The Future is Here: The NFL and the Pistol Offense
 

[url=http://www.sbnation.com/longform/2012/12/27/3792740/pistol-offense-nfl-redskins-rg3]The future is already here: How the Pistol Offense is changing the NFL - SBNation.com[/url]

Re: The Future is Here: The NFL and the Pistol Offense
 

[quote=SmootSmack;980426][url=http://www.sbnation.com/longform/2012/12/27/3792740/pistol-offense-nfl-redskins-rg3]The future is already here: How the Pistol Offense is changing the NFL - SBNation.com[/url][/quote]

Good read, love the images changing as you scroll down

Re: The Future is Here: The NFL and the Pistol Offense
 

Excellent read SS. Thanks for that.

Re: The Future is Here: The NFL and the Pistol Offense
 

It's obvious from reading that article the Shanahans are nothing but thieves, stealing college coaches' concepts like that. If only we didn't have Griffin so he would stop making them look so good, so they could be fired. Then we can bring in Andy Reid and his innovative "don't run the ball" offense.

Seriously, great read SS. Thanks for sharing.

Re: The Future is Here: The NFL and the Pistol Offense
 

Wonderful read -- good to understand why the Redskins are utilizing RG3 so well. Just hope he can avoid those injuries.

Re: The Future is Here: The NFL and the Pistol Offense
 

Yes the pistol Offense look very nice.

[IMG]http://cdn1.sbnation.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/3622717/ll-lede-2.0_cinema_1050.0.jpg[/IMG]

Re: The Future is Here: The NFL and the Pistol Offense
 

[quote=mooby;980447]It's obvious from reading that article the Shanahans are nothing but thieves, stealing college coaches' concepts like that. If only we didn't have Griffin so he would stop making them look so good, so they could be fired. Then we can bring in Andy Reid and his innovative "don't run the ball" offense.

Seriously, great read SS. Thanks for sharing.[/quote]

You let the Shanahans off too easily. Not only are they thieves, but they are holding Griff back despite their thievery. :)

Re: The Future is Here: The NFL and the Pistol Offense
 

I think it's way too early to tell whether the pistol will endure at the pro level or fizzle out like the wildcat. If memory serves the wildcat produced something like 10 yards per play at first, anybody know what the pistol is yielding? With its pass option the pistol seems more likely to endure, but for how long is still the question. And there's still the issue of increased contact/injury to the QB, which the author should have just left alone (as TBD) because the attempted answer was pretty weak.

For my own take, an offense using the pistol must win the Lombardi before it moves beyond the gimmick phase (I thought the same about the wildcat). The dolphins looked unstoppable for a couple years, but where'd it go?

Re: The Future is Here: The NFL and the Pistol Offense
 

It's not so much the offense itself as much as it's the QBs that makes the pistol really go.

It's not a gimmick, just a shorter shotgun that allows you more freedom to run or pass and keeps defenses on their heels.

Re: The Future is Here: The NFL and the Pistol Offense
 

[quote=The Goat;980469]I think it's way too early to tell whether the pistol will endure at the pro level or fizzle out like the wildcat. If memory serves the wildcat produced something like 10 yards per play at first, anybody know what the pistol is yielding? With its pass option the pistol seems more likely to endure, but for how long is still the question. And there's still the issue of increased contact/injury to the QB, which the author should have just left alone (as TBD) because the attempted answer was pretty weak.

For my own take, an offense using the pistol must win the Lombardi before it moves beyond the gimmick phase (I thought the same about the wildcat). The dolphins looked unstoppable for a couple years, but where'd it go?[/quote]

You are comparing apples and oranges by comparing the wildcat to the pistol. The wildcat (which has not disappeared, as you intimate) has always been a change of pace, not the centerpiece of offensive strategy. The pistol, on the other hand, has for several games been the centerpiece around which Kyle's offense is designed. It is much harder for the fulcrum of an offense to disappear than it is for a frill to be set aside.

Re: The Future is Here: The NFL and the Pistol Offense
 

The Wildcat has been mostly run by "non-QBs" I would say the beauty of the pistol is the ability to throw more effectly out of it by a compentent passer AND its ability to make the Defense account for the QB as a part of the "running game" as that article describes. Its back to 11 on 11 football, not 11 on 10 with the QB standing around watching after the handoff. It has forced safeties to play up close to stop the run and then the QB throws over their head.

Re: The Future is Here: The NFL and the Pistol Offense
 

In the off season defenses will study this and adjust. I'm just not sure how you completly stop it with a guy like RG3. If you commit more guys to the line he can and will burn you throwing. If you sit back then Morris will get his. I think you just have to commit to one or the other. It looked like Dallas had it bottled up in the 2nd half of the Thanksgiving game by bringing extra guys on run blitzes.

