Where are the apologies?
 

I just got home from a trip - - had to watch the game in a hotel bar last night. I fully expected to see at least three or four threads in here full of apologies from people who had accused Joe Gibbs of being a lying weasel and a backstabbing ne'er-do-well, but I can't seem to find them. OK, you may still not like the way he handled the situation, but he got it right.

Maybe it's my browser that can't find the threads here that would try to explain that Patrick Ramsey would not have made that 25 yard scramble in the 4th quarter because had he started then, he'd still be running to make it to the full 25 yards.

So, let me say it explicitly:


Joe Gibbs made a QB decision and it was the CORRECT one.

Joe Gibbs is not infallible but he appears to know just a tad more about QBs than the "Patrick Ramsey Fan Cub" officers.


Now let me make a prediction that will make me no friends among the Patrick Ramsey Fan Club officers and members:


Unless Brunell is incapable of playing, Patrick Ramsey will not take another meaningful snap all of this year.

Next year, Ramsey's status with the team will be determined exclusively by two things:


1. The economics of his contract.

2. The development of Jason Campbell. If Campbell is ready to be the #2 QB next year, Ramsey's contract is a bit expensive for a #3 QB


Absent injury to Mark Brunell, Patrick Ramsey's next start in a meaningful regular season NFL game will be in a different uniform.

Re: Where are the apologies?
 

Way to come out blasting SCurm ... :headbange

Re: Where are the apologies?
 

I'm sorry SC -- I can't excuse 3 1/4 of just horrible QBing with 3/4 of one. I feel Ramsey would have done better throughout the game and given us a win that wouldn't have stopped my heart three times! Brunell still doesnt have me sold till he can perform anywhere near the level of the 4th quarter more than once. We have 3 unproven QBs as far as Im concerned.

Re: Where are the apologies?
 

Yep SC, I hear ya bro'! Maybe some did a little sneaky sneaky onto the ol' bandwagon while we weren't looking, LOL!!!

Re: Where are the apologies?
 

[QUOTE=sportscurmudgeon]Joe Gibbs made a QB decision and it was the CORRECT one..[/QUOTE]

In terms of last night's game? Probably.

In terms of the season? I'm not sold quite yet.

For 56 minutes of that game, I was pretty sure Gibbs had made the wrong decision, and I'm almost certain even the most ardent Brunell supporters began to have their doubts, as well-- whether they'll admit it or not.

I'm not entirely sure that we've seen the last of Ramsey in a Skins uniform, either. If Brunell reverts to 2004 form and the Skins start losing, OR if Brunell goes down for any period of time, do you [I]really[/I] believe that Gibbs will put the fate of this team in the hands of a rookie, when he has an experienced, former starter on the bench?

NO. Explicit enough for you?

Perhaps we should let this season unfold just a bit further before we start thumping our chests and belittling those with the "audacity" to question a man whose offense-- outside of two single plays in about 2 minutes of one game-- has looked just south of ineffective.





**This in no way means that I'm rooting for Brunell to fail. I want the Redskins to win, and if Brunell is the starter, then he damn well better perform like one. Same goes equally for Ramsey or Campbell. That also means Gibbs has to call more shots like he did in the last 4 minutes of Monday's win.

As that game will tell you-- as if it isn't obvious-- it takes good playcalling AND good execution to win a football game. The Skins are lucky it only took about four minutes worth to beat the Cowboys.

Re: Where are the apologies?
 

apologies? are you kidding? the offense was EXACTLY what i expected, to the letter. lifeless and inadequate. i was planning on holding back for longer, for the sake of an awesome win, but people insist.

those passes were an act of complete desperation that were NOT in Joe Gibbs' gameplan. there i said it, try and tell me different.

if not for Santana's until then completely overlooked and untapped talent, we would be right back in 2004. thank god the team didn't get discouraged.

Ramsey had been throwing to Santana and Cooley all off-season, and yes at the risk of more INTs, we would have seen more than ZERO points halfway into the fourth quarter.

Re: Where are the apologies?
 

