Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/06/29/t-o-should-be-a-first-ballot-hall-of-famer-but/]T.O. should be a first-ballot Hall of Famer, but . . . . | ProFootballTalk[/url]

I think he should be without a doubt, his numbers are undeniable, what do you think?

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

There are a lot of really really good receivers who arguably should be but aren't. But TO is one of the best WRs to ever play the game.

No doubt he should be in the Hall of Fame, but first ballot is another thing. I think he should be, but I feel voters may make him sweat it out for a bit.

It's too bad, because he practices extremely hard, has been one of the games best receivers for over a decade, and has never had any serious issues with the law. But you can't repeatedly throw your QBs under the bus and not expect that to come back and haunt you.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

YES Not even a Q.. 2nd best WR I've ever seen.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

Yes. He has the #'s.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

He's the one of the few receivers I can think of that almost single handily (or as close to single handily one can be in football) won his team a Super Bowl, and anyone knows that knows me knows thats about the highest compliment I can give a wideout.

Damn right he's a first ballot hall of famer.

Right now T.O is probably the second best receiver of all time. However I think if Fitz can get a QB one day he'll be passed by Larry. Andre Johnson will also probably surpass T.O one day. No one will ever pass Jerry.

Can anyone imagine how celebrated he would be if it wasn't for all the antics and me first attitude? He has an amazing work ethic and unlike many receivers he's willing to go over the middle, never got in trouble with the law either. Which all to often gets overshadowed by fights with teammates, feuds with QB's/coaches, and overall being a bad teammate.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

Yep. I was never high on T.O.'s career because he's been in decline since that 2004 season, but he was a fringe hall of famer anyway based solely on what he did in San Francisco for 8 years. He was a pretty good player after age 30 as well.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

I think T.O. will be a first ballot Hall of Famer for sure. He has the numbers, and he hasn't done anything really crazy for a while. We have pretty short-term memories as a country, so some of the off the field issues have faded to the background.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

I might have spoke to soon on never being in trouble with the law albeit he's still never been in trouble criminally speaking.

[QUOTE]Terrell Owens accused of failing to pay child support

Posted by Michael David Smith on June 29, 2011, 8:21 PM EDT

AP
Terrell Owens has made tens of millions of dollars in his NFL career, but he currently stands accused of withholding money that he owes for the care of one of his children.

The Associated Press reports that the mother of one of Owens’ children says he has refused to pay the full $5,000 a month in child support he owes.

According to the mother, Melanie Paige Smith, Owens’ financial advisers told her Owens decided to no longer pay the full amount. Owens’ agent, Drew Rosenhaus, did not return messages seeking comment from the Associated Press.

There have been conflicting media reports about how many children Owens has. Owens said in an interview last year that he has a three-year-old son whom he’s never met because of hard feelings between himself and the boy’s mother. It is not clear whether that mother is the mother seeking child support in this case.

Permalink 24 Comments Latest Stories in: Rumor Mill, Sprint Football Live - Rumors, Top Stories[/QUOTE]

Seems like a tactic to force the mother to let him meet his kid.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;808934]There are a lot of really really good receivers who arguably should be but aren't. But TO is one of the best WRs to ever play the game.

No doubt he should be in the Hall of Fame, but first ballot is another thing. I think he should be, but I feel voters may make him sweat it out for a bit.

[B]It's too bad, because he practices extremely hard, has been one of the games best receivers for over a decade, and has never had any serious issues with the law. But you can't repeatedly throw your QBs under the bus and not expect that to come back and haunt you[/B].[/quote]

Yeah, he's a been a cancer to his quarterbacks for sure, but his numbers are undeniable. Stats-wise he's probably a top 3 receiver all time. He works his tail off and has never had any off the field transgressions legally. I've never liked TO, but in my mind he's without question a first-ballot HOF'er.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

OH......the humanity of it all..........

