Trayvon Martin Case
 

By now everyone should have heard about it. Figured I'd put it in the Debating the Enemy thread in case there are dissenting viewpoints about the case and how it is/should be handled.

[url=http://news.yahoo.com/controversial-florida-law-heart-trayvon-martin-case-162500773.html]Trayvon Martin Case: Does Florida Law Protect Shooter? - Yahoo! News[/url]

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

Over zealous curtain-twitcher meets mouthy teenager.

Drop the race angle.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=RedskinRat;902361]Over zealous curtain-twitcher meets mouthy teenager.

Drop the race angle.[/quote]

I feel like that too... Somewhat. It's obvious that the shooter was a nut to begin with. But I think random black kid in the neighborhood had to of played at least a small role, but I'm not sure of the racial make up of Sanford. But I feel like if it was any seedy looking kid of any race, this still may have still been the final outcome.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

I think it's a bad law.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

Terrible law, crazy this guy has not been arrested as of yet. The dispatcher he was on the phone with told him not to confront the kid. He confronted him and scuffled with him and killed him. He needs to be in jail and hopefully will be shortly. If he ends up not getting any jail time I will lose the last thread of faith I have in our court systems.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=That Guy;902444]I think it's a bad law.[/quote]

I agree. I think it's like the Floridians say, it's shoot first ask questions later. I think the neighborhood watch guy deserves to be punished for this, and I don't want to start a racial conversation or anything but it sounds like this guy has a real problem with stereotyping minorities. He deserves whatever punishment he gets, I really hope the FBI/DOJ come down hard on him since the local authorities apparently won't.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[i]"The major problem with stand your ground is that it exists in tandem with state laws that allow so many loaded guns to be carried around in public," says Daniel Vice, senior attorney at the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence in Washington. [/i]

And yet the streets are NOT running with blood and Florida hasn't turned into the Wild West.

There's no way this guy should have shot the kid, Neighborhood Watch should be just that, 'WATCH' then report not try to be an enforcer.

Anyone remember a similar case with the old dude shooting two burglars after the dispatcher said don't do anything?

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

This is a no brainer. The guy was told not to pursue and he did, and ended up killing a person (17 year old kid) with no weapon. There is nothing that Zimmerman can claim that would justify his using lethal force. No knife, no gun, no bat, no nothing. Also, the fact he pursued and instigated the fight/scuffle is all the more reason to arrest, detain and charge Zimmerman with 2nd degree murder or Voluntary Manslaughter.

Inexcusable to say the least.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=RedskinRat;902361]Over zealous curtain-twitcher meets mouthy teenager.

Drop the race angle.[/quote]after listening to zimmerman's 911 call, i feel that martin's race played a role.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

You mean him calling the guy a F&^ing Cone brings race into the picture.LOL I think Zimmerman caused the problem but I don't think the other guy is the innocent little boy thay mak him out to be.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=firstdown;902646]You mean him calling the guy a F&^ing Cone brings race into the picture.LOL I think Zimmerman caused the problem but I don't think the other guy is the innocent little boy thay mak him out to be.[/quote]no, not even that, i'm still not sure i can hear him say that. i meant his tone, the way he describes martin, and other comments. as far as how innocent they make martin out to be, i have no idea, probably innocent enough not to be killed

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

I agree its not 100% clear that's what he said but it goes with the tone he had with 911 and I cannot think of any other word to replace coon. I'm sure the right person can clean up the tape to hear what he did say.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=firstdown;902652]I agree its not 100% clear that's what he said but it goes with the tone he had with 911 and [B]I cannot think of any other word to replace coon[/B]. I'm sure the right person can clean up the tape to hear what he did say.[/quote]


What about Cone?

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=RedskinRat;902361]Over zealous curtain-twitcher meets mouthy teenager.

Drop the race angle.[/quote]

Race has everything to do with this and if you don't think so you're a fcking moron.


If I'm Trayvon's father I'm playing the lead role in Law Abiding Citizen.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

This kid did nothing wrong and apparently you assholes think it's OK to shoot kids because they look suspicious or wear a hoddie and stand up to grown men stalking them.


Yo, close this thread before these morons say more stupid shit that makes no sense.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=saden1;902891]Race has everything to do with this and if you don't think so you're a fcking moron.


If I'm Trayvon's father I'm playing the lead role in Law Abiding Citizen.[/quote]

Sorry, didn't know you were there, hippie.....

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=saden1;902891]Race has everything to do with this and if you don't think so you're a fcking moron.


If I'm Trayvon's father I'm playing the lead role in Law Abiding Citizen.[/quote]

This. I think race has an awful lot to do with this. I think the definition of racism in this country is night and day from what true racism was back in the early to mid (to late) 1900's. Racism today is more from a profiling standpoint than it is from a "I hate this person because they're black/latino/ect." its a "This person is black/latino/white, ect so I think they're up to no good".

