Let's talk about the front office situation
 

So Bruce Allen said he's going to be the one calling the shots personnel wise, leaning heavily on the input of Scott Campbell and Morocco Brown. He hinted that these guys weren't utilized nearly enough under Shanahan (surprise). He also didn't rule out adding someone to the front office structure.

Not sure I'm really liking the idea of this setup since personnel really isn't supposed to be Allen's strength. I'm not saying it can't work, but I'd just feel better if we had a true personnel guy making the decisions.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

Yeah, this seems like a step backwards to me. And it was a bit alarming to me that he said they would be changing the profile of the players they are looking for, and oh yeah a new coach might have some ideas too.

Also, it was strange that he lashed back at Shanahan, I'm not convinced that it was shanahan leaking the story, isnt it just as likely that the front office leaked these rumors as a good reason to opt out of his last year?

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

I look at it like this. The plan seemed to be that Brown was to be promoted to GM and Allen to President. So in that case, the set up for this year is pretty much to give those guys a chance to prove their worth of such a promotion. If they succeed they get promoted. If not, hopefully the front office looks elsewhere for help. I thinks it's more of a cost savings thing I think. I don't like it or hate it. I just don't know if it will work.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

I actually like this move. Allen basically said yesterday that had they listened to these guys, we'd have better players on the team. There is finally a structure where people in the trenches have a say. Allen might have the final say, someone has to have that. Allen isn't stupid, he knows his strengths and weaknesses. We have stability and I like that. Now go get a coach that isn't a stubborn, control freak, rat faced, whining to the media old hag.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

If you heard JLC this morning on the junkies- he delivered a pretty striking sermon regarding the Redskins current FO situation. He didn't have as much pessimism about finding a good coach, but implied that the Dan Snyder can only skin a cat two ways.

[LIST][*]Having the head coach (a la Shotty, Gibbs, and Shanny) have complete control, even when they aren't qualified to do so. Gibbs was not ever known to build a roster. Shanahan was fired from Denver for personnel gaffes as well.[/LIST]
[LIST][*]Or having the front office take control, with Snyder directly involved a la Jerry Jones.[/LIST]
The current look right now is the latter of the two, and JLC was extremely pessimistic about the chances of success for the Redskins, as am I. Bruce Allen's strengths have never been personnel (he's earned his experience through contracts/negotiations with agents), and now we're going to have to live through another round of Danny boy fiddling with the roster

I can't see why it's so damn hard to hire a true GM and step back and let the process play. He wants to be involved, and beyond that I think he LOOOOVESSS to be involved. It's his team and he can do whatever he wants.

I really hope this isn't the case, because we're in for another long stretch folks if it is.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=Mattyk;1052388]So Bruce Allen said he's going to be the one calling the shots personnel wise, leaning heavily on the input of Scott Campbell and Morocco Brown. He hinted that these guys weren't utilized nearly enough under Shanahan (surprise). He also didn't rule out adding someone to the front office structure.

Not sure I'm really liking the idea of this setup since personnel really isn't supposed to be Allen's strength. I'm not saying it can't work, but I'd just feel better if we had a true personnel guy making the decisions.[/quote]

My question is where does AJ Smith fit into this equation? If he was given the responsibility of personnel eval and decision maker I'd feel better. I agree someone else needs to be brought aboard if not AJ Smith in a larger capacity.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

wow ye of lil faith...

Bruce Allen is the President/ GM, the final decision will be his.

M. Brown and S. Campbell are the chief lieutenants Giving analysis on players.

Do not forget about AJ Smith. I am sure that Bruce will rely heavily on his opinion in personnel decisions. Bruce Allen is a former executive of the year. Can't take that away from him.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=RobH4413;1052395]If you heard JLC this morning on the junkies- he delivered a pretty striking sermon regarding the Redskins current FO situation. He didn't have as much pessimism about finding a good coach, but implied that the Dan Snyder can only skin a cat two ways.