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=GMScud;808946]Yeah, he's a been a cancer to his quarterbacks for sure, but his numbers are undeniable. Stats-wise he's probably a top 3 receiver all time. He works his tail off and has never had any off the field transgressions legally. I've never liked TO, but in my mind he's without question a first-ballot HOF'er.[/quote]

Just to reiterate, I think he should be. I just wouldn't be surprised if he isn't. I think it's a shame when he gets lumped in with the "lawless thugs" when really his issues are far different

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;808948]Just to reiterate, I think he should be. I just wouldn't be surprised if he isn't. I think it's a shame when he gets lumped in with the "lawless thugs" when really his issues are far different[/quote]

TO learned his egotistical ways from none other than Jerry Rice (trust me, he did) and went further and became a pest to all his QB's. As for a Lawless thug, he has always had a good heart outside the field and has helped many people in many ways. Hard to figure him out.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;808951]TO learned his egotistical ways from none other than Jerry Rice (trust me, he did) and went further and became a pest to all his QB's. As for a Lawless thug, he has always had a good heart outside the field and has helped many people in many ways. Hard to figure him out.[/quote]

Yeah, I know all about Rice's egotistical ways. But like TO, aside from the "prostitution" incident, never any real off-field issues.

Here's a question for you guys (not to take this thread too far off topic). If you had to choose one-who goes in 1st ballot. TO or Marvin Harrison?

Let's say TO's career is over: Here are his numbers-15 years; 1,078 receptions; 15,934 yards; 156 TDs

Harrison-13 years; 1,102 receptions; 14,580 yards; 128 TDs

One a complete loner who often wouldn't even go into team huddles, the other invites the young WRs on the team to live and train with him in the off-season. One of them has thrown almost all his QBs under the bus, the other played with one of the best of all time. One of them has never had a serious issue with the law, the other....curiously involved in a fatal shooting.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

While T.O had his share of quality QB's he still never had someone like Peyton throwing to him yet he was still able to put up more yards. I also want to avoid whoever has the higher number wins but the gap in TD catches is pretty far apart even taking into account the fact that T.O has two years on Marvin.

Plus T.O never shot a gun at another person :D

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;808955]

Here's a question for you guys (not to take this thread too far off topic). If you had to choose one-who goes in 1st ballot. TO or Marvin Harrison?

Let's say TO's career is over: Here are his numbers-15 years; 1,078 receptions; 15,934 yards; 156 TDs

Harrison-13 years; 1,102 receptions; 14,580 yards; 128 TDs

One a complete loner who often wouldn't even go into team huddles, the other invites the young WRs on the team to live and train with him in the off-season. One of them has thrown almost all his QBs under the bus, the other played with one of the best of all time. One of them has never had a serious issue with the law, the other....curiously involved in a fatal shooting.[/quote]

Tough, tough choice, Harrison always reminded me of Monk and I always liked him until the shooting incident, which shocked the hell out of me. Coin flip!!

[QUOTE=Dirtbag59;808956]While T.O had his share of quality QB's he still never had someone like Peyton throwing to him yet he was still able to put up more yards. I also want to avoid whoever has the higher number wins but the gap in TD catches is pretty far apart even taking into account the fact that T.O has two years on Marvin.

Plus T.O never shot a gun at another person :D[/QUOTE]

But I bet some people would think harrison over TO. They get so caught up with the player based on what is defined as a good player for their team, rather than looking at them as a person outside the scope of football and stats. When these types of considerations are a part of the public's selection criteria, stats tend to get left on the back burner. Sure TO can be a punk at work but he hasn't been caught up in major criminal investigations. If we are going to start analyzing players beyond in the field numbers, and them as people, let's start with not being involved in shootings.

You could say a part of Monk's delay getting in also had to do with his personality or lack theirof. When it came to game and postgame, he wasn't compelling. Not what the public wanted from a player, so the stats got lost in he equation. Him and TO might have the same results getting into the HOF just due to being on the extremes of the expected personality spectrum.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

Yes!!

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=hooskins;808958]But I bet some people would think harrison over TO. They get so caught up with the player based on what is defined as a good player for their team, rather than looking at them as a person outside the scope of football and stats. When these types of considerations are a part of the public's selection criteria, stats tend to get left on the back burner. Sure TO can be a punk at work but he hasn't been caught up in major criminal investigations. If we are going to start analyzing players beyond in the field numbers, and them as people, let's start with not being involved in shootings.

