Can we stop now please?
 

From the Washington Post article about Gibbs presser,
"Trading wide receiver Laveranues Coles to the New York Jets for wideout Santana Moss caused a salary-cap bind after a $9 million cap hit (with a net cap cost of roughly $6 million). Nonetheless, Gibbs indicated the Redskins wouldn't have gone above their budget to sign Pierce or Smoot even if the club had had more cap room."

They weren't going to spend the money regardless.. Lets stop blaming the trade for everything and move on..

Re: Can we stop now please?
 

I agree, we do need to stop.

And everyone has to realize that Smoot in no way deserves more than Springs, Pierce does not deserve more than M. Washington and Coles is a piece of crap that has no right to question joe freaking gibbs. Last I checked he has a bum toe, and has pissed off every team he has played for.

Sure Smoot and Pierce have been here longer than Springs and Washington, but the flip side of that is where is the loyalty?

Smoot wasn't our best corner and Pierce was not our best Linebacker, there is no arguing that. [b]WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD WE PAY THEM OTHERWISE??[/b]

Re: Can we stop now please?
 

Yeah...the Jets were so pissed they wanted to match the offer. Then, they wanted that bastard back. What an asshole.

Re: Can we stop now please?
 

[QUOTE=jdlea]Yeah...the Jets were so pissed they wanted to match the offer. Then, they wanted that bastard back. What an asshole.[/QUOTE]
:doh:

Re: Can we stop now please?
 

Well the problem is this. If a player complains he doesn't want to be here are you simply just gonna let him go. Disregaurding all the consequences that loom. Mainly a salary cap hit. Basically we traded a great WR for sub-par talent. They are on no equal levels I do not care what you say it is true. If LaVar wanted out would you take the cap hit for a meriocre LB like Ike Reese. No, you wouldn't, this trade hurt us in more than one ways. One is that we let two core guys go and 2. Obviously no one is running this front office right. Coles will flourish being back with the Jets, him and C. Penn. were a deadly combo when he was there. I wouldn't bet the book on Santana Moss signing a long term deal with us either. David Patten is good not great, then if we draft a WR that will take a couple of years to bring him up. I love the Skins to death, but there offseason priorities were mixed up this year. I feel Smoot deserves more money than Springs. Smoot is going to give you everything he has on the field. Sure he might get burned once or twice, but who doesn't in the league. Only time will tell you about letting these players go. Pierce may not do all that great, but Smoot will be alright.

Re: Can we stop now please?
 

gibbs is covering his ass.
coles went to gibbs after the season and said he didnt want to be there anymore. coles did it right. man to man. didnt get the media involved. gibbs told coles he would release him if he gave up money coming to him. coles agreed. but gibbs lied to coles and didnt cut him. then coles told team he wanted a new contract just so the teams wouldnt trade for him. but the jets did.

i dont blame coles, every receiver on the team and every redskins fan hated the redskins passing game last year.

another thing, to let smoot go for 300k is bullshit on the skins. i just flat out dont think williams wants him on the team. i trust williams more than gibbs at this point, even thought i love smoot. but regardless, to let a player go for 300k is bullshit, hell they removed the offer so smoot wouldnt have been able to take the pay cut anyways.

no one should ever blame smoot for seeing what he could get through free agency. everyone here would've done the same thing.

who cares what springs signed for, we got him at a bargain price because of his past injuries. smoot deserved what he got. he earned it. he played harder than anyone on the team in the last 4 years. smoot has everyright to get as much as possible, this is the biggest contract he will ever get(maybe the last), he has to take care of his family. take care smoot.

pierce, only had one good year. he needs to prove he isnt a product of the system like trotter. so who cares about him.


gibbs is making some bigtime mistakes and blaming other people. i agree we need to move on, but we do need to realize gibbs is becoming a problem(btw, i love gibbs).

outlook: hopefully patten and moss are the types of receivers gibbs wants. hopefully gibbs opens up his passing game to include routes that are run downfield not only comeback routes. if he does that, portis should have an awesome year. hopefully they fix the blocking schemes because on paper, the OLine looks great but on grass they play like shit. getting jansen back is a big plus. rabach can hold his own. samuels should play better.

there is alot of hope for us. but it relies on joe gibbs and the changes he is making. gibbs could very easily get things into full swing the skins could be back into the SB hunt.