[LIST][*]Having the head coach (a la Shotty, Gibbs, and Shanny) have complete control, even when they aren't qualified to do so. Gibbs was not ever known to build a roster. Shanahan was fired from Denver for personnel gaffes as well.[/LIST]
[LIST][*]Or having the front office take control, with Snyder directly involved a la Jerry Jones.[/LIST]
The current look right now is the latter of the two, and JLC was extremely pessimistic about the chances of success for the Redskins, as am I. Bruce Allen's strengths have never been personnel (he's earned his experience through contracts/negotiations with agents), and now we're going to have to live through another round of Danny boy fiddling with the roster

I can't see why it's so damn hard to hire a true GM and step back and let the process play. He wants to be involved, and beyond that I think he LOOOOVESSS to be involved. It's his team and he can do whatever he wants.

I really hope this isn't the case, because we're in for another long stretch folks if it is.[/quote]

Nothing Alan said even remotely implied that Snyder would have any input in the roster. Allen essentially said morocco is going to make all free agent evaluations, Campbell will do the same for the draft, and then Allen will make decisions on which guys to bring in based on the recommendations

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

I like the new set-up. Bruce seems to get it in terms of using his subordinates to do what they do best. Now, if they hire the right coach, I think it can work.

BTW, JLC is a dolt.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

Not comfortable with the people now, because as Allen said they are 3-13. Hard to have confidence in these guys getting it right with personnel.

That being said, Shanahan has always been a system first guy with virtually all positions, which is not the best way to draft IMO. His draft track record in denver was pretty similar to here, not alot of good ones. Mo Clarrett in the third was on him. Essentially they may have been just doing what they were told. He clearly values guys that will work hard for him, regardless of how little ability they have... LOL.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=WillH;1052389]Yeah, this seems like a step backwards to me. And it was a bit alarming to me that he said they would be changing the profile of the players they are looking for, and oh yeah a new coach might have some ideas too.

[B]Also, it was strange that he lashed back at Shanahan, I'm not convinced that it was shanahan leaking the story, isnt it just as likely that the front office leaked these rumors as a good reason to opt out of his last year?[/B][/quote]

I didn't get that vibe at all.

It's pretty obvious where the leaks were coming from.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=Mattyk;1052405]I didn't get that vibe at all.

It's pretty obvious where the leaks were coming from.[/quote]

Yeah, I suppose if that was the case MS would at least have implied it.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

It's funny that the two Jason's have the most to say about the situation, They seem to also have the most animosity towards the administration. No matter what Snyder would have done they would have spun it negative.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

I'm not crazy about the front office structure. I was hoping Bruce was going to announce that either we were promoting someone (Brown/Campbell) within in the organization to GM or that we were going to hire a true GM.

As a fan all I can do is hope that Bruce knows what he's talking about and will make the right decisions.

I just hope that Bruce Allen calling all the shots and having final say doesn't really mean Dan Snyder calling the shots and having final say with Bruce "oking" them.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=diehardskin2982;1052410]It's funny that the two Jason's have the most to say about the situation, They seem to also have the most animosity towards the administration. No matter what Snyder would have done they would have spun it negative.[/quote]

The front office has been a big liability ever since Snyder took over. I think it's a little naive to not at least look at our setup with a critical eye and wonder if we're doing the right thing. The one thing Snyder hasn't tried yet is having a true GM run the show. Personnel is not Allen's strength. If the plan is for Campbell to run the show draft wise and for Brown to run the show regarding pro personnel, and for Allen to more or less rubber stamp their decisions, that could possibly work.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

I don't think they're done with the front office revamp. I've heard multiple times they want to add Doug Williams, but I think it may be more likely they're looking to add someone currently on a playoff team so they're waiting

When Vinny was in charge it was also said then that he didn't listen to Campbell and Brown

They should have given Brown the title of General Manager because I suspect a few teams will come calling with that offer this offseason

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=Mattyk;1052412]The front office has been a big liability ever since Snyder took over. I think it's a little naive to not at least look at our setup with a critical eye and wonder if we're doing the right thing. The one thing Snyder hasn't tried yet is having a true GM run the show. Personnel is not Allen's strength. If the plan is for Campbell to run the show draft wise and for Brown to run the show regarding pro personnel, and for Allen to more or less rubber stamp their decisions, that could possibly work.[/quote]

