Offensive Lines in the Playoffs
 

Since we've been talking about the Jets offensive line, I was curious to see how the playoff teams built their lines. And I wanted to point out three out of the four offensive lines.

Minnesota Vikings
LT Bryant McKinnie – 1st rd pick in 2002 (Pro Bowler)
LG Steve Hutchinson – 1st rd pick by SEA in 2001 (acquired by Minny as FA in 2006; Pro Bowler)
C John Sullivan – 6th round/187th pick in 2008
RG Anthony Herrera – Undrafted FA in 2005
RT Phil Loadholt – 2nd round/54th pick in 2009

New Orleans Saints
LT Jermon Bushrod – 4th rd pick in 2007
LG Carl Nicks – 5th rd pick in 2008
C Jonathan Goodwin – 5th rd pick 2002 (acquired by N.O. in 2006)
RG Jahri Evans – 4th rd pick 2006 (Pro Bowler)
RT Jon Stinchcomb – 2nd rd pick 2003 (Pro Bowler)

New York Jets
LT D’Brickashaw Ferguson – 1st rd pick 2006 (Pro Bowler)
LG Alan Faneca – 1st rd pick 1998 by PIT (acquired by Jets as FA in 2008; Pro Bowler)
C Nick Mangold – 1st rd pick 2006 (Pro Bowler)
LG Brandon Moore – Undrafted FA in 2002
RT Damien Woody – 1st rd pick 1999 by NE (acquired by Jets as FA in 2008)

I like the way the Jets built their lines, especially acquiring players like Ferguson and Mangold. All of these teams have had success running the ball (Rushing rankings: Jets #4, N.O. #6, and Minny #13), and have done a good job protecting their QB (Fewest sacks rankings: N.O.#4, Jets #10, and Minny tied for #15).

Re: Offensive Lines in the Playoffs
 

I think you're forgetting a team. So why no love for the Colts?

Re: Offensive Lines in the Playoffs
 

If you can't win the battle in the trenches , you have a hill to climb in order to win each week IMO . The 70's Dolphins / Raiders / Steelers all had great OL's and they won 7 Super Bowls . We had the HOGS and won 3 . Hail to Allen/Shanahan .... bring in some baby hogs and load up on diesel fuel !!!

Re: Offensive Lines in the Playoffs
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;656303]I think you're forgetting a team.[/quote]

I left out Indy purposefully because of the Manning factor. Also, they were dead last in rushing. However, their offensive line did a great job protecting Manning, I believe they were top ten in protecting the QB. Anyway, here's their line:

Indiannapolis Colts
LT Charlie Johnson – 6th rd pick 2006; Tony Ugoh – 2nd rd pick in 2007 (both have started this season)
LG Ryan Lilja – Undrafted FA signed by KC in 2004; acquired by Indy in 2006
C Jeff Saturday – Undrafted FA signed by Ravens in 1998; acquired by Indy in 1999 (Pro Bowler)
RG Kyle DeVan – Undrafted FA signed by Washington in 2008; acquired by Indy in 2009
RT Ryan Diem – 4th rd pick in 2001

Re: Offensive Lines in the Playoffs
 

[quote=Ruhskins;656311]I left out Indy purposefully because of the Manning factor. Also, they were dead last in rushing. However, their offensive line did a great job protecting Manning, I believe they were top ten in protecting the QB. Anyway, here's their line:

Indiannapolis Colts
LT Charlie Johnson – 6th rd pick 2006; Tony Ugoh – 2nd rd pick in 2007 (both have started this season)
LG Ryan Lilja – Undrafted FA signed by KC in 2004; acquired by Indy in 2006
C John Sullivan – Undrafted FA signed by Ravens in 1998; acquired by Indy in 1999 (Pro Bowler)
RG Kyle DeVan – Undrafted FA signed by Washington in 2008; acquired by Indy in 2009
RT Ryan Diem – 4th rd pick in 2001[/quote]

John Sullivan is a Center for the Vikings. I think you meant to say Jeff Saturday. Didn't know though that the Colts line was in such a funk. I mean I knew they struggled on the ground but I didn't know that they had benched their two second rounders (Pollak and Ugoh).