I think EVERYONE has been guilty of this type of profiling at some point.

So do I think this kid got shot because this guy hated black people, no. But if the kid had been a suspicious looking white kid dressed in a golf shirt, I don't think think this happens either.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

Only one person can say for sure and that's the shooter.

Calling people '****ing morons' isn't helping the discussion.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

Not sure why they say this case is made tougher becuase of the stand your ground law. This law has nothing to do with what happend and does not apply to this situation. The killer followed and persue the person. People against the law want to use this case to have the law changed.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

Yeah, I can't even see how [URL="http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html"]it[/URL] applies in this case even in the most elastic of definitions.

He (the shooter) wasn't threatened, wasn't in his home or car.

It just adds fuel to the weak argument of anti-gun panty-wetters, which is what annoys me the most about the case.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

I think the problem the police are probably having is they don't have a witness to how the initial altercation started. All they have is the shooter saying he was attacked and a witness that saw the kid beating on the shooter.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

Police Chief for Stanford has stepped down. Jumped before he was pushed.

They should have at least taken the shooter in for a chat.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=RedskinRat;902977]Yeah, I can't even see how [URL="http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html"]it[/URL] applies in this case even in the most elastic of definitions.

He (the shooter) wasn't threatened, wasn't in his home or car.

It just adds fuel to the weak argument of anti-gun panty-wetters, which is what annoys me the most about the case.[/quote]

On the same page you cry about people calling you a moron and then sling insults. Hypocrisy is fun!

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=RedskinRat;902963]Sorry, didn't know you were there, hippie.....[/quote]


I wasn't aware I had to be at the scene to evaluate and determine what happened from the facts on record...I suppose I should make my way to Darfur too before I should condemn the Janjaweeds.


Try exercising your brain once in a while... at the very least it will make feel smarter.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=RedskinRat;902971]Only one person can say for sure and that's the shooter.

Calling people '****ing morons' isn't helping the discussion.[/quote]

Yet you have the fcking nerve to call the kid a "mouthy teenager." Get the fck out here dude with your bullshit. You have zero credibility.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=firstdown;903016]I think the problem the police are probably having is they don't have a witness to how the initial altercation started. All they have is the shooter saying he was attacked and a witness that saw the kid beating on the shooter.[/quote]

Where are you getting your facts from? The facts reported from all media outlets is as follows:

[quote]A witness to the physical altercation just prior to the shooting stated that Martin was on top of Zimmerman and beating him up, while the older man yelled for help.[27] Another witness, Mary Cutcher, has said in a TV interview that "there was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling",[28] but police say that she gave an official account to them that agreed with Zimmerman's story.[29][30] [B]Cutcher and her roommate told CNN journalist Anderson Cooper that their own account of the incident to the police did not agree with Zimmerman's, and that they had demanded that the police retract that incorrect statement.[/B] They also said, about the police's attitude at the scene, that [B]"they were siding with him [Zimmerman] from the start"[/B] and that they heard the pair in their backyard and a [B]"very young voice" whining, with no sounds of a fight. They heard a gunshot; the crying stopped immediately[/B], and they saw Zimmerman on his knees pinning Martin down on the ground.[31]

[B]The police took Trayvon Martin's body and stored it in a morgue for three days, calling him "John Doe"[/B]. Martin's family accuses the[B] police of not asking any of the neighbours if they recognized Martin.[/B][32] According to David Horsey, [B]they also did not check his cellphone to find someone he knew.[/B][33][/quote]


Regardless of what exactly happened it doesn't change the fact that you have this cunt following a young boy after being ordered not to and then shot him. On top of that you have an indifferent police that didn't absolutely nothing and is still doing absolutely nothing.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=Daseal;903046]On the same page you cry about people calling you a moron and then sling insults. Hypocrisy is fun![/quote]

Where do I insult anyone here? Where am I crying?

Daseal, please feel free to ignore any of my responses unless you can stay on point and contribute.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=saden1;903058]I wasn't aware I had to be at the scene to evaluate and determine what happened from the facts on record...I suppose I should make my way to Darfur too before I should condemn the Janjaweeds.[/quote]

You sound [B]WAAAAY[/B] to personally invested to make a reasoned argument based on how you're posting. Calm down.

[quote=saden1;903058]Try exercising your brain once in a while... at the very least it will make feel smarter.[/quote]

Adjust your head-pointer, the sweat is making you miss words.