Re: Can we stop now please?
 

See above post. :biggthump
BRILLANT! Well said jamf

Re: Can we stop now please?
 

wow jamf... first smoot got paid very well in excess of what the skins could have possibly offered. he would average 6mill his first 3 years, we got 2mill in free space this year and we're 10mill over next year's cap as it stand now. It wasn't even close to just 300k.

And if you've listened to gibbs last 3 press conferences, you'd know his reasoning whether you like it or not. In order to get better price/performance from players, you gotta stop being known as the NFL's ATM. If we pay smoot more now, springs (or the next corner) is going to expect a hell of a lot more, since they're better than the highest earner on the team... its precedent.

Re: Can we stop now please?
 

I'm too lazy to look at Canuck's excellent cap sheets, but are there some FAs on our team coming up next year that we may need to "break the bank" to keep? Ramsey maybe? And that's why the Skins were "fiscally conservative" this offseason, to prepare themselves for next spring?

Re: Can we stop now please?
 

For what it's worth, Gibbs said over and over (as is his way) at the press conference that this is all his responsibility. He didn't blame anyone else that I heard. People on this board may have (I, for one) but not Gibbs.

As for Smoot, the bonus wasn't the money problem, it was the front-loaded 1st 3 years. Over the next three years it's a much bigger cap hit than the deal we offered, and it in effect guarantees Smoot a lot more, because the odds are hight that you play and get paid.

The Coles thing is becoming a he said/she said kind of thing. It's done: we took the cap hit, got a less talented receiver, and we still have to ink him (if we want to) to a long term deal. As for Gibbs being the problem, well, if you believe the papers, Coles said he felt it was gonna work out with the skins until the story hit the press and Danny went ape-shit. Sounds more like Danny's the problem, what a surprise there. But Coles gave up on GIbbs after ONE season, and that's weak, whatever else went on. Screw him for that.

As you said, Jamf, Gibbs could make it work next year and the changes will seem fine. I'm an optimist about it, because I think the key on offense is the O-line and the key on defense is Williams. Both outght to be cooking next year.

Re: Can we stop now please?
 

[QUOTE=That Guy]wow jamf... first smoot got paid very well in excess of what the skins could have possibly offered. he would average 6mill his first 3 years, we got 2mill in free space this year and we're 10mill over next year's cap as it stand now. It wasn't even close to just 300k.
[/QUOTE]
i meant 300k more in signing bonus. paying smoot 2 mill a year for the first 3 years is a bargain.

btw, if the skins draft a corner with the 9th pick, he is going to get nearly the same amount of money.


[QUOTE=That Guy]
If we pay smoot more now, springs (or the next corner) is going to expect a hell of a lot more, since they're better than the highest earner on the team... its precedent.[/QUOTE]
thats going to happen anyways.

springs is still undercontract for several more years, so it doesnt matter what smoot makes compared to springs.

one points you're missing is every year the salary cap increases with players salaries. also, players salaries are determined by demand. cornerbacks are in demand. ken lucas and henry are not as good as springs, but they are making more than he is. thats how free agency works.

Re: Can we stop now please?
 

Gibbs lied, Coles did it right. Don't judt release Coles and he ends up with the Cowboys or Giants. Bad enough about Pierce. Trade him out of the conference altogether, get Santana Moss in return,less than half mil. yr and who I think will do more for us.

Re: Can we stop now please?
 

I hear people saying someone needs to learn to run the front office, have you given it any thought that this might be the right approach finally, with not giving in to these high salary demands and keeping core groups of players together. As much as they say they wanted to be core redskins take the good money and commit to that of what you were offered fair value to be with your team. I don't fault them, but come on the front office can only go so far and they have gone way beyond that in the past spending, put a stop to it and pay only what they deserve, not what the player thinks he deserves.

