[JoeRedskin]

Here's the thing, I think there's truth to both points.

TG - rational actors aside, you are "westerpormorphizing" the Iranian state. On the international scale, sure, there is the basic survival instinct, but, at the cultural level, this is a society that acts, rationalizes, and, has core values very different from our own. I am not saying all Muslims hate the US or want to blow us up BUT the current Iranian state is not a democracy in the western sense but rather a theocratic democracy - you are free to vote for whichever of the imams' candidates you like best. It is founded on principles that are fundamentally opposed to true individual liberty. Ultimately, Iran is an anti-democratic state that has very different method of determining its international priorities than countries with western style democracies. Further, when a state believes divine inspiration plays a direct role in its policy making decisions, as Iran does, it is simple blindness or naiveté' to think they will be bound by western liberal democratic concepts of what a rational actor would do on the international stage. At its core, a theocracy simply has a different definition of "rational" than that of true democracies.

Secondly, and in addition to the inherent irrationality of theocratic states, there is a real and tangible hatred of America in Iran. Sure, individual citizens may have no desire to strap on a bomb and blow up Americans, but, on a cultural state level, America has never ceased to be "The Great Satan" to Iran and Iranians. I have spoken to several individuals who have been there, and they are consistent in their descriptions of the deep and abiding, cultural dislike for and distrust of America by Iranians as a whole (yes, I know it is anecdotal).

Any dealings with the Iranian state must recognize these two basic truths: (1) theocracies are not bound by traditional western concepts of "rational actors"; and (2) the cultural and state level hatred existing in Iran for America and our culture is a real and guiding force in their international actions. Failure to recognize these truths and pretending Iran is just another rational state actor on the international stage is naïve or obtuse.

But ... as TG said, if not engagement, then what? Hog1 - I do not trust that they will abide by any treaty provisions, but, unless we are willing to nuke or invade (which I, personally, am not), our only option is to talk and keep a foot in the door. The alternative is to let them stockpile and proliferate absolutely unchecked.

I am sure they are playing us with this treaty, we should do our best to return the favor.