Re: The Future is Here: The NFL and the Pistol Offense
 

[quote=Lotus;980472]You are comparing apples and oranges by comparing the wildcat to the pistol. The wildcat (which has not disappeared, as you intimate) has always been a change of pace, not the centerpiece of offensive strategy. The pistol, on the other hand, has for several games been the centerpiece around which Kyle's offense is designed. It is much harder for the fulcrum of an offense to disappear than it is for a frill to be set aside.[/quote]

Where is the wildcat still used (effectively)?

I believe Miami initially used the wildcat roughly as often as we use the pistol. Regardless of the definition of "centerpiece" the question remains whether defensive gurus adjust their scheme over the coming seasons to minimize the pistol's effectiveness.

I think it's a tough call. With the right QB (RG, Wilson, etc) it certainly puts the defense on its heals right now. What's it gonna do next year, and the year after? I have nowhere near the football IQ to make an educated guess.

Re: The Future is Here: The NFL and the Pistol Offense
 

[quote=Mattyk;980471][B]It's not so much the offense itself as much as it's the QBs that makes the pistol really go.[/B]

It's not a gimmick, just a shorter shotgun that allows you more freedom to run or pass and keeps defenses on their heels.[/quote]

Yeppers, and the entire premise is based on the threat of the QB keeping the pigskin X% of the time, right?

Re: The Future is Here: The NFL and the Pistol Offense
 

[quote=The Goat;980485]Where is the wildcat still used (effectively)?

I believe Miami initially used the wildcat roughly as often as we use the pistol. Regardless of the definition of "centerpiece" the question remains whether defensive gurus adjust their scheme over the coming seasons to minimize the pistol's effectiveness.

I think it's a tough call. With the right QB (RG, Wilson, etc) it certainly puts the defense on its heals right now. What's it gonna do next year, and the year after? I have nowhere near the football IQ to make an educated guess.[/quote]

1) Several teams still use the wildcat from time to time. You may have read a story this week about Tebow refusing to wildcat for the Jets last weekend.

2) Miami NEVER used the wildcat the way we use the pistol. In its greatest heyday the Fins wildcatted about 4 plays a game at most. On the other hand, we have used the pistol as our standard formation for the entirety of several games.

Re: The Future is Here: The NFL and the Pistol Offense
 

[quote=Lotus;980491]1) Several teams still use the wildcat from time to time. You may have read a story this week about Tebow refusing to wildcat for the Jets last weekend.

2) Miami NEVER used the wildcat the way we use the pistol. In its greatest heyday the Fins wildcatted about 4 plays a game at most. On the other hand, we have used the pistol as our standard formation for the entirety of several games.[/quote]

[url=http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/dave_hyde/10/21/wildcat/index.html]Miami Dolphins are successful running Wildcat offense - Dave Hyde - SI.com[/url]

See link: Dolphins used it about 10 times per game, though I'm not sure if that was the peak because I remember Williams/Brown doing it nearly every other play for awhile.

And again, where is it effective today? I don't care what the Jets do, but are teams winning with it?

Re: The Future is Here: The NFL and the Pistol Offense
 

[quote=The Goat;980492][url=http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/dave_hyde/10/21/wildcat/index.html]Miami Dolphins are successful running Wildcat offense - Dave Hyde - SI.com[/url]

See link: Dolphins used it about 10 times per game, though I'm not sure if that was the peak because I remember Williams/Brown doing it nearly every other play for awhile.

And again, where is it effective today? I don't care what the Jets do, but are teams winning with it?[/quote]

You continue to COMPLETELY miss my point. Let me try one last time:

1) Using the wildcat for a handful of plays is not the same as running the pistol virtually all game long. The Dolphins offense was never designed around the wildcat. Even at its fullest use the wildcat was still a Dolphin accessory. Even your own link shows this: if teams typically run 60 plays a game, and at its most the wildcat was used for 10 plays, what do you think was happening for the other 50 plays? 10/60 is a sidebar, not a centerpiece.

In contrast, our offense is built around the pistol - or at least it has been for several games. We sometimes have been in the pistol almost all game long. This makes the pistol a centerpiece.

This point is not difficult to grasp.

2) Where did the words "success" and "effective" get smuggled into things? I never even hinted at those words. My argument remains, whether the offensive schemes are successful or not.