What I don't understand about the Ramsey apologists is this: How can they say this decision was made quickly? Ramsey has never shown anything. He is entering his 4th year, and he has shown no signs of improvement. He wasn't good for Gibbs last year. He stunk up the joint in preseason, and he was outplayed by Brunell then. Ramsey did nothing to earn the job.

I'm not saying that Brunell is 'the answer' at this point. But, Patrick has done nothing to show that he deserves to be a starting QB in this league.

Re: Where are the apologies?
 

You know, as bad as the offense played through most of the game, the fact is, our team kept fighting and won. Sure, Brunell isn't Joe Montana, neither is Patrick Ramsey. But, it's games like this that can turn a team and a season around. No matter how much people will continue to complain, the fact is, we're 2-0 right now, and we accomplished something we haven't been able to accomplish in a long time - we beat the Dallas Cowboys in Dallas in front of a nationally televised audience. If anybody thinks that means zero to this team and the team's confidence, you're sadly delusional.

Re: Where are the apologies?
 

Whoa...did we not win the game last night! Maybe I am feeling differently about the whole QB controversy thing as an admited "Ramsey Apologist." Because I watched it all with my two eyes last night and we won I am not going to engage in anymore Burgundy and Gold bashing, the guys who wear that uniform are OUR guys.

Brunell brought the team back from what seemed an insurmountable lead at DALLAS! So let us enjoy it and stop with Brunell/Ramsey/Campbell debate. Do I have to scream it, "WE BEAT DALLAS!" It is time to rally around whoever is wearing the Burgundy and Gold.

As for Ramsey, lets root for him, maybe he'll get his confidence back since the pressure is off, if he gets called in to play we all need to be rooting for him and hoping that he is ready. Maybe a coach will pull him aside and show him some film of Trent Dilfer moving around in the pocket and rolling out against Green Bay. Last I thought Dilfer would never be confused for a mobile QB in the Steve Young mold, but he looked pretty good in the Packer game. So who is to say that Ramsey could not learn some new things, especially if he were to be coached, granted he is not the focus now, but who knows?

Re: Where are the apologies?
 

[QUOTE=DirtBagZ]Whoa...did we not win the game last night! Maybe I am feeling differently about the whole QB controversy thing as an admited "Ramsey Apologist." Because I watched it all with my two eyes last night and we won I am not going to engage in anymore Burgundy and Gold bashing, the guys who wear that uniform are OUR guys. [/QUOTE]

yeah man, we did win, and i want to enjoy this historic win for at least a week before we get nasty amongst each other again. it's too soon for any I Told You So's but if someone wants to insist that the problems that were so apparent in 2004 weren't just as apparent last night, then with reluctance i'll throw out I Told You So's.

Re: Where are the apologies?
 

i did apologize once in the game thread, but i'm definitely not sold on brunell yet.

4 minutes of good playing is not even close to enough

Re: Where are the apologies?
 

[QUOTE=sportscurmudgeon]I just got home from a trip - - had to watch the game in a hotel bar last night. I fully expected to see at least three or four threads in here full of apologies from people who had accused Joe Gibbs of being a lying weasel and a backstabbing ne'er-do-well, but I can't seem to find them. OK, you may still not like the way he handled the situation, but he got it right.

Maybe it's my browser that can't find the threads here that would try to explain that Patrick Ramsey would not have made that 25 yard scramble in the 4th quarter because had he started then, he'd still be running to make it to the full 25 yards.

So, let me say it explicitly:

Joe Gibbs made a QB decision and it was the CORRECT one.

Joe Gibbs is not infallible but he appears to know just a tad more about QBs than the "Patrick Ramsey Fan Cub" officers.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for yet another gracious post. :biggthump Did I ever claim to know more than Gibbs about football or QBs in general? No. Will I give him a blank check to do whatever he thinks is right and praise the moves regardless of what I think? No.

Last night, after 56 minutes of dreadful play, I said that I would give both Brunell and Gibbs some credit. I still do not agree with the switch, but I am willing to admit that it is possible that I could be wrong. I also am willing to give them a pass because I wanted to beat the Cowboys more than anything. And, in the end, we won the game. It wasn't a pretty win. Our offense looked dreadful for most of the game, but we won and that is all that matters.

