfield, if you see TE (not even a jumper like gardner) double-covered, then u need to use some sense and maybe check down. execution.

these things though will go away guys trust me. no one does well right off the bat. andy reid, mcnabb, vermiel, etc, etc. these guys all took time to get into the scheme of things. it will be ok!

skins

bedlamVR · 12-15-2004, 03:04 AM

You know the bucs won a superbowl from the short pass/strong D and play action so it does work if your players can execute.

An interesteing stat is that we are the 4th most penailised team in the NFL and we are well on course to have more than 1000 penalty yards for a forth time in recent seasons and that NO Gibbs team has had more than 1000 penalty yards.

Next year will tell I am not sure we will have changes as Gibbs gets more of his uys in andsome of the worst offenders are removed but I do not think we will see wholesale changes.

Daseal · 12-15-2004, 08:33 AM

The penelties may have a little something to do with the system? Don't you think it's slightly to blame? Those penelties are a bit deceiving with 47 coming from one bullshit play. I feel a lot of the penelties were stupid. Sellars made special teams plays. We were in Eagles territory twice with 4th and short. Both of which we punted on, both of which the Eagles were back to that spot within 3 plays. We have a strong defense. If you're on their 35/40, go for it!

Gibbs called that play, and Gibbs called a lot of other plays where the play was simply doomed. A QB threw three bad balls. Wow. I'll take that any day. You guys act like we should do everything perfectly and the defense we go against shouldn't play well. Hate to tell you, but they have to not execute in order for it to work, that hinges on playcalling to catch them going the wrong way.

MTK · 12-15-2004, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daseal

Hate to tell you, but they have to not execute in order for it to work, that hinges on playcalling to catch them going the wrong way.

How does a play work if you don't execute it?

I kinda see what you're saying, but doesn't every play ultimately come down to it being executed properly to be successful? What's the use of a great call if the QB throws an incompletion or fumbles the snap? Or what if there's a false start that pushes the team in to 3rd and long and they have to go with another play?

When Lombardi coached the Packers they had a very limited playbook, but the plays they ran they ran to perfection. Gibbs takes a page out of Lombardi in that sense. Gibbs' playbook isn't overly complicated, but it depends on execution. So often back in the 80's you'd hear people say they knew exactly what the Redskins were running, but they just couldn't stop it.

Daseal · 12-15-2004, 06:17 PM

I meant the defense has to not-execute properly. Many of the plays are passive and not built for any sort of real gain! I would love to see us play like we did against the Giants. Absolutely great playcalling. We had their defensive coordinator guessing what we were doing. He didn't know if we were running and passing. I like to see that! QBs can't go 100% Peyton Manning is in the 60s for completion percentage, and that's pretty damn good. You plan on telling the Colts that they aren't converting because 30 some % of the throws become nothing? I don't think so. Mistakes happen in football, we had very few dropped balls last game, and we did have penelties. That's not really "execution" in my book. I see execution having to do with plays, Mike Sellers made idiot plays. I remember hearing earlier that he's a real Gibbs guy. Apparently he's on the first Gibbs pink ticket outta town come the end of the season!

Lombardi also coached when the game was different. Slower. I bet Lombardi's system would get absolutely deystroyed by the defenses you see today.

cpayne5 · 12-15-2004, 06:26 PM

It seems like Gibbs' playcalling revolves around the QB not taking too many chances downfield (directly propotional to TOs and QB confidence), handing off to the RB to maximize TOP, and using shorter passes to put the ball in the playmakers' hands (Coles, Gardner, Cooley, Portis, etc) in the open field. Not a bad strategy (very conservative and safe), but we're being killed by penalties, bad calls, poor execution, and up until a few weeks ago, dropped passes. The approach with Ramsey may turn out to be an excellent decision. He may not post huge numbers this year, but this year may be the type of learning experience and confidence builder that he needs at this point in his career so that he may fluorish (and yes, allowed to take longer shots down the field) later on down the road in the current offense.