Many Redskins fans are writing off Bruce Allen like he is not a legit executive. His strength is that he is a strong executive and will run the franchise like a business. He will rely on his team to help him make good decisions. Don't be surprised to see AJ Smith and Scott Campbell representing for us at the draft. I hope that we add someone for the 49ers front office staff.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=diehardskin2982;1052419]Many Redskins fans are writing off Bruce Allen like he is not a legit executive. His strength is that he is a strong executive and will run the franchise like a business. He will rely on his team to help him make good decisions. Don't be surprised to see AJ Smith and Scott Campbell representing for us at the draft. I hope that we add someone for the 49ers front office staff.[/quote]

I don't think anyone denies he's not a strong executive, but personnel isn't his thing.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=SmootSmack;1052413]I don't think they're done with the front office revamp. I've heard multiple times they want to add Doug Williams, but I think it may be more likely they're looking to add someone currently on a playoff team so they're waiting.

[B]Add Doug Williams? In what role?[/B]

When Vinny was in charge it was also said then that he didn't listen to Campbell and Brown.

[B]True.[/B]

They should have given Brown the title of General Manager because I suspect a few teams will come calling with that offer this offseason.

[B]That is a very good point. Perhaps they don't want to stand in his way if he is offered the opportunity to run a team.[/B]

[/quote]

nfm

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

Bruce doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would take a job he wasn't very suited for. Especially for this org which he seems to cherish. Leads me to think he wont be doing much personnel work directly but more leading on it.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=Mattyk;1052420]I don't think anyone denies he's not a strong executive, but personnel isn't his thing.[/quote]

It doesn't need to be if he utilizes his player personnel directors properly. A good manager makes sure that the people who work for him are smarter than he is at what they do.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=Mattyk;1052420]I don't think anyone denies he's not a strong executive, but personnel isn't his thing.[/quote]

Every executive has his strengths and weaknesses. Player evaluation is not Bruce's strong suit, that is why AJ is on staff to help him with that.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;1052424]It doesn't need to be if he utilizes his player personnel directors properly. A good manager makes sure that the people who work for him are smarter than he is at what they do.[/quote]

I totally agree and I'm pretty sure that's the plan. I already feel a million times better about the FO with Shanahan out of the way.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;1052399]Nothing Alan said even remotely implied that Snyder would have any input in the roster. Allen essentially said morocco is going to make all free agent evaluations, Campbell will do the same for the draft, and then Allen will make decisions on which guys to bring in based on the recommendations[/quote]

He also hasn't said that he won't have any input on the roster. Morocco will make the evaluations, but Snyder's track record has been to influence and often overtake qualified opinion (unless he's contractually obligated not too).

I'm not trying to say Snyder is the big bad wolf, and that everything he does is evil. I'm saying Snyder has a well known history of interjecting when not contractually restrained.

In the current set-up, he's not excluded from the process; and I think that's by design. I wish it wasn't.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

So ... Can Allen veto the new HC? If M. Brown says "I want this [UFA] guy" and Campbell says "no, no ... there's a rookie at that position who we can draft with our top pick and who will be better long term" and new HC says "ummm, guys, those are decent enough players but they don't fit what we are trying to do here. I really need X or Y [neither of who MB or SC think is particularly worth the cost]".

It sounds to me that either (1) BA is filling the traditional role of GM -> final say on player acquisitions ; or (2) We will have a multi-headed player acquisition morass with factions and the potential for lots of internal in-fighting.

If (1), then I am okay with it as long as BA is relying on MB and SC for the actual evaluations.

If (2), wash, rinse and repeat of our losing ways. Won't matter who they bring it.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=RobH4413;1052428]He also hasn't said that he won't have any input on the roster. Morocco will make the evaluations, but Snyder's track record has been to influence and often overtake qualified opinion (unless he's contractually obligated not too).

I'm not trying to say Snyder is the big bad wolf, and that everything he does is evil. I'm saying Snyder has a well known history of interjecting when not contractually restrained.

In the current set-up, he's not excluded from the process; and I think that's by design. I wish it wasn't.[/quote]

What are you saying? That Snyder told Vinny which players to draft? I highly doubt that.