Re: Where are the apologies?
 

[QUOTE=joecrisp]
**This in no way means that I'm rooting for Brunell to fail. I want the Redskins to win, and if Brunell is the starter, then he damn well better perform like one. Same goes equally for Ramsey or Campbell. That also means Gibbs has to call more shots like he did in the last 4 minutes of Monday's win.

As that game will tell you-- as if it isn't obvious-- it takes good playcalling AND good execution to win a football game. The Skins are lucky it only took about four minutes worth to beat the Cowboys.[/QUOTE]

Isn't it interesting how those of us who believe that Ramsey is our team's best bet need to constantly remind people that we are Redskins fans? People act as though we are Ramsey fans simply because we love who Ramsey is and not what he can do for our team.

Re: Where are the apologies?
 

I really am not looking for an apology. I'm looking for a couple of daredevils to just jump off the Ramsey bandwagon and hop on the winning train because the next stop is Landover, MD and Seahawks are standing in the way. I don't care who does them in, as long as we win.

Re: Where are the apologies?
 

[QUOTE=Art_Monk_HOF]What I don't understand about the Ramsey apologists is this: How can they say this decision was made quickly? Ramsey has never shown anything. He is entering his 4th year, and he has shown no signs of improvement. He wasn't good for Gibbs last year. He stunk up the joint in preseason, and he was outplayed by Brunell then. Ramsey did nothing to earn the job.

I'm not saying that Brunell is 'the answer' at this point. But, Patrick has done nothing to show that he deserves to be a starting QB in this league.[/QUOTE]

Seems to me that Gibbs felt Ramsey was good enough last year to earn the starting job. He did, after all, name him the starter after seeing him improve over the course of the last few games (some of which were actually victories, believe it or not) last season.

Hmmm... are you questioning Gibbs's judgement? Seems awfully "un-Redskins Fan-like" of you. Maybe you should apologize to all of us for questioning what Gibbs ever saw in Ramsey to make him bench Mark Brunell and-- gasp!-- name Ramsey the 2005 starter. [/sarcasm]

Sorry. That statement was made in light of how ridiculous this "Holy Crusade of the Brunell Backers" has become.

Simply because people disagree with Gibbs's decision to start Brunell doesn't mean they're not Redskins fans. It doesn't mean they're Gibbs-haters or even Brunell-haters. It doesn't make them "Ramsey apologists," either. It simply means they have a different perspective on what's best for this team-- this team that they love and live and die for every bit as much as anyone else on this board.

There are those of us who prefer Brunell's cautious, conservative approach to "game management", and there are those of us who prefer Ramsey's youthful (if unrefined and sometimes ill-advised) aggressiveness. Both players-- because of their respective and numerous flaws-- have lost more games than they've won for this team, and [I]neither[/I] have proven they're 'the answer'.

With the disparity in age of the two quarterbacks in this debate, perhaps the better question is, if Gibbs's decision wasn't made quickly, would it have been made at all?

Perhaps we'll never know.

Re: Where are the apologies?
 

[QUOTE=Daseal]I'm sorry SC -- I can't excuse 3 1/4 of just horrible QBing with 3/4 of one. I feel Ramsey would have done better throughout the game and given us a win that wouldn't have stopped my heart three times! Brunell still doesnt have me sold till he can perform anywhere near the level of the 4th quarter more than once. We have 3 unproven QBs as far as Im concerned.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. I'll defintely give Gibbs more props as a coach though, as far as how hard the guys play for him. If that were any other coach we've had in Washingotn, we would have packed it in, for sure. I still think our playcalling was a little suspect, but it is what it is. I'm not annoynting Brunell as anything other than another unproven guy at this point.

Re: Where are the apologies?
 

We won the game. We Beat the Cowboys in Dallas for the first time in 10 years and on the night they inducted they're big 3 into their hall of fame. Can we all just remember that and enjoy it?

I'm tired of all the negativity.

Re: Where are the apologies?
 