Smoot and Pierce made statements that the offers would have to be mind blowing for them to leave. The only person I heard that committed themselves to exactly that is a coach by the name of Gregg Williams who would have been in high demand this year, I'm sure. Smoot and Pierce figures were not off by that much, Smoot specifically 1 to 2 mil won't make me go. Right!!!

If we would have signed them to these deals in another year we would be having the same discussion about Springs and Marcus Washington and other players when they outplayed the other players again and playing for a lower salary. It goes on they finally have a plan to try to bring some unity between the players, but you can't sacrifice a team for a player. As much as I would have love to have brought all the players back and build onto that, but that is not how it works every team has to give up big name and key players every year.

Let's finally make up for the mistakes we have made for the last four or five years in our free agency purges. Money is really tight for the skins for the reasons everyone is arguing about. We have made a name for ourselves as big spenders and it will take a year or two to change that and gain key players because we are a winning organization and not a bank for people to come in for big contracts and then go back to other teams for alot less. Eagles/Patriots/Jets. Winning is the reason key players stay with those organizations. Their are money hungry players and indiviulist all through this league, but at leat two of those teams I names above you never hear year after year with a high turnover or off the wall moves. Bring in one or two key players a year to fill in those voids from the previous season.

Re: Can we stop now please?
 

jamf: paying smoot nothing and having harris or wilds step up...now THAT is a bargain.

This reminds me a lot of when the Chargers dumped Seau and Harrison. Everybody cried over that and two years later they are in the playoffs. (We keep trying to use the Pats as a comparison but I am a little more realistic. The Chargers and Skins have young QB's, awesome RB's, no WR's and I don't think most people would see Pierce as better than Seau or Smoot as better than Harrison. The dlesson to be learned from the Bolts is to not get tied up with emotions and maybe just maybe, in two years we can be $20 mil under the cap too.)

Re: Can we stop now please?
 

[QUOTE=jamf]gibbs is covering his ass.
coles went to gibbs after the season and said he didnt want to be there anymore. coles did it right. man to man. didnt get the media involved. gibbs told coles he would release him if he gave up money coming to him. coles agreed. but gibbs lied to coles and didnt cut him. then coles told team he wanted a new contract just so the teams wouldnt trade for him. but the jets did.
[/QUOTE]
No actually the release was Synder's idea and was never officially agreed to from the Skins perspective. So you can't say that Gibbs lied because he didn't.
[QUOTE=jamf]
i dont blame coles, every receiver on the team and every redskins fan hated the redskins passing game last year.
[/QUOTE]
He was getting paid enough that he didn't have the right to put the team in this position. Plus he had the second most balls thrown his way in the NFL. Plus Gibbs promised him they were making wholesale changes to the offense. Plus Ramsey would be starting which would automatically make it better in terms of downfield attack. Lots of pluses there.
[QUOTE=jamf]
another thing, to let smoot go for 300k is bullshit on the skins. i just flat out dont think williams wants him on the team. i trust williams more than gibbs at this point, even thought i love smoot. but regardless, to let a player go for 300k is bullshit, hell they removed the offer so smoot wouldnt have been able to take the pay cut anyways.
[/QUOTE]
First it is alleged (and not by super reliable source) that they either removed the offer or lowered it. It didn't make any sense for them to do that since he was getting little action. They had to think their offer was the best he was gonna get. Why lower it? Thye probably didn't. That wa speculation.
Second they lost him for more like 4 million when you account for the higher first three years of salary. This is a common ploy perfected by our very own Redskins to steal a FA away. We always backload deals on current players to keep cap room. It is planned out years in advance. Vikings made a good move to frontload it knowing we wouldn't do it.
[QUOTE=jamf]
no one should ever blame smoot for seeing what he could get through free agency. everyone here would've done the same thing.
[/QUOTE]
100% agreed
[QUOTE=jamf]
gibbs is making some bigtime mistakes and blaming other people. i agree we need to move on, but we do need to realize gibbs is becoming a problem(btw, i love gibbs).
[/QUOTE]
exactly who else is he blaming. i seem to remember hearing him take responsibility about 100 times now. this is an asanine statement.