[B]You could say a part of Monk's delay getting in also had to do with his personality or lack theirof. When it came to game and postgame, he wasn't compelling. Not what the public wanted from a player, so the stats got lost in he equation. Him and TO might have the same results getting into the HOF just due to being on the extremes of the expected personality spectrum.[/B][/quote]

I wholeheartedly agree with you. Personally I think TO is a first ballot HOF, but the HOF voters will make him wait a year.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

Yeah, they say off-field stuff doesn't matter. And it seemingly doesn't when it's truly off-field. Hence why it didn't take any time to consider guys like Lawrence Taylor and Michael Irvin.

But, your locker room/post game personality I'm certain is a factor for many voters. Even if they deny it

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

Harrison was better more recently. T.O. had the better career overall.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

And boy, Monk got in just in time. If he hadn't been elected when he was (and Andre Reed went in instead), Monk would have likely never gotten in.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

I think so, but he may not get it

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

NO!
I can't believe that everyone thinks TO is a hall of famer. If the guy was that good why did 3 teams get rid of him in his prime?

I know, he's got the #s & on the field was great - at times. But to paraphrase Herm Edwards, if the point is to win the game, TO did almost as much to bring his teams down as he did to win games. Should that behavior be discounted just because he made a lot of plays? No, he ultimately was not a winner. Every time his team got close to winning big, he divided the team. His super bowl game exemplifies this; he had a great game, then throws his qb under the bus. The damage was too much to repair in the next season.

Job Performance = your behavior in any manner associated w/your employer & fellow employees.
TO's job performance was great at times, horrendos at others. Don't mistake my point for "off field" issues, different subject altogether. When you talk about your teamates & throw tantrums on the sideline, that is part of what your evaluated on as an employee. TO never carried himself like a hall of famer & will likely end his career like Allen Iverson, w/nobody wanting him.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;808955]Yeah, I know all about Rice's egotistical ways. But like TO, aside from the "prostitution" incident, never any real off-field issues.

Here's a question for you guys (not to take this thread too far off topic). If you had to choose one-who goes in 1st ballot. TO or Marvin Harrison?

Let's say TO's career is over: Here are his numbers-15 years; 1,078 receptions; 15,934 yards; 156 TDs

Harrison-13 years; 1,102 receptions; 14,580 yards; 128 TDs

One a complete loner who often wouldn't even go into team huddles, the other invites the young WRs on the team to live and train with him in the off-season. One of them has thrown almost all his QBs under the bus, the other played with one of the best of all time. One of them has never had a serious issue with the law, the other....curiously involved in a fatal shooting.[/quote]

Harrison by far, he was consistently good & never kept his team from winning like TO did.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

TO definitely has the numbers to get into the Hall, but they should make him wait just for being a asshat his whole career. It would be icing on the cake. I'm just happy has hell that he'll never get a Super Bowl ring...lol YES!!!

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=Mattyk;808933][url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/06/29/t-o-should-be-a-first-ballot-hall-of-famer-but/]T.O. should be a first-ballot Hall of Famer, but . . . . | ProFootballTalk[/url]

I think he should be without a doubt, his numbers are undeniable, what do you think?[/quote]

Was Art Monk a first ballot guy? While he should have been, sadly, the answer is no.

More than the numbers play into the HOF voting. If I was picking a team of rookies with a crystal ball, I certainly would take Art Monk way head of T.O.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=Leader In Sports;808975]Was Art Monk a first ballot guy? While he should have been, sadly, the answer is no.

More than the numbers play into the HOF voting. If I was picking a team of rookies with a crystal ball, I certainly would take Art Monk way head of T.O.[/quote]

Yes! More than the #s should play into it, it should be about how you contributed to your team & to the game. From that standpoint, TO is definitely no hall of famer.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=freddyg12;808972]NO!
I can't believe that everyone thinks TO is a hall of famer. If the guy was that good why did 3 teams get rid of him in his prime?

I know, he's got the #s & on the field was great - at times. But to paraphrase Herm Edwards, if the point is to win the game, [B]TO did almost[/B] [B]as much to bring his teams down[/B] as he did to win games. Should that behavior be discounted just because he made a lot of plays? No, he ultimately was not a winner. Every time his team got close to winning big, he divided the team. His super bowl game exemplifies this; he had a great game, then throws his qb under the bus. The damage was too much to repair in the next season.