[QUOTE=illdefined]apologies? are you kidding? the offense was EXACTLY what i expected, to the letter. lifeless and inadequate. I was planning on holding back for longer, for the sake of an awesome win, but people insist.

those passes were an act of complete desperation that were NOT in Joe Gibbs' gameplan. there i said it, try and tell me different.

if not for Santana's until then completely overlooked and untapped talent, we would be right back in 2004. thank god the team didn't get discouraged.

Ramsey had been throwing to Santana and Cooley all off-season, and yes at the risk of more INTs, we would have seen more than ZERO points halfway into the fourth quarter.[/QUOTE]


Way to nail ill!!!!!!!!!!!

This garbage that all of sudden Brunell is a big time QB again is just that garbage, in almost 2 games he's had exactly 4 minutes of good QB play, in fact you can probably encorperate last season and find that after last years
Dallas game he's had exactly 4 minutes of good QB play period.


Why did he have to bail himself out with 2 hail mary passes? I will tell you why he stunk for 56 minutes of the game, and if it weren't for Dallas's absolute disbelief in Brunells ability to throw a deep ball we would have been shut out, Brunell was exactly 4 minutes from being shut out and another press confrence of Gibbs telling us how he fought his gut's out too a tune of zero points, I to refrained from the reality of the situation to allow the enjoyment of a victory, but, IF YOU INSIST.

I seriously doubt we are being shut out if Ramsey is starting, I also don't like the super bowl celebration after words IT WAS THE SECOND GAME OF THE YEAR, against a team we are more talented than, have we sunk so low that we now have Gibbs saying that this game was the biggest of his life? PALEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE!

Re: Where are the apologies?
 

[QUOTE=Joe Knows...]We won the game. We Beat the Cowboys in Dallas for the first time in 10 years and on the night they inducted they're big 3 into their hall of fame. Can we all just remember that and enjoy it?

I'm tired of all the negativity.[/QUOTE]

[b]AGREED[/b]. the Skins get a well deserved bye after a truly historic win *in spite* of their limitations. let's at least get a week of peace savoring in that before we start poking at what those (quite obvious) limitations are. we have next week for that.

Re: Where are the apologies?
 

[QUOTE=illdefined][b]AGREED[/b]. the Skins get a well deserved bye after a truly historic win *in spite* of their limitations. let's at least get a week of peace savoring in that before we start poking at what those (quite obvious) limitations are. we have next week for that.[/QUOTE]



Agreed! :food-smil

Re: Where are the apologies?
 

[QUOTE=Daseal]I'm sorry SC -- I can't excuse 3 1/4 of just horrible QBing with 3/4 of one. I feel Ramsey would have done better throughout the game and given us a win that wouldn't have stopped my heart three times! Brunell still doesnt have me sold till he can perform anywhere near the level of the 4th quarter more than once. We have 3 unproven QBs as far as Im concerned.[/QUOTE]

There is no evidence to suggest Ramsey would have moved the team last night. personally, I think he would have crumbled under the Cowboys blitz. Who knows how Brunell will play as the season progresses, but no matter how bad it seems Brunell is playing he never panics or loses confidence. That attitude helped him hang in there and make the plays at the end. I don't see anyway Ramsey would have made those throws at the end to win that game.

The cowboys were getting to the QB last night and Ramsey holds the ball to long as we know...that would have been a combination for disaster IMO.

Re: Where are the apologies?
 

I am a fan of the washington redskins. Part of being a fan is that I don't always have to agree with every other fan of the team. If everyone came to this message board voicing the same opinions, we would have 500 threads of nothing but "i agree"'s. I am proud of my team & the way they played to beat the cowboys, that said, I still can't completely forget my reservations about Brunell. If he continues to play as he played in the last 3 minutes of the game, then maybe I will be, but even if it goes so far as for God himself to descend from the heavens & annoint the left arm of Mark Brunell, I absolutely will not come to this message board & apologize for my opinion...nor would I expect one from anyone else were our roles reversed. Enough splitting of the fans. Let's get past this & focus on the task at hand, the Seattle Seahawks @ Fedex. Hail.

Re: Where are the apologies?
 