Re: Can we stop now please?
 

According to a recent article in the Post the team has a 3-year plan financial at all times, so moves they make (or don't make) now will effect our 3-year plan.

Perhaps if we brought back Pierce and Smoot it would cost us Ramsey down the road, or another key player.

I really liked how they put a firm price on Smoot and Pierce and didn't budge. That's how the majority of NFL teams operate. The team wasn't interested in giving Pierce more money than they gave Washington a year ago. Can you blame them? Who is the better player straight up? Pierce or Washington? I think the answer is pretty clear.

They also didn't want to give Smoot more than they gave Springs a year ago, and again, can you blame them? Again the answer is pretty clear who the better overall player is. Springs had a Pro Bowl quality season for us and a better season than Smoot. So we should reward Smoot with a bigger deal than Springs?

I just think it's so funny that for the past few offseasons we've always complained that the team is too lose with their wallet, and now that they are tightening it up and playing it smart all of a sudden the sky is falling.

Like Gibbs said, the last 2 offseasons we've lost 3 key free agents (Pierce, Smoot and Bryan Johnson), I'd really like to know how that compares with other teams because I think it's pretty damn good.

Re: Can we stop now please?
 

I agree and I am done complaining about the free agent losses.

However, I am still having a hard time coming to terms with the Coles trade though. I know he needed to go, but I still feel that releasing him would have been the better outcome for the Redskins. I just think they were to hung up on getting something for him even if it hurt them in the long run. Snyder was pissed and he didn't want to give in to Coles, but the smart thing for the Redskins to do would have been to swallow thier pride and cut him and move on...

Re: Can we stop now please?
 

[QUOTE=jamf]i meant 300k more in signing bonus. paying smoot 2 mill a year for the first 3 years is a bargain.

btw, if the skins draft a corner with the 9th pick, he is going to get nearly the same amount of money.



thats going to happen anyways.

springs is still undercontract for several more years, so it doesnt matter what smoot makes compared to springs.

one points you're missing is every year the salary cap increases with players salaries. also, players salaries are determined by demand. cornerbacks are in demand. ken lucas and henry are not as good as springs, but they are making more than he is. thats how free agency works.[/QUOTE]

um, lets try this again... 2mill a year for smoot WOULD be a bargain, but over the first 3 years washington offered about $15mill and the vikes offered 20mill$... it was not 300k, the signing bonus is not the same thing as the entire contract. the vikess also gave a 6 year contract, skins only offered 5.

I'm not missing the point, i understand how the cap works just fine. I said WHETHER YOU AGREE OR NOT, THIS IS WHAT [b]GIBBS[/b] HAS SAID, many many times now. In a sellers market prices are higher, and there's some inflation every year. BUT, smoot was offered slightly more than springs even though he wasn't as good, so i think the offer was fair enough.

Re: Can we stop now please?
 

[QUOTE=celts32]I agree and I am done complaining about the free agent losses.

However, I am still having a hard time coming to terms with the Coles trade though. I know he needed to go, but I still feel that releasing him would have been the better outcome for the Redskins. I just think they were to hung up on getting something for him even if it hurt them in the long run. Snyder was pissed and he didn't want to give in to Coles, but the smart thing for the Redskins to do would have been to swallow thier pride and cut him and move on...[/QUOTE]

I would have sat his ass the hole season and if he had made trouble I would have fine him and made him stay home! I bet a loss season would change his tune!

Re: Can we stop now please?
 

[QUOTE=celts32]I agree and I am done complaining about the free agent losses.

However, I am still having a hard time coming to terms with the Coles trade though. I know he needed to go, but I still feel that releasing him would have been the better outcome for the Redskins. I just think they were to hung up on getting something for him even if it hurt them in the long run. Snyder was pissed and he didn't want to give in to Coles, but the smart thing for the Redskins to do would have been to swallow thier pride and cut him and move on...[/QUOTE]

Releasing him is not as great an idea as you think it is. It sucks bad enough that Pierce is a Giant, you think it would be worth taking the chance that Coles became a Cowboy?