How smart would I need to be to post on this forum? They allow you to post so I'm happy I can exceed whatever entrance exam you've passed.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=saden1;903062]Yet you have the fcking nerve to call the kid a "mouthy teenager." Get the fck out here dude with your bullshit. You have zero credibility.[/quote]

Line up 1,000 teenagers and I'll point out the 999 that are mouthy. Maybe I'm just inundated with mouthy teenagers where I live but I can only go by my experience.

And cursing someone out on a forum certainly lends an air of credibility....

/sarc

Your hostility is adorable.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

redskinrat its this law
Sanford police have claimed that they could not charge Zimmerman with shooting and killing the child because Zimmerman claimed self-defense under Florida’s Stand Your Ground law.
Out on the street before you can use deadly force, most jurisdictions require that you first try to retreat. See if you can get away safely before you take out the gun and blow somebody away. But Florida’s law is different. Florida has a law, along with 17 states, that says you can stand your ground. Which means you don’t have that obligation to try to run first. So, in Florida, as long as you have a reasonable belief that your life and safety is in danger, you can use force to defend yourself, even deadly force. And now that’s the situation they’re suggesting.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

thought this was interesting....

Host Gayle King brought up an interesting wrinkle in the story. While it has been widely speculated that Martin’s death was racially-motivated on some level, King noted that Zimmerman’s family have shared that he is himself a Spanish-speaking minority with black family members of his own.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=RedskinRat;903078]You sound [B]WAAAAY[/B] to personally invested to make a reasoned argument based on how you're posting. Calm down.[/quote]


I am personally invested because if it can happen to Trayvon it could happen to my on son. Why shouldn't anyone else for that matter be invested? Or maybe the thinking is "just another nigger in the wrong place at the wrong time...right?"


[quote=RedskinRat;903078]Adjust your head-pointer, the sweat is making you miss words.

[B]How smart would I need to be to post on this forum?[/B] They allow you to post so I'm happy I can exceed whatever entrance exam you've passed.[/quote]


Apparently not very smart but this has been the case for a while. It just so happens that it's becoming more and more blatant nowadays. You would think this case wouldn't require much brain power to analyze the fail points in this case.

Hearing you lot you would think Trayvon murdered himself. It's disgusting.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=dmek25;903084]thought this was interesting....

Host Gayle King brought up an interesting wrinkle in the story. While it has been widely speculated that Martin’s death was racially-motivated on some level, King noted that Zimmerman’s family have shared that he is himself a Spanish-speaking minority with black family members of his own.[/quote]

There are two reasons why race played a role.

1. Zimmerman spotted the black teen and assuming he didn't belong in the predominately white neighborhood.
2. Police action after the murder of Trayvon.


And so what if the killer's father claims he is Hispanic and has some black sister in-law? At the end of the day he isn't black and he profiled the kid. I mean, how many fcking white kids did he follow around prior to Trayvon huh? What happened is complete bullshit, from the murder to police action after the murder.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=dmek25;903084]thought this was interesting....

Host Gayle King brought up an interesting wrinkle in the story. While it has been widely speculated that Martin’s death was racially-motivated on some level, King noted that Zimmerman’s family have shared that he is himself a Spanish-speaking minority with black family members of his own.[/quote]

What if he hates those family members too? I don't think he is "join the KKK-racist" but what if he dislikes black people, and that fed into his belief that Trayvon was up to no good and therefore deserved to be followed?

Look at it this way, I'm white, my family is white, does that mean I love white people? Absolutely not. In fact, I dislike a large portion of white people that have grown up in better circumstances than myself, mainly for their pampered upbringing that coincides with their lazy lifestyle. Do I dislike them enough to go into their upper class neighborhoods packing and looking for trouble? No. But my entire point is this: Just because Zimmerman himself is spanish and has african-american family members does not mean he himself does not have some sort of prejudice towards other african-americans.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

"see a black man coolin' with a mexican
we can all have peace on the sets again"

*edit
2 high fives to anyone who can identify that quote/song without research

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=saden1;903088]There are two reasons why race played a role.

1. Zimmerman spotted the black teen and assuming he didn't belong in the predominately weight neighborhood.
2. Police action after the murder of Trayvon.


And so what if the killer's father claims he is Hispanic and has some black sister in-law? At the end of the day he isn't black and he profiled the kid. I mean, how many fcking white kids did he follow around prior to Trayvon huh? What happened is complete bullshit, from the murder to police action after the murder.[/quote]

A predominately weight neighborhood? Like a community for obese people? :cheeky-sm

JK but I agree with your points. It definitely sounds like police negligence played a role in this too, if the background story posted in this thread is correct.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=dmek25;903080]redskinrat its this law
Sanford police have claimed that they could not charge Zimmerman with shooting and killing the child because Zimmerman claimed self-defense under Florida’s Stand Your Ground law.
Out on the street before you can use deadly force, most jurisdictions require that you first try to retreat. See if you can get away safely before you take out the gun and blow somebody away. But Florida’s law is different. Florida has a law, along with 17 states, that says you can stand your ground. Which means you don’t have that obligation to try to run first. So, in Florida, as long as you have a reasonable belief that your life and safety is in danger, you can use force to defend yourself, even deadly force. And now that’s the situation they’re suggesting.[/quote]