What is quite obvious is that winning is not the ultimate goal for many of you who call yourselves fans of the Redskins. What matters to you is that your point of view is right and correct. When it is not correct, a diatribe of excuses and comments about what Brunell is or isn't becomes your main argument. I don't care if it was 1 second left on the clock to decide the outcome, so as long as we won. Some of you are so arrogant and negative with your views of Gibbs and Brunell, that you should consider reading some of the threads by fans of opposing teams and see if you don't sound like them in your attacks against the QB that you feel is washed up.

Re: Where are the apologies?
 

[QUOTE=illdefined]apologies? are you kidding? the offense was EXACTLY what i expected, to the letter. lifeless and inadequate. i was planning on holding back for longer, for the sake of an awesome win, but people insist.

those passes were an act of complete desperation that were NOT in Joe Gibbs' gameplan. there i said it, try and tell me different.

if not for Santana's until then completely overlooked and untapped talent, we would be right back in 2004. thank god the team didn't get discouraged.

Ramsey had been throwing to Santana and Cooley all off-season, and yes at the risk of more INTs, we would have seen more than ZERO points halfway into the fourth quarter.[/QUOTE]
How do you know?

Re: Where are the apologies?
 

First of all We all here are redskins fans, all of us doesn't matter what our opinions are because all of our opinions are in hopes that the team never ever loses a game and is just silly to question someone's liking of this team

I am still not sold on brunell but i think if ramsey had played all of the two games we would be 0-2 right now. I don't think ramsey could have done any better than Brunell at Dallas and we would have thrown atleast 2 INTs with ramsey. I just think that to win more games we need brunell in there, i don't think brunell is a good QB, just that he would win more than ramsey in our style of offense- the no mistake kind-

Re: Where are the apologies?
 

[QUOTE=celts32]There is no evidence to suggest Ramsey would have moved the team last night. personally, I think he would have crumbled under the Cowboys blitz. Who knows how Brunell will play as the season progresses, but no matter how bad it seems Brunell is playing he never panics or loses confidence. That attitude helped him hang in there and make the plays at the end. I don't see anyway Ramsey would have made those throws at the end to win that game.

The cowboys were getting to the QB last night and Ramsey holds the ball to long as we know...that would have been a combination for disaster IMO.[/QUOTE]

last season was clear and relevant evidence on how both Brunell and Ramsey play. much more so than any practice or preseason game, i think last night proved that. the only difference between this season and last seeason is a better line and Moss + Patten. you're right we DON'T really know how Ramsey would play with them. we only know he played better than Brunell with a WORSE offense.

Re: Where are the apologies?
 

I understand that Ramsey played just 19 minutes of the regular season this year. However, he did play and he played during the preseason. From the last snap he took in the Vikings game last year until the last snap he took in the Bears game this year, did he get any better. Did he improve on things like not telegraphing his passes and not forcing plays that weren't there?

Personally, I didn't see any improvement and that, I think, is the problem most of us have with Ramsey. I want to see him do well, he is a Redskin after all, but I just don't see any progress in him. And I don't know what the answer is, throw him to the wolves, sit him on the bench, trade him. Anointing him the starter didn't work apparently.

On another note, how about that QB Class of 2002! Three QBs in the first round-Carr, Harrington, and Ramsey and all are seriously struggling.

Re: Where are the apologies?
 

[QUOTE=dblanch66]How do you know?[/QUOTE]

How do you know he wouldn't? if you say practice or preseason tell me if Brunell played like he did in preseason last night. *regular season* will always be the real indicator.

Re: Where are the apologies?
 

[QUOTE=SUNRA]What is quite obvious is that winning is not the ultimate goal for many of you who call yourselves fans of the Redskins. What matters to you is that your point of view is right and correct. When it is not correct, a diatribe of excuses and comments about what Brunell is or isn't becomes your main argument. I don't care if it was 1 second left on the clock to decide the outcome, so as long as we won. Some of you are so arrogant and negative with your views of Gibbs and Brunell, that you should consider reading some of the threads by fans of opposing teams and see if you don't sound like them in your attacks against the QB that you feel is washed up.[/QUOTE]

I was about to write a post saying let's put the whole Ramsey-Brunell QB debate behind us, be happy about the win, and look forward to next week. Now this. I really do not intend to sound aggressive and I do not want to pick or engage in a pissing contest. I know that your post was not directed at anyone in particular, but do not ever question my love of the Redskins.