Daseal · 12-15-2004, 06:56 PM

When we've gone down field I've seen plenty of confidence in Ramsey. We need to tell him, you know what, you'll make mistakes, but that's why we have that defense right there to back you up. Go out there, play ball, and learn. Guide him, don't shelter him. It's become painfully obvious that our current strategy isn't working very well against decent teams.

I think Dallas and MN will be good tests to see what Ramsey, and the system can do against balanced teams. I know MN doesn't have a great defense, but they can rush the passer and their offense can keep ours off the field which means we must capitilize.

View Poll Results: What's the Bigger Problem?
Playcalling	19	30.16%
Execution	44	69.84%
Voters: 63. You may not vote on this poll

12-14-2004, 07:01 PM	#22
biggirl Camp Scrub Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Arlington, VA Age: 62 Posts: 79	Play calling or execution? I am a huge Redskin fan, and I'm a Gibbs fan. My thought is although the end of the season record may look similar to the last couple of years, this team is so much better than it has been. The players have more heart than we've seen in a while. Spurrier had no control over the players...he didn't have their respect, and it showed. I think Gibbs showed what was what when he sat Sean Taylor after the DUI. I know I respected him for that. I know I have said it before, but I'll say it again...Joe Gibbs is just a man. There will be a learning curve. Give the man a little time to straighten out the mess that he was handed. If you really thought he would turn this team around in one year, well what were you smoking? I think next season we improve, and maybe make the playoffs...for sure if the NFC East is as sorry as it is this year. I'm not gonna jump ship.

12-15-2004, 06:26 PM	#29
cpayne5 Playmaker Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,807	It seems like Gibbs' playcalling revolves around the QB not taking too many chances downfield (directly propotional to TOs and QB confidence), handing off to the RB to maximize TOP, and using shorter passes to put the ball in the playmakers' hands (Coles, Gardner, Cooley, Portis, etc) in the open field. Not a bad strategy (very conservative and safe), but we're being killed by penalties, bad calls, poor execution, and up until a few weeks ago, dropped passes. The approach with Ramsey may turn out to be an excellent decision. He may not post huge numbers this year, but this year may be the type of learning experience and confidence builder that he needs at this point in his career so that he may fluorish (and yes, allowed to take longer shots down the field) later on down the road in the current offense. __________________ "It's not about what you've done, but what's been done for you."

12-13-2004, 05:47 PM	#16
memphisskin Impact Rookie Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Nashville, TN Age: 53 Posts: 960	I'm going to have to go with playcalling, because you cannot call what happens when our defense is on the sidelines execution. Can I vote both? One deep throw, which turned out to be one too many. How many runs for Portis in the 2nd half and WTF was that toss on 3rd and short? The only thing worse than the playcalling was the execution. And I think I have to apologize to Webster's dictionary for even referring to that showing as execution. I'm with Matty, no more references to Spurrier. I fully expect Gibbs to get these guys to execute. Please someone tell me that Mike Sellers is on the cut list today.

12-14-2004, 02:45 PM	#18
BossHog Registered User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Norfolk, Va Posts: 665	Well 47 yards of the penalties came on one play by Springs, the interference play, McNabb to Owens. The new rules have the already high flying offenses of last year well, flying higher. Do you think Peyton Manning could have broken Marino's record prior to this one's? And to think Harrison if having an 'off year'!?

12-14-2004, 08:14 PM	#23
Daseal Puppy Kicker Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Arlington, Virginia Age: 41 Posts: 8,341	To me, it's the lack of progress I'm seeing that's hurting. Playcalling and clock management can be sporadic at best. 8 Weeks with Brunell at the helm when everyone in the world wanted him out after four pathetic weeks. The abandonment of running game way too early. I hope he can change things up next year, and if not then the year after. Ideally I would like to see an offensive coordinator if things aren't better by the end of year three. If things stay about the same next year, maybe then. Gibbs is the best leader we've had in DC for sometime. These guys would jump off a bridge for him, and I respect him for that because that's absolutely amazing.