You want him excluded from the process? Here's a news flash: [U]Snyder owns the team![/U] If I owned an NFL team, I'd make Snyder look as patient and hands off as a Buddhist monk in comparison to me.

Back to reality, Snyder's reputation as a control freak pales in comparison to those of Jerry Jones, the late Al Davis, and some other NFL owners.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1052434]So ... Can Allen veto the new HC? If M. Brown says "I want this [UFA] guy" and Campbell says "no, no ... there's a rookie at that position who we can draft with our top pick and who will be better long term" and new HC says "ummm, guys, those are decent enough players but they don't fit what we are trying to do here. I really need X or Y [neither of who MB or SC think is particularly worth the cost]".

It sounds to me that either (1) BA is filling the traditional role of GM -> final say on player acquisitions ; or (2) We will have a multi-headed player acquisition morass with factions and the potential for lots of internal in-fighting.

If (1), then I am okay with it as long as BA is relying on MB and SC for the actual evaluations.

If (2), wash, rinse and repeat of our losing ways. Won't matter who they bring it.[/quote]

Bruce said that he would make the decisions with input from Brown and Campbell.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=SmootSmack;1052413]I don't think they're done with the front office revamp. I've heard multiple times they want to add Doug Williams, but I think it may be more likely they're looking to add someone currently on a playoff team so they're waiting

When Vinny was in charge it was also said then that he didn't listen to Campbell and Brown

They should have given Brown the title of General Manager because I suspect a few teams will come calling with that offer this offseason[/quote]

Well I hope they are prepared to give Brown the GM title if need be. I like Bruce Allen a lot. I think he represents the team well around the league but if personnel decisions are not his strong suit then this whole front office is in the toilet without Brown. If they hire a coach and put everything in place and then Brown walks out the door they are screwed. It made way to much sense to just give Bruce the VP title and name Brown GM...

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;1052440]What are you saying? That Snyder told Vinny which players to draft? I highly doubt that.

You want him excluded from the process? Here's a news flash: [U]Snyder owns the team![/U] If I owned an NFL team, I'd make Snyder look as patient and hands off as a Buddhist monk in comparison to me.

[B]Back to reality, Snyder's reputation as a control freak pales in comparison to those of Jerry Jones, the late Al Davis, and some other NFL owners.[/B][/quote]
Pales in comparison is your opinion, one which I strongly disagree on. Snyder's reputation hasn't been conjured up by some propaganda machine. He's earned it.

Their are plenty of owners who don't meddle with their team's front office, and given Snyders track record- it's time for him to exclude himself from the football operations.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=RobH4413;1052452]Pales in comparison is your opinion, one which I strongly disagree on. Snyder's reputation hasn't been conjured up by some propaganda machine. He's earned it.

Their are plenty of owners who don't meddle with their team's front office, and given Snyders track record- it's [B]time for him to exclude himself from the football operations[/B].[/quote]

You mean like he has for the last four years when Shanahan had TOTAL control over football operations?

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1052453]You mean like he has for the last four years when Shanahan had TOTAL control over football operations?[/quote]

No, I mean what I wrote earlier in the thread


[quote=RobH4413]If you heard JLC this morning on the junkies- he delivered a pretty striking sermon regarding the Redskins current FO situation. He didn't have as much pessimism about finding a good coach, but implied that the Dan Snyder can only skin a cat two ways.

[LIST][*]Having the head coach (a la Shotty, Gibbs, and Shanny) have complete control, even when they aren't qualified to do so. Gibbs was not ever known to build a roster. Shanahan was fired from Denver for personnel gaffes as well.[/LIST]
[LIST][*]Or having the front office take control, with Snyder directly involved a la Jerry Jones.[/LIST]
The current look right now is the latter of the two, and JLC was extremely pessimistic about the chances of success for the Redskins, as am I. Bruce Allen's strengths have never been personnel (he's earned his experience through contracts/negotiations with agents), and now we're going to have to live through another round of Danny boy fiddling with the roster

[B]I can't see why it's so damn hard to hire a true GM and step back and let the process play. He wants to be involved, and beyond that I think he LOOOOVESSS to be involved. It's his team and he can do whatever he wants. [/B]

I really hope this isn't the case, because we're in for another long stretch folks if it is. [/quote]

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

Let me be clear. I am advocating for a true GM because I think these two previously (repeatedly) used templates for running the organization suck.