And Gibbs is obviously quite interested in speed at receiver. Given that parameter, who would you replace Coles with if you didn't get Santana Moss? Plax? Not fast enough. Derrick Mason? He's quick, but getting older and will slow down soon.

You can't just talk about let's get this guy, let's get that guy, let's get whoever. You have to target players that fit into Gibbs' vision of what the team should look like. I for one trust his vision more than anyone else's. I think Santana Moss fits into that vision better than any FA receiver out there, and much better than Coles with a bum toe.

Re: Can we stop now please?
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]Releasing him is not as great an idea as you think it is. It sucks bad enough that Pierce is a Giant, you think it would be worth taking the chance that Coles became a Cowboy?

And Gibbs is obviously quite interested in speed at receiver. Given that parameter, who would you replace Coles with if you didn't get Santana Moss? Plax? Not fast enough. Derrick Mason? He's quick, but getting older and will slow down soon.

You can't just talk about let's get this guy, let's get that guy, let's get whoever. You have to target players that fit into Gibbs' vision of what the team should look like. I for one trust his vision more than anyone else's. I think Santana Moss fits into that vision better than any FA receiver out there, and much better than Coles with a bum toe.[/QUOTE]


Agreed. If Coles was FA, then I can bet the house that Parcells/Jones would've been all over him.

Re: Can we stop now please?
 

You're exactly right That Guy! And Matty, a big AMEN to ya brotha'! I would really like to know how Gibbs has lied to anybody? He made it perfectly clear to us that he was going to see who his core group of Redskins were going to be....guys who WANT to be Redskins and to put the team first over all this contract crap!

If we had just cut Coles, then we would STILL have to pay him money; and we wouldn't have gotten a receiver to replace him! I'll say this again, I would much rather take a healthy Santana Moss over an unhealthy Laveranues Coles - which is the way it is right now!

Re: Can we stop now please?
 

Gibbs has been a straight shooter since he came back.

He said last year wasn't going to be easy, I guess we choose not to listen and we found out the hard way that he wasn't just blowing smoke up our butts.

Before this offseason he said they were going to work hard to retain everyone, but losing guys is part of the free agency game and it just might happen whether they like it or not. Guess he was telling us the truth there too.

Re: Can we stop now please?
 

AND it sounds like to me we HAVE been working hard to keep everyone. But working hard is VERY different from working STUPID.

Re: Can we stop now please?
 

Call it what you will, but I guarantee Gibbs and co. have been bustin their tails and burning some serious midnight oil this offseason.

That's one reality show I'd love to see. Wouldn't it be great to see Gibbs and the staff gameplanning til the wee hours of the morning, or Gibbs and Snyder working the phones and crunching the numbers trying to get deals done? I'd pay to see that.

Re: Can we stop now please?
 

Like Gibbs said yesterday and someone else here stressed it as well; the front office is working toward seeing how things are going to be not just for this year, but for the coming years. Moves they make for this year are going to effect us in years to come. What they are doing this year isn't stupid at all. It might seem that way for those of us who don't understand the concept of pro team management, which is probably a great deal of us all!

Both Gibbs and I believe now Snyder wants long term success here in Washington. That means smarter management during the off-season....and Joe Gibbs has brought that to this organization. I think people will find out soon enough that the reason why Gibbs was a successful coach in the past isn't limited to what he did on the field, but the work he put into the team behind the scenes.

Re: Can we stop now please?
 

Sorry, I think I got misunderstood. What I'M saying is that they are playing the off-season game brilliantly. When I suggest that someone is playing it STUPID, I mean that overpaying for a free agent not worth his value is stupid. Sorry about the confusion.

Re: Can we stop now please?
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection]Sorry, I think I got misunderstood. What I'M saying is that they are playing the off-season game brilliantly. When I suggest that someone is playing it STUPID, I mean that overpaying for a free agent not worth his value is stupid. Sorry about the confusion.[/QUOTE]


Agree 100%!! Hopefully now we're turning over a new leaf! :biggthump

Re: Can we stop now please?
 