Re: The Future is Here: The NFL and the Pistol Offense
 

[quote=The Goat;980486]Yeppers, and the entire premise is based on the threat of the QB keeping the pigskin X% of the time, right?[/quote]

I don't think that's accurate

Re: The Future is Here: The NFL and the Pistol Offense
 

[quote=The Goat;980486]Yeppers, and the entire premise is based on the threat of the QB keeping the pigskin X% of the time, right?[/quote]

I'd say its the threat of the QB being able to run period.

As the season has gone on Griffin has run less and less, but the offense still works.

Re: The Future is Here: The NFL and the Pistol Offense
 

[quote=firstdown;980453]Yes the pistol Offense look very nice.

[IMG]http://cdn1.sbnation.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/3622717/ll-lede-2.0_cinema_1050.0.jpg[/IMG][/quote]
Are those their retro uni's?
....look good

Re: The Future is Here: The NFL and the Pistol Offense
 

[quote=The Goat;980486]Yeppers, and the entire premise is based on the threat of the QB keeping the pigskin X% of the time, right?[/quote]

No. The pistol is a formation, not a play. There is no premise that the QB will keep the ball. You can run the pistol without the QB's EVER keeping the ball. You can run the pistol without EVER running a read option.

You seem not to be able to differentiate the pistol (a formation) from the read option (which is a play).

Re: The Future is Here: The NFL and the Pistol Offense
 

[quote=firstdown;980453]Yes the pistol Offense look very nice.

[IMG]http://cdn1.sbnation.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/3622717/ll-lede-2.0_cinema_1050.0.jpg[/IMG][/quote]

I'd always work from under center...

Re: The Future is Here: The NFL and the Pistol Offense
 

Very good read, but I disagree with his assessment that the pistol or read option will be the future of the NFL. This one portion of article sums up why it will never be a mainstay as a offense.


[quote] Critics argue that these attacks create an increased risk of injury to quarterbacks. That is a real concern, and if anything can short circuit these changes to the NFL game, it is this.[/quote]


It's not that defenses will catch up to this, but the fact the read option opens up your QB to be hit on every play. If teams can get a free shot in on your franchise QB, they will and I don't blame them.

I do however think this will be used from time to time during games as a change of pace, or to catch a defense off guard.

Re: The Future is Here: The NFL and the Pistol Offense
 

[quote=NC_Skins;980522]Very good read, but I disagree with his assessment that the pistol or read option will be the future of the NFL. This one portion of article sums up why it will never be a mainstay as a offense.





It's not that defenses will catch up to this, but the fact the read option opens up your QB to be hit on every play. If teams can get a free shot in on your franchise QB, they will and I don't blame them.

I do however think this will be used from time to time during games as a change of pace, or to catch a defense off guard.[/quote]

Yeah but the article also points out that pocket passers aren't immune to injuries or big hits. That's football.

Re: The Future is Here: The NFL and the Pistol Offense
 

[quote=Mattyk;980528]Yeah but the article also points out that pocket passers aren't immune to injuries or big hits. That's football.[/quote]

Nobody is saying that pocket passers are immune to injuries.

Of course they aren't immune to injuries, but they are also untouchable (for the most part) once they release that ball. Not in the read option. The QB is still fair game because he's a runner. We saw this in the Bengals game. They lit him up at every chance, and quite frankly they should have.

It's one thing to incur injuries in the normal flow of the game, it's another to put your most important person in a position to get hurt even more. Much like that ill advised pass to RGIII? Same thing with option plays. Sure he can get hurt in the pocket, but it's much smarter not to even subject him to those unnecessary hits when you don't have to.

Most old school fans hate the new pistol formation stuff just the way it is.

Sent from my Next7P12-8G using Tapatalk 2

Re: The Future is Here: The NFL and the Pistol Offense
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;980533]Most old school fans hate the new pistol formation stuff just the way it is.

Sent from my Next7P12-8G using Tapatalk 2[/quote]

Damn newfangled formations are ruining a good game of football.

Re: The Future is Here: The NFL and the Pistol Offense
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;980533]Most [B]old school fans hate the new pistol formation[/B] stuff just the way it is.

Sent from my Next7P12-8G using Tapatalk 2[/quote]

I think that's probably complete BS......
Just....Win Baby! Pistol....Rifle....Grenade launcher...Just Win!

Sent from my Oldschooldude BS detecting morse codeatalk 2

Re: The Future is Here: The NFL and the Pistol Offense
 

Any Redskins fans around from when the Cowboys started using the shotgun, and Gibbs wouldn't use it. I just think this is a very close facsimile of that, except in reverse.