Job Performance = your behavior in any manner associated w/your employer & fellow employees.
TO's job performance was great at times, horrendos at others. Don't mistake my point for "off field" issues, different subject altogether. When you talk about your teamates & throw tantrums on the sideline, that is part of what your evaluated on as an employee. TO never carried himself like a hall of famer & will likely end his career like Allen Iverson, w/nobody wanting him.[/quote]
the super bowl the eagles played in? TO was a major reason they made it. havent been back since he left. i think your statement is very inaccurate

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

and how does one "carry" ones self like a hall of famer? like LT? this shouldnt matter at all. hell, a murderer is in the hall

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=dmek25;808977]the super bowl the eagles played in? [B]TO was a major reason they made it. havent been back since he left.[/B] i think your statement is very inaccurate[/quote]

I think yours is debatable at best. Did TO help them get there - yes. But TO was hurt all through the playoffs & they won w/out him. So that has to be considered.

The 2nd point - "haven't been back since he left" actually reinforces my point. If TO could've kept his mouth shut & been a good teammate, that team might've been able to come back strong the next year. What happened after that was him tearing the team apart to the point that Philly got rid of him while he was still in his prime.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=dmek25;808978]and how does one "carry" ones self like a hall of famer? like LT? this shouldnt matter at all. hell, a murderer is in the hall[/quote]

Maybe I should restate that more simply; he never carried himself like a professional! One carries himself like a professional by doing their job, taking responsibility for their actions & considering the orgranization they work for & its goals.

Sure, there are plenty of guys that were likely less than stellar teammates that made the hall, but most of them kept their opinions & team biz out of the media.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

Yes, the numbers don't lie.

We've had some questionable characters get into the HOF, so that's not the issue. On the field, he was a beast. Teams (including us) game-planned around him and the only man I ever saw stop him in his prime was Sean Taylor. Owens actually looked intimidated against him, cutting routes short, not stretching to make catches...for good reason.

Even at age 37, he's still a physical specimen and I think he'll be back sooner or later. He's not the player he once was, but he had matured and can still help a team. I actually would not mind seeing him here IF we needed a vet WR but we don't, our WR depth chart looks promising.

He always played for teams I hated and at times, I could not stand him as a person, but I have grown to respect him as time has gone on, as a player and in recent years as a person. He never got into real trouble (legally), he was just a nuisance and joker.

If Michael Irvin got in, Owens should.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=dmek25;808978]and how does one "carry" ones self like a hall of famer? like LT? this shouldnt matter at all. hell, a murderer is in the hall[/quote]

And
[IMG]http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQxTNbh7AVfDMBlBQP22AGdtZIH0JmB-mdxniXCSTmka5NujCfb&t=1[/IMG]

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=Monkeydad;808982]Yes, the numbers don't lie.

We've had some questionable characters get into the HOF, so that's not the issue. On the field, he was a beast. Teams (including us) game-planned around him and the only man I ever saw stop him in his prime was Sean Taylor. Owens actually looked intimidated against him, cutting routes short, not stretching to make catches...for good reason.

Even at age 37, he's still a physical specimen and I think he'll be back sooner or later. He's not the player he once was, but he had matured and can still help a team. I actually would not mind seeing him here IF we needed a vet WR but we don't, our WR depth chart looks promising.

He always played for teams I hated and at times, I could not stand him as a person, but I have grown to respect him as time has gone on, as a player and in recent years as a person. He never got into real trouble (legally), he was just a nuisance and joker.

[B]If Michael Irvin got in, Owens should[/B].[/quote]

Again, I don't think the comparison is valid. Let's distinguish between [I]off the field[/I] or what I would call personal issues, versus behavior that is related to job performance. I'm not even considering personal behavior in this debate, I think the hall has in recent past not considered that too much. Just in terms of performance related to your teams goals, Irvin was so much greater than TO.

Michael Irvin was a winner. Although he could be a pain for his qb & OC, it was never to the point that dallas wanted to get rid of him. In the end, teams couldn't count on TO. Skip Bayless called it best - TO = "TEam obliterator."