[LIST=1][*]Give a coach 100% control over football operation. (Shottenheimer, Gibbs, Shanahan)[*]Handcuff F/O and coach with Quasi-GM bureaucratic mess (Spurrier, Zorn)[/LIST]

My proposed solution is for a true GM (not Snyder's right hand man), with respectable football organizational and social skills to provide a coaching staff with the tools for success.

Perhaps Allen and co can succeed with this template, but I'm worried about the influence Snyder has on the team, due to the track record. I'm hoping more changes come, and Snyder openly and officially steps back and let's the football guys do what they know how to do.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

I like Allen in this role because I don't think he would be the guy who will make the personnel decision. I think he is a good leader who understands how to delegate responsibility and will lean on the advice of his scouting group.

Surely he will also be smart enough to take advice from the coach on scheme fit.

My biggest beef all along has been no separation between church and state. Meaning, I hate how Shanahan had both final say on personnel and coaching decisions. It's impossible to remain objective and it's just too much for one person to worry about.

You want someone who knows how to coach and can identify scheme fit. You want someone who really knows how to scout and can identify talent. And you want someone capable of balancing it all and making sensible decisions, without being too deep into the weeds - that's Allen.

Cerrato never used the scouting department. And if Shanahan ignored them, that was a mistake too. Supposedly they are well-regarded. They'll have more input into personnel decisions than Allen will, he'll just be the guy enabling them to do it, and pulling the trigger.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;1052458Cerrato never used the scouting department. And if Shanahan ignored them, that was a mistake too. Supposedly they are well-regarded. They'll have more input into personnel decisions than Allen will, he'll just be the guy enabling them to do it, and pulling the trigger.[/QUOTE]

I really hope that is what Allen meant when he said he wanted to give Scott Campbell & Morocco Brown a chance to succeed. The more I think about it the more I get the feeling that Allen will use his resources and let them do the work their supposed to do and most importantly TRUST their work.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

Mr. Allen, I know a boss when I see one and you sir are no boss. For 4 years you were collecting a paycheck as the GM of this team when in reality Shannahan was the GM and you were the GM in name only. Now you want us to believe you are the boss? Is that your jet flying around picking up the Griffins? Is that your limo chauffeuring the wife of a particular player? You and your BOSS disgust me. May the lord save us from your "leadership."

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

Shanahan would be proud that his message of BS got through... to some at least.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

While maybe not having a true GM was a mistake, I get so tired of hearing how poor of an owner Snyder is. We rehash and rehash facts from almost ten years ago. Sure, I'd love a more traditional model since we like to do things the ass-backwards way, but saying Allen is just a yes-man after Snyder backing off for years is quite a stretch when there's nothing to prove otherwise.

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[quote=Mattyk;1052467]Shanahan would be proud that his message of BS got through... to some at least.[/quote]

No kidding. What an incredible level if ignorance that statement took.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

A good GM delegates everything and manages those people, just like a good HC.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=RobH4413;1052457]Let me be clear. I am advocating for a true GM because I think these two previously (repeatedly) used templates for running the organization suck.

[LIST=1][*]Give a coach 100% control over football operation. (Shottenheimer, Gibbs, Shanahan)[*]Handcuff F/O and coach with Quasi-GM bureaucratic mess (Spurrier, Zorn)[/LIST]

My proposed solution is for a true GM (not Snyder's right hand man), with respectable football organizational and social skills to provide a coaching staff with the tools for success.

Perhaps Allen and co can succeed with this template, but I'm worried about the influence Snyder has on the team, due to the track record. I'm hoping more changes come, and Snyder openly and officially steps back and let's the football guys do what they know how to do.[/quote]

I agree we need a true GM, but I am not sold that Snyder had shown the ability to hire a competent one that he trusts to run the show