Re: Offensive Lines in the Playoffs
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;656318]John Sullivan is a Center for the Vikings. I think you meant to say Jeff Saturday. Didn't know though that the Colts line was in such a funk. I mean I knew they struggled on the ground but I didn't know that they had benched their two second rounders (Pollak and Ugoh).[/quote]

Oops I screw that up, fixing it now.

Well the info that I got was from their website's depth chart.

Re: Offensive Lines in the Playoffs
 

There are multiple ways to build a good offensive line.

Way #1: Spend high draft picks (Rounds 1 and 2) on offensive linemen, develop them and hope they don't blow out a knee.


Way #2: Look for "hidden gems" in the laste rounds or in the UFA ranks, develop them and hope they don't blow out a knee.


Way #3: Draft or get via UFA two - - or even three - - good OL and then sign via free agency a couple of Pro-Bowlers none of whom blows out a knee.


Now, tell me which of these three avenues to a GOOD offensive line the Redskins have followed over the past decade? The answer would be Way #2 - - except for the minor problem that the Redskins' hidden gems seem to have turned out to be Fools' Gold!


The Skins tried "Way #2" - - - but the folks who did the evaluation of the potential "hidden gems" seem to have been wrong close to 100% of the time. [If you want to argue with that, please look at the 2009 roster and tell me which of the "hidden gems" played like a "real" NFL quality OL for 16 games or so. After you can't find one, just admit that the evaluation process was probably faulty from the beginning.]

Or maybe it wasn't the evaluators' fault; maybe their decisions were overriden by some goofs in the FO at draft time or at UFA signing time or at the time when it became obvious that they had to sift through the culls of other teams.

Or maybe it was the coaches' fault.

Or maybe - - to use a couple of the classic whipping boys of the Warpath - - it was Mike Florio's and Jason LaCanfora's fault...

Re: Offensive Lines in the Playoffs
 

So if they draft Okung 4th overall who is the 2nd round pick? or which FA do they go after? OT McNeil?

Re: Offensive Lines in the Playoffs
 

[quote=sportscurmudgeon;656336]There are multiple ways to build a good offensive line.

Way #1: Spend high draft picks (Rounds 1 and 2) on offensive linemen, develop them and hope they don't blow out a knee.


Way #2: Look for "hidden gems" in the laste rounds or in the UFA ranks, develop them and hope they don't blow out a knee.


Way #3: Draft or get via UFA two - - or even three - - good OL and then sign via free agency a couple of Pro-Bowlers none of whom blows out a knee.


Now, tell me which of these three avenues to a GOOD offensive line the Redskins have followed over the past decade? The answer would be Way #2 - - except for the minor problem that the Redskins' hidden gems seem to have turned out to be Fools' Gold!


The Skins tried "Way #2" - - - but the folks who did the evaluation of the potential "hidden gems" seem to have been wrong close to 100% of the time. [If you want to argue with that, please look at the 2009 roster and tell me which of the "hidden gems" played like a "real" NFL quality OL for 16 games or so. After you can't find one, just admit that the evaluation process was probably faulty from the beginning.]

Or maybe it wasn't the evaluators' fault; maybe their decisions were overriden by some goofs in the FO at draft time or at UFA signing time or at the time when it became obvious that they had to sift through the culls of other teams.

Or maybe it was the coaches' fault.

Or maybe - - to use a couple of the classic whipping boys of the Warpath - - it was Mike Florio's and Jason LaCanfora's fault...[/quote]

Jeremy Bridges whom we cut during pre-season started much of the season at RT for the Cardinals.
Option #4: Better evaluation of players already on team roster.

Re: Offensive Lines in the Playoffs
 

[quote=WaldSkins;656353]Jeremy Bridges whom we cut during pre-season started much of the season at RT for the Cardinals.
Option #4: Better evaluation of players already on team roster.[/quote]

Or a combination of drafting players with your top draft picks, acquiring free agents, and looking for hidden gems.