[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=-1] [I]§ 776.013(4), Fla. Stat. [/I][I][B] [/B][/I]
[B]A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter another’s [dwelling] [residence] [occupied vehicle] is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.[/B]
[B] [/B][I]Definitions. Give if applicable. § 776.013(5), Fla. Stat. [/I][I][B] [/B][/I][I][/I]
[B]As used with regard to self defense:[/B]
[B] [/B]
[B]“Dwelling” means a building or conveyance of any kind, including any attached porch, whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent or mobile or immobile, which has a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed to be occupied by people lodging therein at night.[/B]

[B]“Residence” means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting as an invited guest.[/B]

[B]“Vehicle” means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, which is designed to transport people or property[/B].

[I]Prior threats. Give if applicable.[/I]
[B]If you find that the defendant who because of threats or prior difficulties with [/B](victim) [B]had reasonable grounds to believe that [he] [she] was in danger of death or great bodily harm at the hands of [/B](victim), [B]then the defendant had the right to arm [himself] [herself]. However, the defendant cannot justify the use of deadly force, if after arming [himself] [herself] [he] [she] renewed [his] [her] difficulty with [/B](victim) [B]when [he] [she] could have avoided the difficulty, although as previously explained if the defendant was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in any place where [he] [she] had a right to be, [he] [she] had no duty to retreat.[/B]

[I]Reputation of victim. Give if applicable.[/I]
[B]If you find that[/B] (victim) [B]had a reputation of being a violent and dangerous person and that [his] [her] reputation was known to the defendant, you may consider this fact in determining whether the actions of the defendant were those of a reasonable person in dealing with an individual of that reputation.[/B]

[I]Physical abilities. Read in all cases.[/I]
[B]In considering the issue of self-defense, you may take into account the relative physical abilities and capacities of the defendant and [/B](victim).
[I]Read in all cases.[/I]
[B]If in your consideration of the issue of self-defense you have a reasonable doubt on the question of whether the defendant was justified in the use of deadly force, you should find the defendant not guilty.[/B]

[B]However, if from the evidence you are convinced that the defendant was not justified in the use of deadly force, you should find [him] [her] guilty if all the elements of the charge have been proved.[/B]

That's from the link I posted at 03-23-2012 07:29 AM

Based on that transcript I find it hard to believe that the cops just wandered off.




[/SIZE][/FONT]

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=saden1;903086]Hearing you lot you would think Trayvon murdered himself. It's disgusting.[/quote]

You [I][B]lot[/B][/I]? I don't think you're reading the responses clearly.

If anything most if not all posters are siding with the victim.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=RedskinRat;903107]You [I][B]lot[/B][/I]? I don't think you're reading the responses clearly.

If anything most if not all posters are siding with the victim.[/quote]

It doesn't sound like it. But then again all I have to go by is statments like:

[quote]Over zealous curtain-twitcher meets mouthy teenager.[/quote]

[quote]I think Zimmerman caused the problem but I don't think the other guy is the innocent little boy thay mak him out to be.[/quote]


To hear shit like the above is very troubling...and people pretending this has nothing to do with race and ignoring police conduct is even more troubling. The truth is self-evident and race is written all over this case whether you want to see it or not.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=mooby;903094]
Look at it this way, I'm white, my family is white, does that mean I love white people? Absolutely not. In fact, I dislike a large portion of white people that have grown up in better circumstances than myself, mainly for their pampered upbringing that coincides with their lazy lifestyle. Do I dislike them enough to go into their upper class neighborhoods packing and looking for trouble? No. But my entire point is this: Just because Zimmerman himself is spanish and has african-american family members does not mean he himself does not have some sort of prejudice towards other african-americans.[/quote]

Interesting point. I dislike most people, don't care what shade. Every group seems to have some sort of chip or undeserved sense of worth. Most of my (Korean) wife's relatives are very rich, well-educated (to the point of being a ****ing sport) and love to lord over each other, my sister-in-law's family live in a very affluent part of Ventura County and don't understand why, if at 15, their friends are getting BMW's that they can't get themselves a 3 Series (but not too entry level).

Then there are my friends that live in South Central, East LA or High Desert and hate anyone who's better off that them (which is just about everyone) except me cos I'm an immigrant like them. Yeah, I know you're shocked I have any friends....

Point being this case can't be viewed as purely racially motivated. I think he'd have gone after a white/yellow/green kid, he doesn't like yoof.