If you would like to start an alternate fan-site that is based on the philosophy, "love it, don't question it, or leave it" that's fine. I invite you to do so. Just don't question fan loyalty here because a great many people don't share the same views you (or even Gibbs) do.

Re: Where are the apologies?
 

Can we please stop rehashing the Brunell-Ramsey debate and enjoy the win for one day???!!!! Jesus, we're acting like we lost. :banghead:

Re: Where are the apologies?
 

[QUOTE=SUNRA]What is quite obvious is that winning is not the ultimate goal for many of you who call yourselves fans of the Redskins. What matters to you is that your point of view is right and correct. When it is not correct, a diatribe of excuses and comments about what Brunell is or isn't becomes your main argument. I don't care if it was 1 second left on the clock to decide the outcome, so as long as we won. Some of you are so arrogant and negative with your views of Gibbs and Brunell, that you should consider reading some of the threads by fans of opposing teams and see if you don't sound like them in your attacks against the QB that you feel is washed up.[/QUOTE]

seriously on what basis are you pulling this bullsh*t from? just because YOU questioned Gibbs on getting rid of McCants means you want the team to lose?? or did that not happen SUNRA?

[b] knowing your team's flaws and loving them and rooting for them IN SPITE of them is being a TRUE FAN. being oblivious to the bad things, pretending there are no problems and only sounding off on the positives is being a CHEERLEADER[/b]

Re: Where are the apologies?
 

[QUOTE=Ramseyfan]Can we please stop rehashing the Brunell-Ramsey debate and enjoy the win for one day???!!!! Jesus, we're acting like we lost. :banghead:[/QUOTE]

We did the same thing last week. I don't think we know how to act after wins. They've come so few and far between.

Let's debate Stoutmire vs. Bowen now

Re: Where are the apologies?
 

I think we all (including myself) need to chill and just be happy for the best win in over ten years.

Re: Where are the apologies?
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]We did the same thing last week. I don't think we know how to act after wins. They've come so few and far between.

Let's debate Stoutmire vs. Bowen now[/QUOTE]

You're a stupid moron ignoramus.....there's no debate there, Ohalete should be in. :biggthump

Re: Where are the apologies?
 

[QUOTE=Ramseyfan]You're a stupid moron ignoramus.....there's no debate there, Ohalete should be in. :biggthump[/QUOTE]

Ramseyfan, you ignorant slut. Stoutmire is so good that Ade, THE ADE, gave up his number #23 to him. Ohalete couldn't even hold on to his #26.

Re: Where are the apologies?
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]Ramseyfan, you ignorant slut. Stoutmire is so good that Ade, THE ADE, gave up his number #23 to him. Ohalete couldn't even hold on to his #26.[/QUOTE]


ooooooohhhhhh, good one... :laughing-

Re: Where are the apologies?
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]Ramseyfan, you ignorant slut. Stoutmire is so good that Ade, THE ADE, gave up his number #23 to him. Ohalete couldn't even hold on to his #26.[/QUOTE]

You've just revealed what a backstabbing anti-fan you are. God [insert hyperbole] [insert expletive] [insert hyperbole] [insert hyperbole].

Re: Where are the apologies?
 

[QUOTE=Ramseyfan]I think we all (including myself) need to chill and just be happy for the best win in over ten years.[/QUOTE]

god knows i've tried, but we have to take grief from "fellow fans" who are "arrogant and negative" enough that "all that matters is their point of view is right and correct." or have you all not realized the name of this thread?

Re: Where are the apologies?
 

I think the word is "Petty." Or am I wrong?

Re: Where are the apologies?
 

I thought we lived in America ...cause we disagree with the QB we arent fans??? I personally thought brunell sucked for most of the game he looked old. But he did make 2 great passes congrats to him... But i think Patrick would have thrown the ball downfield more....It's just years of frustration...I wouldn't be so quick to say I told you so just yet... Patrick will be back in there cause brunell will go down at some point... But fans can be critical of the team and the coach.... hey this is america..... Hail