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=Monkeydad;808983]And
[IMG]http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQxTNbh7AVfDMBlBQP22AGdtZIH0JmB-mdxniXCSTmka5NujCfb&t=1[/IMG][/quote]

smilin in his mug shot, great media presence!

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=freddyg12;808979]I think yours is debatable at best. Did TO help them get there - yes. But TO was hurt all through the playoffs & they won w/out him. So that has to be considered.

The 2nd point - "haven't been back since he left" actually reinforces my point. If TO could've kept his mouth shut & been a good teammate, that team might've been able to come back strong the next year. What happened after that was him tearing the team apart to the point that Philly got rid of him while he was still in his prime.[/quote]

While TO is guilty of everything he has done, that doesn't cancel out his numbers and his work ethic. Listening to the Football Today podcast, they mentioned for example that TO never gave up on the field like Randy Moss did towards the end of his time in Minny and the whole time he was with the Raiders.

I still think that the Eagles in 2004 went too much out of their way (including McNabb) to say that they would be fine without TO when he got hurt. I think things would have been much different if TO had played throughout the playoffs. They were just dominant with TO in the lineup. Sure, TO shouldn't have reacted the way he did, but he made a huge impact on that team.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=freddyg12;808992]Again, I don't think the comparison is valid. Let's distinguish between [I]off the field[/I] or what I would call personal issues, versus behavior that is related to job performance. I'm not even considering personal behavior in this debate, I think the hall has in recent past not considered that too much. Just in terms of performance related to your teams goals, Irvin was so much greater than TO.

Michael Irvin was a winner. Although he could be a pain for his qb & OC, it was never to the point that dallas wanted to get rid of him. In the end, teams couldn't count on TO. Skip Bayless called it best - TO = "TEam obliterator."[/quote]

Winning games and Super Bowls cure everything. I'm sure if Irvin was on a losing team, we would have heard some issues. I see what you say about TO, but his performance on the field is HOF worthy. They don't let players into the HOF just because they were "nice guys".

The funny thing is that you have a guy like Art Monk, who had the numbers, but probably wasn't voted into the HOF because he didn't talk to the media.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=Ruhskins;808994]While TO is guilty of everything he has done, [B]that doesn't cancel out his numbers and his work ethic[/B]. Listening to the Football Today podcast, they mentioned for example that TO never gave up on the field like Randy Moss did towards the end of his time in Minny and the whole time he was with the Raiders.

I still think that the Eagles in 2004 went too much out of their way (including McNabb) to say that they would be fine without TO when he got hurt. I think things would have been much different if TO had played throughout the playoffs. They were just dominant with TO in the lineup. Sure, TO shouldn't have reacted the way he did, but he made a huge impact on that team.[/quote]

Actually it did, [B]3 teams[/B] thought so! I won't even count Buffalo, as he was old when he left there. I'll give TO credit for what he's done & I think he should be considered for the hall, but when you analyze his career, he did as much damage to his teams as he did good. Isn't the point of the game to help the team win? By that standard, TO did negate his on-field performance because his employers decided that letting him go was 'addition by subtraction.'

If you want to say the hall is ONLY about career stats, then by that standard, yes, he's got the #s. I would hate it if the hall simply became only about that.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

In the HoF? Because of his numbers, for sure.

First ballot? Because of his antics, which included ripping apart the 2005 Eagles, no.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=Ruhskins;808995]Winning games and Super Bowls cure everything. I'm sure if Irvin was on a losing team, we would have heard some issues. I see what you say about TO, but his performance on the field is HOF worthy. [B]They don't let players into the HOF just because they were "nice guys".[/B]

The funny thing is that you have a guy like Art Monk, who had the numbers, but probably wasn't voted into the HOF because he didn't talk to the media.[/quote]

Who said anything about being a "nice guy" or model citizen? Not arguing that, in fact based on previous hall inductees there are guys in that may have been bad citizens, but in terms of the game they were winners.

My point is that his behavior was detrimental to his teams success. He created divisions that were irreparable.

While we're talking about his on-field performance, TO wasn't flawless either - in Dallas a couple years he compounded his big mouth by dropping a no. of easy passes.