There are a bunch of Cowboys fans on their board that says this will never work. The problem with that is, the whole premise of the pistol blends the best part of a pro-style running game - north south hard hitting running, with the best part of a shotgun formation, the qb's ability to survey the d while standing and receiving the ball in a position that he can release it quickly. It also removes the inherent weakness of the qb lining up under center - which means he has his head down, and is immediately moving backwards at the snap, and the weakness of the shotgun which forces the running game to be much more east west, and less effective.

Re: The Future is Here: The NFL and the Pistol Offense
 

Watching Baylor running the pistol against UCLA in the Holiday Bowl on ESPN right now. RB Martin IV looks good. Big, strong, hard running RB that would look good in the burgundy and gold. Just saying.

Re: The Future is Here: The NFL and the Pistol Offense
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;980538]Any Redskins fans around from when the Cowboys started using the shotgun, and Gibbs wouldn't use it. I just think this is a very close facsimile of that, except in reverse.

[B]There are a bunch of Cowboys fans on their board that says this will never work.[/B] The problem with that is, the whole premise of the pistol blends the best part of a pro-style running game - north south hard hitting running, with the best part of a shotgun formation, the qb's ability to survey the d while standing and receiving the ball in a position that he can release it quickly. It also removes the inherent weakness of the qb lining up under center - which means he has his head down, and is immediately moving backwards at the snap, and the weakness of the shotgun which forces the running game to be much more east west, and less effective.[/quote]

Those Cowboyszone fans are correct. It will never work. That's why our offense is in the top 5. :)

Re: The Future is Here: The NFL and the Pistol Offense
 

[quote=Mattyk;980512]I'd say its the threat of the QB being able to run period.

As the season has gone on Griffin has run less and less, but the offense still works.[/quote]

This is how I see it. And your second statement is key IMO.

Re: The Future is Here: The NFL and the Pistol Offense
 

[quote=Lotus;980520]No. The pistol is a formation, not a play. There is no premise that the QB will keep the ball. You can run the pistol without the QB's EVER keeping the ball. You can run the pistol without EVER running a read option.

You seem not to be able to differentiate the pistol (a formation) from the read option (which is a play).[/quote]

Curious how/why the pistol puts the defense back on its heels in your opinion?

Re: The Future is Here: The NFL and the Pistol Offense
 

[quote=Defensewins;980542]Watching Baylor running the pistol against UCLA in the Holiday Bowl on ESPN right now. RB Martin IV looks good. Big, strong, hard running RB that would look good in the burgundy and gold. Just saying.[/quote]

Quiet a few good prospects from today's games; I'm gonna have to update the draft thread later. Cincy has a TE who's brother playes center for the eagles(kelce). He looks great and is gonna go late.

The pistol is used well at Baylor. Florence has kept Baylor relevant after RG3 left and the offense really hasn't skipped a beat with him in there. Wouldn't surprise me in a year or two if two pistol offensive guys (Chris Ault of Nevada and Art Briles of Baylor) were head coaching candidates for the NFL.

[QUOTE=The Goat;980561]Curious how/why the pistol puts the defense back on its heels in your opinion?[/QUOTE]

In the pistol the defense sees a look that forces it to account for both an inside run, and 2 quick release passes - one to a flanked wr and one to a TE on an inside seam route. They are forced to defend the whole field from sideline to sideline and from the LOS to 6 yds deep within a second of the snap. If the qb reads it right, there is almost always a scheme advantage to the offense.

Also, defending the whole field is tiring. Think about a WR screen. from the offensive side, the qb gets the snap and releases it, the WR is in position so until he catches it there isn't a lot of energy spent, but the dline at the snap is pushing hard upfield and in a split second is turning against its grain and running across the field. MS has said that's the reason we see so many wide plays at the beginning of games, to get those dline guys running sideline to sideline.

Further, an under the center the snap that is a designed pass gives the defense a few steps to set up as the qb takes his drop, a shotgun formation allows the dline to be more aggressive towards the pass rush, because inside runs are hard from that formation.

The key to the pistol is having a qb that can quickly see the best point of attack on the presnap and at the snap reads, the article pointed out this is one of RG3s strengths that doesn't get mentioned as much.