Re: Offensive Lines in the Playoffs
 

Yeah Bridges. another great move by the FO. oh well

Re: Offensive Lines in the Playoffs
 

WaldSkins:

I liked the signing of Bridges the day they did it and said so here. The fact that the organization - - coaches, FO, owner, whomever - - chose to cut him and keep the stiffs they kept is a testimony to the incompetence of at least one decision maker.

That is why I said in another thread that no one - - as in NO ONE - - from the current coaching staff should be retained in the new "regime" and that there should be a very hard look at the people who do the talent evaluation for this organization.

Bridges was good enough to play LT for about half the year for a playoff-caliber team but he could not make it here over - - fill in the blank with the name of the stumblebum of the week.

Re: Offensive Lines in the Playoffs
 

[quote=DBUCHANON101;656359]Yeah Bridges. another great move by the FO. oh well[/quote]

Atleast we still have Renaldo Wynn

Re: Offensive Lines in the Playoffs
 

[quote=WaldSkins;656353][B]Jeremy Bridges whom we cut during pre-season started much of the season at RT for the Cardinals.
Option #4: Better evaluation of players already on team roster.[/B][/quote]

Excellent point. Bridges would have been a big help to us this year. Instead we set him free and got nothing in return.

Re: Offensive Lines in the Playoffs
 

[quote=sportscurmudgeon;656360]
Bridges was good enough to play LT for about half the year for a playoff-caliber team but he could not make it here over - - fill in the blank with the name of the stumblebum of the week.[/quote]


But but.....he was cut for a reason. Whats the reason exactly? I don't know but it has to be a good one.

Ok Vinny why did we cut him?

Vinny: Well you see I asked Jeremy after practice one day if he would be willing to play Wide Receiver, since you can never have to many skilled players. So he kind of gave me this funny look and told me he was an offensive lineman not a receiver. Anyway long story short I asked Dan if I could cut him and he said yes, especially after I told him the Receiver story.

Re: Offensive Lines in the Playoffs
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;656365]But but.....he was cut for a reason. Whats the reason exactly? I don't know but it has to be a good one.[/quote]

We wanted to shore up the D-line with Renaldo Wynn

Re: Offensive Lines in the Playoffs
 

With the zone blocking coming to DC, doesn't that take Okung out of the picture for us?

Re: Offensive Lines in the Playoffs
 

[quote=sportscurmudgeon;656336]There are multiple ways to build a good offensive line.

Way #1: Spend high draft picks (Rounds 1 and 2) on offensive linemen, develop them and hope they don't blow out a knee.


Way #2: Look for "hidden gems" in the laste rounds or in the UFA ranks, develop them and hope they don't blow out a knee.


Way #3: Draft or get via UFA two - - or even three - - good OL and then sign via free agency a couple of Pro-Bowlers none of whom blows out a knee.


Now, tell me which of these three avenues to a GOOD offensive line the Redskins have followed over the past decade? The answer would be Way #2 - - except for the minor problem that the Redskins' hidden gems seem to have turned out to be Fools' Gold!


The Skins tried "Way #2" - - - but the folks who did the evaluation of the potential "hidden gems" seem to have been wrong close to 100% of the time. [If you want to argue with that, please look at the 2009 roster and tell me which of the "hidden gems" played like a "real" NFL quality OL for 16 games or so. After you can't find one, just admit that the evaluation process was probably faulty from the beginning.]

Or maybe it wasn't the evaluators' fault; maybe their decisions were overriden by some goofs in the FO at draft time or at UFA signing time or at the time when it became obvious that they had to sift through the culls of other teams.

Or maybe it was the coaches' fault.

Or maybe - - to use a couple of the classic whipping boys of the Warpath - - it was Mike Florio's and Jason LaCanfora's fault...[/quote]or maybe the Redskins acquired top level FA talent (Rabach, Thomas, Dock) and re-signed their own (Samuels, Jansen) that didn't last as long as anticipated due to unforseen injuries to players who were previously pretty injury free.