So far, so good man. I know we all hate the fact we lost Smoot, Pierce and Coles. But when I think about it, we would just be perpetuating the yearly idea of overpaying for people who aren't worth it. Maybe it is a "gets worse before it gets better situation," but in the end, the returns will be great. Again, someone listed the playmakers we have on the team and we DO have a large number of them.

Re: Can we stop now please?
 

Also remember that 12-14 points were all that kept us from being in the playoffs. Luck hopefully will be on our side this year as well. Lots of factors kept us from being the team we should have been last year. The honeymoon is over and it looks like Gibbs and Co. are getting down to business.

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[QUOTE=Paintrain]From the Washington Post article about Gibbs presser,
"Trading wide receiver Laveranues Coles to the New York Jets for wideout Santana Moss caused a salary-cap bind after a $9 million cap hit (with a net cap cost of roughly $6 million). Nonetheless, Gibbs indicated the Redskins wouldn't have gone above their budget to sign Pierce or Smoot even if the club had had more cap room."

They weren't going to spend the money regardless.. Lets stop blaming the trade for everything and move on..[/QUOTE]

I beg to differ.

Can someone please tell me when we last had $6.5 million (the amount of cap space we ate by trading Coles) in cap space before the regular season started? I don't think we've ever had that much room.

For starters, we could sign Burress to a one year deal (which he reportedly is seeking).

Second, we could use the cap space to restructure deals. Last season, the Vikings converted player salaries into roster bonuses. The idea being that if you do such deals, you incur a cap hit when you have the cap space in order to decrease your future cap figures.

Third, we could've used the $6.5 million to sign Smoot. For example, we could have given him a $6 million roster bonus for 2005. Our offer of a $10.5 million SB on a $30 million deal with a roster bonus of $6 million essentially would've given Smoot a $16 million signing bonus.

So, while there are plenty of good arguments for supporting the decision to trade Coles, let's not avoid reality and pretend we would've had $6.5 million in unused cap space. TRUST ME, with Snyder at the helm, it would've gone to good use.

Re: Can we stop now please?
 

hey jamf it is not gibbs, snyder should back off and let joe run the team. snyder ought to dump cerrato and let gibbs bring his own gm in. snyder is a money maker and a great one. he is not a damn football coach.

Re: Can we stop now please?
 

I really think that Gibbs and Snyder have fairly equal input. I don't think he is meddling as much because he trust Gibbs' judgement.

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[QUOTE=Ramseyfan]I beg to differ.

Can someone please tell me when we last had $6.5 million (the amount of cap space we ate by trading Coles) in cap space before the regular season started? I don't think we've ever had that much room.

For starters, we could sign Burress to a one year deal (which he reportedly is seeking).

Second, we could use the cap space to restructure deals. Last season, the Vikings converted player salaries into roster bonuses. The idea being that if you do such deals, you incur a cap hit when you have the cap space in order to decrease your future cap figures.

Third, we could've used the $6.5 million to sign Smoot. For example, we could have given him a $6 million roster bonus for 2005. Our offer of a $10.5 million SB on a $30 million deal with a roster bonus of $6 million essentially would've given Smoot a $16 million signing bonus.

So, while there are plenty of good arguments for supporting the decision to trade Coles, let's not avoid reality and pretend we would've had $6.5 million in unused cap space. TRUST ME, with Snyder at the helm, it would've gone to good use.[/QUOTE]

We can linger in the hypotheticals all day.. I'm going with what Gibbs said. He said that with the cap room or without, he wasn't going above what they had determined to be fair market contracts. They made their offers, they weren't accepted, it's time to move on..

The trade was made, the cap hit was big.. Hopefully Moss comes in and is more like 2003 Moss than 2004 Moss.. I don't care if Coles has 1 or 100 catches next year for the Jets.. Maybe it will work, maybe it won't, it's time to move on..

Re: Can we stop now please?
 

Yup... and I don't even think we play the Jets next year.

Re: Can we stop now please?
 

Yeah it is getting sort of old. But, we just have you agree to disagree. You don't think the $6.5 million had any impact on our salary cap situation/ability to sign other guys. I do. We'll leave it at that.