Re: The Future is Here: The NFL and the Pistol Offense
 

[quote=SmootSmack;980426][URL="http://www.sbnation.com/longform/2012/12/27/3792740/pistol-offense-nfl-redskins-rg3"]The future is already here: How the Pistol Offense is changing the NFL - SBNation.com[/URL][/quote]


Nice read,yet I disgaree it's the future. A fad or trend yes and as most do they work...for a while .If they run up against a defense that is discipline in it's assignments you run into trouble.Go back to the 70's and you'll see a few teams tinkered with the wishbone offense but the D coordinators figured it out and it stopped.Assign a man to each player,1 take the up back another the QB and one the pitch man and just tackel them ball or no ball.
The option ,Pistol ...whatever it is ,is working becuase of pass rushers who won't play the run and aren't dissipline JPP and Ware come to mind.What makes Griffin so good is his sight and speed ,for as new as he is in the NFL he reads D's very well and can pretty much out run anyone on the field all of this makes his play play fakes more deadly.

Re: The Future is Here: The NFL and the Pistol Offense
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;980571]In the pistol the defense sees a look that forces it to account for both an inside run, and 2 quick release passes - one to a flanked wr and one to a TE on an inside seam route. They are forced to defend the whole field from sideline to sideline and from the LOS to 6 yds deep within a second of the snap. If the qb reads it right, there is almost always a scheme advantage to the offense.

Also, defending the whole field is tiring. Think about a WR screen. from the offensive side, the qb gets the snap and releases it, the WR is in position so until he catches it there isn't a lot of energy spent, but the dline at the snap is pushing hard upfield and in a split second is turning against its grain and running across the field. MS has said that's the reason we see so many wide plays at the beginning of games, to get those dline guys running sideline to sideline.

Further, an under the center the snap that is a designed pass gives the defense a few steps to set up as the qb takes his drop, a shotgun formation allows the dline to be more aggressive towards the pass rush, because inside runs are hard from that formation.

The key to the pistol is having a qb that can quickly see the best point of attack on the presnap and at the snap reads, the article pointed out this is one of RG3s strengths that doesn't get mentioned as much.[/quote]

Well put CRed!

Re: The Future is Here: The NFL and the Pistol Offense
 

[quote=The Goat;980561]Curious how/why the pistol puts the defense back on its heels in your opinion?[/quote]

Having three guys in the backfield in addition to our incredible QB allows for multiple backfield run options and multiple backfield blockers. This versatility is not present in the the conventional shotgun formation.
Having the QB five or so steps back, instead of under center give the QB time to adjust to an unblocked pass rusher in the play action passing game. Harder to sack the QB. The pistol combines the best of all formations.

But IMO what really makes it work for the Skins is our personnel and play calling. RGIII makes it all go, but unheard of guys like Logan Paulsen, Darrell Young and Niles Paul are a force in the running game and pass protection. I have not seen one them all season get knocked back on their ass while blocking. They are physical players in an age of football where physical play takes a back seat to high flying offenses and high stats passing games. You can not put a stat or value on physical play, because our uneducated NFL fans only wants to see long passes and TD's because that is all they understand.
[B]Balance[/B] on offense [B]as always is the key[/B] and the a potent down field pass attack from just two WR's, weather it be from Garcon and Morgan or a combination Moss, Aldrick Robinson and Hankerson is vital to keeping LB's and safety's guessing. They can not key on one thing- a physical and deceptive running game or a potent down field passing game. [B]Balance is what makes it all work and keeps the DB's and LB's on their heels.[/B]

Re: The Future is Here: The NFL and the Pistol Offense
 

Excellent points DW

Re: The Future is Here: The NFL and the Pistol Offense
 

Lotus has pointed it out often, but there are two separate and distinct parts to this.

The first is the formation (Pistol). I think you will see it sweep in next year, and with a nod to Cowboys Week, I can honestly say, I don't want to see it run by them this week. Murray, Witten, Bryant and Austin on the edges, and Romo directing it in pistol would be very potent against our D, even with Fletcher reading the play. But I think Garrett/Jones is to prideful to bring it in to their building, which is fine by me.

The second is a particular play (zone read). I think this will die out quickly, if it hasn't already. I don't know the specific stats but I think we maybe did it 3 times in the last 3 games. Griffin is an excellent ball handler, and decision maker, so he is good at it. But defenses are quick, and once they know where the ball is going they converge quickly so that the zone read tends to get snuffed out for minimal gain.

Basically, the pistol gives you a half second to second edge against the defense, which a qb can exploit with[LIST][*]a quick pass out to the edge if the corners are creeping in[*]a slant in the middle of the field if the LB's are stacking the box[*]a handoff, if the lbs are dropping into coverage[/LIST]That is something most offensive coordinators will love. On the other hand, the zone-read from out of the pistol uses that half second edge as an opportunity for Griffin to make a play with his natural (and amazing) speed to the corner.

The zone read playcall can't last because Griffin will slow down, and he will get hurt, the pistol formation will last, because oc's and qb's will find ways to take advantage of the defensive hesitation.