Redskins starting OL Game 1 2009:
LT - Chris Samuels, Rd. 1, over pick # 3
LG - Derrick Dockery, Rd. 3, pick # 81 (let go in FA because contract demand was too high, returned as a FA with reasonable contract)
C - Casey Rabach, Rd. 3, pick # 92 (signed as FA in 2005)
RG - Randy Thomas, Rd. 2, pick # 57 (signed as FA in 2003)
RT - Stephon Heyer, UFA

Give the FO bashing a rest. :bdh: We get it, the OL broke down, bad decisions were made. Vinny was fired, Zorn and the rest of the coaching staff are gone. Let's move on.

Fast-forward to the present....95% of the folks here approve the Shanahan hiring, a strong majority approved of Bruce Allen. As I've said before if $hit goes South I don't want to hear those who agreed with these hirings bashing Snyder.

and yes all the problems can be traced to Florio and JLC. They suck.

Re: Offensive Lines in the Playoffs
 

I find the NO line especially impressive because somehow w/o using high draft picks or big FA acquisitions the unit performs at a very high level. The evaluation and coaching there is working!

Re: Offensive Lines in the Playoffs
 

Speaking of knees getting blown out -- I was watching a little bit of NFL Replay last night of the game between the Jets and Colts a few weeks ago. On one of the plays, the Jets RT Damien Woody got his knee rolled up when Freeney sacked Mark Sanchez. Dan Dierdorf said Woody was lucky to be able to walk off the field on his own power. Well, Woody is still playing now.

That's an example of pure luck -- the football gods shining down on the Jets; because if it were the Redskins, recent history says that a similar play to anyone of our linemen would have meant a season-ending injury. Perhaps even career ending.

Re: Offensive Lines in the Playoffs
 

So 2 teams with nearly all high picks and 2 teams with nearly all low picks

I think that what we've learned is just that you need good linemen and it doesn't matter where you got them from

Re: Offensive Lines in the Playoffs
 

[quote=tryfuhl;656619]So 2 teams with nearly all high picks and 2 teams with nearly all low picks

[B]I think that what we've learned is just that you need good linemen and it doesn't matter where you got them from[/B][/quote]

Pretty much. And when you ignore an old and often injured OL group for too many years, you end up 4-12.

Re: Offensive Lines in the Playoffs
 

[quote=Mattyk;656621]Pretty much. And when you ignore an old and often injured OL group for too many years, you end up 4-12.[/quote]

Matty:

The OL at the start of 2009 was aging at 3 positions (LT, C, RG) and had seen "spotty performance" in the past from its RT. [I'm trying to be polite here; Stephon Heyer may have been the worst starting RT in the league in Week 1. If not the worst, then surely in the bottom 5.]

The OL backups on the roster at the beginning of the season just weren't very good players. That is called "bad roster assembly". That is the reason the Redskins will have such a high draft pick in April 2010.

Re: Offensive Lines in the Playoffs
 

[url=http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=easterbrook/100119&sportCat=nfl]Indianapolis Colts, New York Jets, New Orleans Saints, Minnesota Vikings have the four best offensive lines in the NFL -- that's why they're all one win away from the Super Bowl - ESPN[/url]

Looks like Ruhskins was ahead of the curve.

Re: Offensive Lines in the Playoffs
 

[quote=Ruhskins;656301]Since we've been talking about the Jets offensive line, I was curious to see how the playoff teams built their lines. And I wanted to point out three out of the four offensive lines.

Minnesota Vikings
[B]LT Bryant McKinnie – 1st rd pick in 2002 (Pro Bowler)
LG Steve Hutchinson – 1st rd pick by SEA in 2001 (acquired by Minny as FA in 2006; Pro Bowler)
C John Sullivan – 6th round/187th pick in 2008
RG Anthony Herrera – Undrafted FA in 2005
RT Phil Loadholt – 2nd round/54th pick in 200[/B]9

New Orleans Saints
[B]LT Jermon Bushrod – 4th rd pick in 2007
LG Carl Nicks – 5th rd pick in 2008
C Jonathan Goodwin – 5th rd pick 2002 (acquired by N.O. in 2006)
RG Jahri Evans – 4th rd pick 2006 (Pro Bowler)
RT Jon Stinchcomb – 2nd rd pick 2003 (Pro Bowler)[/B]

