When it's all been said and done.
 

Will Tom Brady be the greatest QB of all time? I know This is a Skins site but I have been a big Brady fan ever since he started playing in N.E. Obviously the QB question will always come up but just look at Tom's resume as of today. I'm just talking career acheivements and stats.

3 Time SB champion ( 2 SB MVPs)
2 League MVPs
Fastest To 100 wins
Career record of 100-31.
Record for passing TDs in a season (50)
Fantasic TD/INT ratio
94 career QB rating
21 wins in a row ( all time record )

I know how great manning is but when u look at the playoffs Bradys record is much better than peytons. And who knows how many more championships either QB will win.. IMO Brady will go down as top 2-3 of all time when he retires..

What do u guys think?
And no I'm not a Bandwagon Brady fan, I just admire great QB play and he is ridiculously good.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

I would definitely say that Brady is the top QB, with Manning a close second. Right now, I would say that Manning and the Colts are on the decline, while Brady and the Pats seem to be hitting a resurgence. Although I must say that Darth Hoody is doing wonders with that defense of theirs (who gave up 30+ points Buffalo) and virtually no running game.

Outside of the SB/Playoff records (clearly in favor of Brady), I think Brady and Manning have each had to carry their team through deficiencies (with Brady it was a lack of a true weapon at WR, including one year where he was throwing it to TEs and still made the playoffs; and Manning never having a decent defense); but they have also had big pluses helping them along the way (Manning = top WR group; Brady = great defense/now a good WR group).

I do think that Brady is more of a clutch QB; if you need a TD drive late in the 4th quarter, you want Manning behind center.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

I hate the term "best ever". None of us ever saw Sammy Baugh play, some saw Johnny Unitas, Bart Starr, YA Tittle, etc. unfortunately everything revolves around stats. Game has evolved and changed.

Maybe best of his generation i would say.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

Brady's pretty good, but this game was essentially his career in a nutshell. He plays in a spread offense, converts his opportunities into first downs, throws for 150 yards and the Patriots win by 25.

Even though this was a throwback win, these aren't your older brother's Patriots. The current version wins 10 games/year because of Brady, not 13 independent of him.

I think the NFL will remember Brady as the first NFL quarterback to adopt the spread as a full time offensive style. Like his scheme successors (Orton, Rodgers), I think the offense really helped make a superstar out of an already very efficient player.

Ultimately, he's one of the best the game has ever seen. Frankly speaking, a lot of those guys play in this current generation. One of the three or four greatest quarterbacks in the best quarterback era in NFL history? Yeah, I'd say that's a hall of famer.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

You have to define greatest -- if it is terms of winning, then it's Brady. If it's in terms of being a quarterback, I think the edge goes to either Manning or Marino. Last year, with the number 32 run game, Peyton took the Colts to the SB while posting another season of off-the-chart numbers.
I think that last season solidified why Manning is better than Brady just in terms of great quarterback play.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

[quote=Ruhskins;743386]I would definitely say that Brady is the top QB, with Manning a close second. [B] Right now, I would say that Manning and the Colts are on the decline[/B], while Brady and the Pats seem to be hitting a resurgence. Although I must say that Darth Hoody is doing wonders with that defense of theirs (who gave up 30+ points Buffalo) and virtually no running game.

[/quote]

The Colts are having some issues, but I'd hardly say Manning is on the decline. The guy is tearing it up this year. In 4 games this year he's got 1,365 yards (341/gm), with 11tds and only 1 pick, and a rating of 112.2. That's not decline, that's MVP-caliber. He's pacing for over 5,000 yards and 40+ TDs. Those are monster numbers.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

Brady and Manning have lots of football left and it's pretty clear both will be in the conversation as two of the all time greatest quarterback when they are finished.

For me Tom Brady is the greatest quarterback I have ever seen.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

Ruh, how are Manning and the Colts on the decline? They went to the superbowl last year and Manning is putting up monster numbers with no running game and WRs named Pierre Garcon and Austin Collie

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

I think every generation has a couple QB's who are "Best Ever" material but that, as someone else said, you can never really have a true "Best Ever" given the inability to compare between generations. The game evolves and changes so much that comparisons are just really hard to make.


Is Brady better than Montana? Each were groundbreaking QB's - talented in and of themselves but matched with a coach/system that really emphasized there abilities.

Where does Farve fit into this conversation?

What about Elway? Two SB's, tons of records and arguably the best clutch QB ever (does anyone have more 4th Q winning drives than him?)

What about Marino? No championships, but arguably the greatest pure passer ever to play.

Then of course, there's the old school:

Bart Starr - a guy who wasn't statistically great but, in the word's of Lombardi "just beat you".

Johnny U. - the Peyton of his day (and sporting the uber cool high-tops and crew cut).

Otto Graham? How many championships did he win?

Anyone ever heard of Norm Van Brocklin, Y.A. Title?

And that's not really mentioning the QB's of the 30's & 40's. Okay, I'll mention a couple:

Sammy Baugh - duh.

Sid Luckman - Actually, I think this guy has a real strong claim to "Best Ever". Speaking of innovative systems, he was the [I]first ever[/I] T-formation QB (the first real "QB" as we know the position). He had a 8.4 yards per pass attempt average. (Only Otto Graham at 9.0 is better) and an amazing 7.9 TD/per pass attempt percentage (In the modern era, the best are Peyton, Rivers and Romo at 5.6%). Four NFL Championships. Was a league MVP.

In my opinion, there are about 10 QB's who can be discussed in the "Greatest Ever" discussion and I have been fortunate to watch six of them (Peyton, Brady, Farve, Montana, Elway, Marino).

It's a great discussion but, in my opinion, one with no definitive answer.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

I'd say so. True field general.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;743397]I think every generation has a couple QB's who are "Best Ever" material but that, as someone else said, you can never really have a true "Best Ever" given the inability to compare between generations. The game evolves and changes so much that comparisons are just really hard to make.


Is Brady better than Montana? Each were groundbreaking QB's - talented in and of themselves but matched with a coach/system that really emphasized there abilities.

[B]Where does Farve fit into this conversation?[/B]

What about Elway? Two SB's, tons of records and arguably the best clutch QB ever (does anyone have more 4th Q winning drives than him?)

What about Marino? No championships, but arguably the greatest pure passer ever to play.

Then of course, there's the old school:

Bart Starr - a guy who wasn't statistically great but, in the word's of Lombardi "just beat you".

Johnny U. - the Peyton of his day (and sporting the uber cool high-tops and crew cut).

Otto Graham? How many championships did he win?

Anyone ever heard of Norm Van Brocklin, Y.A. Title?

And that's not really mentioning the QB's of the 30's & 40's. Okay, I'll mention a couple:

Sammy Baugh - duh.

Sid Luckman - Actually, I think this guy has a real strong claim to "Best Ever". Speaking of innovative systems, he was the [I]first ever[/I] T-formation QB (the first real "QB" as we know the position). He had a 8.4 yards per pass attempt average. (Only Otto Graham at 9.0 is better) and an amazing 7.9 TD/per pass attempt percentage (In the modern era, the best are Peyton, Rivers and Romo at 5.6%). Four NFL Championships. Was a league MVP.

In my opinion, there are about 10 QB's who can be discussed in the "Greatest Ever" discussion and I have been fortunate to watch six of them (Peyton, Brady, Farve, Montana, Elway, Marino).

It's a great discussion but, in my opinion, one with no definitive answer.[/quote]

I would say no simply cause of his turnovers.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

I think when talking about the old timers that don't have the stats ask yourself could any of them play in today's game? I think most of them could. Could anyone imagine Sonny in today's game? With all the rules favoring the passing game? Sonny would have video game stats. If you put him in New England's 07 offense he might throw 60 td's.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

Brady is certainly in the discussion. I think it's silly to try to name one guy as the best ever though.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

[quote=skinsfan69;743403]I would say no simply cause of his turnovers.[/quote]

So you're going to disregard all of his other stats and accomplishments because of turnovers?

Favre's INT% isn't that crazy. 3.3%.

Here are some others:

Marino: 3.0
Elway: 3.1
P. Manning: 2.7

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

Peyton is still better. He just is

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

How many [B]GREAT GREAT[/B] teams did Brady have to beat in his very own Conference?
I'm talking teams that will be talked about 20 years from now?

1? Colts/Manning
Anymore?

How many teams did Joe Montana have to beat during his tenure in San Fran?
3 time SB winners in Redskins
Legendary Ditka Bears and that Defense and the legendary 85' Bears
Parcells Giants and X2 time SB winners with Simms,LT,Banks,etc.

Give me Joe Montana! :)

Brady is a Great QB
Montana is the greatest QB I ever saw! Period!

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

[quote=Chico23231;743454]Peyton is still better. He just is[/quote]

I would agree.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

Yeah I'd take Peyton over Brady. I've always viewed Brady as a really good system QB. I view Peyton as a really good QB who created his own system. In fact at this point I'd take Brees over Brady. Brees is a less physically talented Manning. He's got all the mental and emotional skills that Manning has but with a little less on the physical side. Obviously the mental and emotional skills are pretty damn important because Brees is pretty awesome.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

Hard to say who's the best, but we are sure lucky to have been able to say we saw Brady and Manning play

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

Great post guys, I always love the "Best QB ever " debates..
I think it's hard to name the greatest but Brady is no doubt up there with the likes of Elway, Marino, Montana , Manning Etc..

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

If we are talking just Brady/Manning - I think that is going to be one debated for a looooongggg time. Would Brady have succeeded in the Colts offense? I am thinking yes. What would Belicheck have done with Manning?

I think Manning is the better QB of the two [I]BUT[/I], if I was starting a team, I think I would take Brady. Certainly the Brady of 2 to 3 years ago.

Manning is such a good QB that, like Marino before him, the offense tends to get modelled around him. It's not that he is a "Me First" guy, it's just that he's so good that he can't help but be the team's focus. Particularly now in the salary cap era, other parts of the team suffer a little. When you play Indi, if you "solve" Peyton, you win. While true to a certain degree and more so recently, "solving" Brady didn't necessarily get you a win (Matt Cassell anyone?). For the last 5 years or so, teams didn't so much play "the Colts" as much as they played Peyton (figuratively speaking of course).

But as Smoot said, we're just lucky to see them both play.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

[quote=Mattyk;743446]So you're going to disregard all of his other stats and accomplishments because of turnovers?

Favre's INT% isn't that crazy. 3.3%.

Here are some others:

Marino: 3.0
Elway: 3.1
P. Manning: 2.7[/quote]

Yeah but he always seems to throw one at the worst possible time, so for that reason I don't put him there with the all time greats.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

Also, something from a more historic perspective, and based on GTripp's comments about Brady as a system QB -

In some respects there seems to be a progression of the "Really Good/Great QB Meets Innovative System" behind the much of the Best Ever debate.

Luckman/T-Formation; Otto Graham/Paul Brown's Innovations; Montana/West Coast Offense; Brady/Spread Offense.

These QB's seem to follow naturally from the former and become innovator's in their own right. Their careers represent the game's evolution in microcosm. In each case, the Coach (Halas, Brown, Walsh, Belichick) was almost as famous as the QB.

On the other hand, there are some QB's who stood outside of any coach or recognziable "system": Baugh, Unitas, Marino, Manning.

Would Luckman, Graham, Montana or Brady be as successful outside their particular system? Would Baugh, Unitas, Marino or Manning be as successful if they were forced to tailor their playing to a particular system (Johnny "Field General" U playing for Paul "I call the plays" Brown? I don't think so).

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

[quote=Mattyk;743446]So you're going to disregard all of his other stats and accomplishments because of turnovers?

Favre's INT% isn't that crazy. 3.3%.

Here are some others:

Marino: 3.0
Elway: 3.1
P. Manning: 2.7[/quote]

Favre is in the top 10 of all time imo, Maybe top 5.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

I'd say his team stole the other teams OF & DF signs and got caught that helps out alot, yes he has great talent but could he have won without stealing signs that's the question I need to have answered.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

I guess I may have exaggerated a bit when saying that the Colts are in a decline (so no need to get your panties in a bunch). But, they are not as dominant as they were before...HOWEVER, I don't think any team is right now. It seems that teams are on and off from week to week, and no team is looking consistently dominant..

I do know that the Colts had offensive line issues in the offseason, and their defense is not playing well. Now, a poor defense has never affected the Colts, and Manning is elite enough to overcome any offensive line deficiencies. I do think the Texans will give the Colts a run for their money though.

It's hard to put Manning above Brady and vice versa though.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

[quote=NYCskinfan82;743532]I'd say his team stole the other teams OF & DF signs and got caught that helps out alot, yes he has great talent but could he have won without stealing signs that's the question I need to have answered.[/quote]

I think the 18-1 season after it was exposed would have put to rest any questions about whether they can win without extra film.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

[quote=rbanerjee23;743389]You have to define greatest -- if it is terms of winning, then it's Brady. If it's in terms of being a quarterback, I think the edge goes to either Manning or Marino. Last year, with the number 32 run game, Peyton took the Colts to the SB while posting another season of off-the-chart numbers.
I think that last season solidified why Manning is better than Brady just in terms of great quarterback play.[/quote]

Marino? I Have so many over top of him just because they could lead their team to the big dance and won. All those stats don't mean shit without a ring when talking QB's.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

Joe Montana - Give me Joe when the game's on the line and the seconds are ticking away on the clock!

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I really think Super Bowls are so overrated when it comes to evaluating QBs. We never hold other positions to that same standard. There are so many factors that go into winning Super Bowls, and QBs get far too much credit for winning them.

Marino was definitely one of the top QBs ever, and as far as pure passers go he might be tops.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

[quote=Mattyk;743551]I really think Super Bowls are so overrated when it comes to evaluating QBs. We never hold other positions to that same standard. There are so many factors that go into winning Super Bowls, and QBs get far too much credit for winning them.

Marino was definitely one of the top QBs ever, and as far as pure passers go he might be tops.[/quote]

Agreed. Barry Sanders is considered one of the top RBs in league history and no one gets on his case about his team never winning a SB, or even getting there at all.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

[quote=Mattyk;743551]I really think Super Bowls are so overrated when it comes to evaluating QBs. We never hold other positions to that same standard. There are so many factors that go into winning Super Bowls, and QBs get far too much credit for winning them.

Marino was definitely one of the top QBs ever, and as far as pure passers go he might be tops.[/quote]It's odd because it's the same coaches and writers who perpetuate the "rings" myth are the ones turning around to tell you that Marino was the best they've every played against/covered.

Which is just a fine observation to make, but why say something meaningless that you're going to contradict at the first alternative example? I just have never understood it.

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[quote=SFREDSKIN;743387]I hate the term "best ever". None of us ever saw Sammy Baugh play, some saw Johnny Unitas, Bart Starr, YA Tittle, etc. unfortunately everything revolves around stats. Game has evolved and changed.

Maybe best of his generation i would say.[/quote]


I agree......Everytime the subject of GOAT is broached referencing any particular player, it's a challenge.

By me being much older than most of the guys that post here, I have several generations to reflect upon. Maybe opinions would vary a little more had the younger people had the opportunity to see Baugh, Starr, Unitas, YA Tittle, John Brodie, along with so many others.

I'm proud of the fact I got to see the last two years of Sammy Baugh, during his reign, people were saying the same thing about him they're saying now about guys like Brady and Manning.

The game has changed so much and stats are deceiving simply because the rules have been changed so much in an attempt to promote offense. I would love to have seen some of these receivers today, and how they would react to being fair game until the ball was in the air, or how these QB's would react when the defense could actually hit them.

It's virtually impossible to lump them all together and come up with a greatest, there would have to be a greatest for each generation, taking into consideration how the game has evolved. There may not be much argument that Brady is one of the best of this generation. All-time, impossible to determine.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

Is Brady good? Yes. Is he the best ever? No.
Would I put Brady in the top 5 QB's today? No.
1) Manning
2) Brees
3) Rodgers
4) Rivers
5) Schaub

Sure, if I add up all these QB's SB rings, Brady still has 1 more than all them put together, but you have to realize, NE's Defense was a major reason why they won super bowls, and Oh yeah, if Vinitari isn't there Tom Brady has 1 super bowl ring. I personally thought that he's overrated, I started to appreciate him more, but he wins because of his defense, and his coaching, playing with a bunch of veterans. Look at them now, without all the vets on defense, there just ok.

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[quote=GTripp0012;743559]It's odd because it's the same coaches and writers who perpetuate the "rings" myth are the ones turning around to tell you that Marino was the best they've every played against/covered.

Which is just a fine observation to make, but why say something meaningless that you're going to contradict at the first alternative example? I just have never understood it.[/quote]

The role of "Winning It All" in defining a QB is really hard. Unlike RB, QB's have a much more direct role in how well a team performs. The only team that I can think of that won a championshiop with an average or below average QB is the Ravens and Dilfer and that was b/c their D that year was an all time/once in a lifetime kinda scary good. Teams have won with career average QB's who had good years (Brad Johnson, Gannon, McMahon), but usually, a QB who is playing well [I]that particular year[/I] - (for whatever reason) - is important.

A QB who [I]consistently[/I] takes average to good teams to the top and comes through in the biggest game of the year should be recognized for having certain intangibles (like I believe Brady does). But, as others have said, the mere fact that a QB doesn't have a ring should not be some knock against them - unless they show a consistent inability to get over the hump (One name that hasn't come up in this discussion is Jim Kelly - how would he be viewed today if the Bills had won those four super bowls? How about if they won only one?)

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Schaub is good but brady is still better

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[quote=JoeRedskin;743397]I think every generation has a couple QB's who are "Best Ever" material but that, as someone else said, you can never really have a true "Best Ever" given the inability to compare between generations. The game evolves and changes so much that comparisons are just really hard to make. [/quote]

Very true. And this spreads to other sports too... Jordan vs. James/Bryant? Crosby/Ovechkin vs. Gretzsky?

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Eh...when it's all said and done, I think I'd take Joe Montana at his best any day.

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Joe Montana is the greatest of all time, hands down. Winner of 4 Super Bowls and three-time Super Bowl MVP. His post-season play in '88 and '89 is the greatest that I've ever seen from a QB. But not for a vicious blind side hit by Giants Leonard Marshall in the '90 NFC Championship, Montana might well have become the only QB to complete a Super Bowl 3-peat.

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Okay. But what if Joe had never played for Bill Walsh? What if, instead of lasting to the 3rd Round and being drafted after the likes of Jack Thompson or Steve Fuller, he went to Kansas City or Cincinnati? Would he have still won those SB's?

Great QB's are a mix of skill and opportunity. Quite frankly, w/out Bill Walsh, I think Montana is a great QB who probably would not have been as good as he was with Walsh.