12-14-2004, 08:42 PM	#24
VTSkins897 Impact Rookie Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Richmond, VA Age: 41 Posts: 890	some ppl have been saying both and that's what i'll say. a gibbs team should not have penalties, after x amount of games with so many yds of penalties a lot of it goes back to the coach. i mean we've said it over and over that these were the things that would vanish under gibbs' reign. maybe there just isn't an instant fix to it i guess. i think that the execution and the play-calling have to come together. if we're throwing hitches all the time then the execution may seem crappy even though they wanted to run the 2 yd. pass play. at the same time, i'd expect even when trying to throw it downfield, if you see TE (not even a jumper like gardner) double-covered, then u need to use some sense and maybe check down. execution. these things though will go away guys trust me. no one does well right off the bat. andy reid, mcnabb, vermiel, etc, etc. these guys all took time to get into the scheme of things. it will be ok! skins

12-15-2004, 03:04 AM	#25
bedlamVR Special Teams Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 389	You know the bucs won a superbowl from the short pass/strong D and play action so it does work if your players can execute. An interesteing stat is that we are the 4th most penailised team in the NFL and we are well on course to have more than 1000 penalty yards for a forth time in recent seasons and that NO Gibbs team has had more than 1000 penalty yards. Next year will tell I am not sure we will have changes as Gibbs gets more of his uys in andsome of the worst offenders are removed but I do not think we will see wholesale changes.

12-15-2004, 08:33 AM	#26
Daseal Puppy Kicker Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Arlington, Virginia Age: 41 Posts: 8,341	The penelties may have a little something to do with the system? Don't you think it's slightly to blame? Those penelties are a bit deceiving with 47 coming from one bullshit play. I feel a lot of the penelties were stupid. Sellars made special teams plays. We were in Eagles territory twice with 4th and short. Both of which we punted on, both of which the Eagles were back to that spot within 3 plays. We have a strong defense. If you're on their 35/40, go for it! Gibbs called that play, and Gibbs called a lot of other plays where the play was simply doomed. A QB threw three bad balls. Wow. I'll take that any day. You guys act like we should do everything perfectly and the defense we go against shouldn't play well. Hate to tell you, but they have to not execute in order for it to work, that hinges on playcalling to catch them going the wrong way.

12-15-2004, 06:17 PM	#28
Daseal Puppy Kicker Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Arlington, Virginia Age: 41 Posts: 8,341	I meant the defense has to not-execute properly. Many of the plays are passive and not built for any sort of real gain! I would love to see us play like we did against the Giants. Absolutely great playcalling. We had their defensive coordinator guessing what we were doing. He didn't know if we were running and passing. I like to see that! QBs can't go 100% Peyton Manning is in the 60s for completion percentage, and that's pretty damn good. You plan on telling the Colts that they aren't converting because 30 some % of the throws become nothing? I don't think so. Mistakes happen in football, we had very few dropped balls last game, and we did have penelties. That's not really "execution" in my book. I see execution having to do with plays, Mike Sellers made idiot plays. I remember hearing earlier that he's a real Gibbs guy. Apparently he's on the first Gibbs pink ticket outta town come the end of the season! Lombardi also coached when the game was different. Slower. I bet Lombardi's system would get absolutely deystroyed by the defenses you see today.

12-15-2004, 06:56 PM	#30
Daseal Puppy Kicker Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Arlington, Virginia Age: 41 Posts: 8,341	When we've gone down field I've seen plenty of confidence in Ramsey. We need to tell him, you know what, you'll make mistakes, but that's why we have that defense right there to back you up. Go out there, play ball, and learn. Guide him, don't shelter him. It's become painfully obvious that our current strategy isn't working very well against decent teams. I think Dallas and MN will be good tests to see what Ramsey, and the system can do against balanced teams. I know MN doesn't have a great defense, but they can rush the passer and their offense can keep ours off the field which means we must capitilize.

What's the Bigger Problem?

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