New York Jets
LT D’Brickashaw Ferguson – 1st rd pick 2006 (Pro Bowler)
LG Alan Faneca – 1st rd pick 1998 by PIT (acquired by Jets as FA in 2008; Pro Bowler)
C Nick Mangold – 1st rd pick 2006 (Pro Bowler)
LG Brandon Moore – Undrafted FA in 2002
RT Damien Woody – 1st rd pick 1999 by NE (acquired by Jets as FA in 2008)

I like the way the Jets built their lines, especially acquiring players like Ferguson and Mangold. All of these teams have had success running the ball (Rushing rankings: Jets #4, N.O. #6, and Minny #13), and have done a good job protecting their QB (Fewest sacks rankings: N.O.#4, Jets #10, and Minny tied for #15).[/quote]

Proof that there's more than one way to skin the cat. The Skins can still re-build the O line even if they don't use the #4 pick on an O-linemen. Free agency and later round draft picks is just as viable an approach. And I'll take the QBs from 3 out of the 4 in a heartbeat as well - Favre, Manning, Brees. Rivers would be there if it weren't for his girlified kicker.

Re: Offensive Lines in the Playoffs
 

[quote=44Deezel;656644]Proof that there's more than one way to skin the cat. The Skins can still re-build the O line even if they don't use the #4 pick on an O-linemen. Free agency and later round draft picks is just as viable an approach. And I'll take the QBs from 3 out of the 4 in a heartbeat as well - Favre, Manning, Brees. Rivers would be there if it weren't for his girlified kicker.[/quote]

Well but our situation is now much closer to the Jets, and they used two first-rounders on their offensive line, and were able to develop it to a point that a rookie QB managing the game has taken them deep into the playoffs.

Re: Offensive Lines in the Playoffs
 

[quote=44Deezel;656644]Proof that there's more than one way to skin the cat. The Skins can still re-build the O line even if they don't use the #4 pick on an O-linemen. Free agency and later round draft picks is just as viable an approach. And I'll take the QBs from 3 out of the 4 in a heartbeat as well - Favre, Manning, Brees. Rivers would be there if it weren't for his girlified kicker.[/quote]

True that also means that your scouting department is top notch as well but the Skins problems are that in the last 5 years they only drafted TWO o-linemen period both are non-starters at that and one no longer with us. I feel ya tho i think it will come down to Shanahan & Allen's expectations & strategy. Are they willing to rebuild for a couple of years or win now.

Re: Offensive Lines in the Playoffs
 

[quote=Mattyk;656621]Pretty much. And when you ignore an old and often injured OL group for too many years, you end up 4-12.[/quote]
No doubt. I wouldn't mind seeing some other stats on the matter such as ages.. how the teams acquired them if not drafted by them.. how long they've played with each other, etc and to see if there's more of a telling story there

but yeah.. oft-injured guys that are getting older and declining definitely isn't the most solid foundation.. we had plenty of the late picks and undrafted, but they definitely weren't starter quality and maybe only serviceable as backups

Re: Offensive Lines in the Playoffs
 

I hear that Gregg Easterbrook got the idea for his latest column from my thread about offensive lines in the playoffs. LOL.

[url=http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=easterbrook/100119&sportCat=nfl]Indianapolis Colts, New York Jets, New Orleans Saints, Minnesota Vikings have the four best offensive lines in the NFL -- that's why they're all one win away from the Super Bowl - ESPN[/url]

I should get royalties from him...well at least for the first paragraph.

Re: Offensive Lines in the Playoffs
 

[QUOTE=Ruhskins;656791]I hear that Gregg Easterbrook got the idea for his latest column from my thread about offensive lines in the playoffs. LOL.

[url=http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=easterbrook/100119&sportCat=nfl]Indianapolis Colts, New York Jets, New Orleans Saints, Minnesota Vikings have the four best offensive lines in the NFL -- that's why they're all one win away from the Super Bowl - ESPN[/url]

[B]I should get royalties from him...well at least for the first paragraph.[/[/B]QUOTE]

You're the one who brought it to our attention Ruhskins. I don't know about any royalties but how about a big thumbs up? :thumb: