The Real Leader of this Team and Some Radical Ideas
 

Ok, I've been waiting to write this for a few months but here it goes:

Jim Zorn is an honest hardworking straightforward man This makes him a transparent, predictable playcaller.

But it also makes him a strong leader. Zorn at only 3 wins has the players respect. Zorn who was humiliated by the FO didn't strike back and like a quarterback being blitzed from all directions keeps on fighting. And his players keep on fighting too.

Zorn said from the getgo - 2 years. 2 years means that we'll be ready in year 3 - not year 2.

The Redskins have been decimated by injuries this year and they can still play. Maybe Vinny gets some credit after all.

About the best player vs. need. When things are unstable systemwise and coachwise you need to pick for best player. We are now switching to a west coast offense - this switch takes years to make and we still need to fight during that time. I don't think the brand name WC coaches would want to take a team in this state. Zorn given everything has been awesome.

The whole playcalling committee is working awesome because the men are working together and respect one another. Lewis doesn't coach the players - that would be interference in the coach player relationship. Zorn wrote the playbook and coaches the guys. Lewis just mixes it up.

Jason has played well. If he had an extra second or two he would be a star.

And the draft picks - rak, jarmon, davis, DT - these guys are showing up.

And Danny has learned a lot too. Things take time.

So here's what i believe - if you can coach a losing team with dignity. if you can whether front office distractions and injuries and maintain hope and intensity. Then you're a real leader - a real coach. Zorn has done this. And if you can coach a losing team - then you can coach a winning team.

So my radical idea is as follows:
leave everything in place for another year. upgrade the o-line in the draft. Leave Vinny and Lewis and Zorn. Check out the conditioning staff to see what happened this year.

I think if we give this team one more year we'll go deep into the playoffs.

And one more radical idea - as long as we play to win and show that we deserve to win all the rest of our games like we did last week - I actually hope that we *gasp* lose. If we aren't going to the playoffs - why be 8-8 when we can be 3 - 13 and get high draft picks to trade down for more picks?
Historically teams with very bad records turn around much more easily than teams with 6 to 9 wins.

So i think Danny and the FO has a winning combination and if we can just be patient and give it one more year - we'll all be pleasantly surprised.

Re: The Real Leader of this Team and Some Radical Ideas
 

Can we get a crack smoking smiley face?

Re: The Real Leader of this Team and Some Radical Ideas
 

Not sure if I know what this thread is about exactly ^^^ LMAO!!!

Re: The Real Leader of this Team and Some Radical Ideas
 

Some people have already suggested leaving things basically the same, but it's highly unlikely to happen.

Re: The Real Leader of this Team and Some Radical Ideas
 

HolyLandSkinsFan, you want it both ways - you want the Skins to lose out and you want them to retain Zorn. Those two things are mutually exclusive. Zorn probably must win out to save his job, which would put the record at 7-9, yielding a pick somewhere around 10-15 overall.

I agree that we should consider keeping Zorn and Campbell if the team continues to play well AND wins. I just doubt that The Danny is thinking like that. He's probably preparing his battle plan for a whirlwind tour on Redskins One to bring in his new coach du jour.

Re: The Real Leader of this Team and Some Radical Ideas
 

I've had the same feelings the last few weeks. I sincerely hope Zorn is back & JC too, though I wouldn't mind seeing some competition at qb (colt b. maybe?).

My radical idea is letting Blache go. I know the D has played statistically well the last 2 years but they can't seem to close games in the 4th (I know sometimes they've been on the field a long time). I also think that he plays not to lose just like Gibbs & Zorn have done. I wouldn't mind seeing him retire & give Gray a chance.

Re: The Real Leader of this Team and Some Radical Ideas
 

Dear HLSF welcome to the WP,
I take issue with several points you make, but NOT in totality. I hope....with all my heart do I hope that YOU ARE CORRECT...........and it works as well as you suggest.
Beyond that you get a pass..........Merry Christmas, and HTTR

Re: The Real Leader of this Team and Some Radical Ideas
 

I like the post and i think it was honest and genuine.

But i dont think there is a distinction in coaching a losing team with dignity. For example, Cam Cameron went 1-15 with the dolphins...it certainly didn't get him another head coaching job. Mike Martz, fresh off a winless season with the lions, didn't have people beating down his door to offer him a job.

I think Zorn deserves credit for handling himself like a classy guy, but it isn't an excuse to keep them here because they handled things well. A losing record isn't handling anything well...

Re: The Real Leader of this Team and Some Radical Ideas
 

Danny is learning??? things take time??? its been 10 years, what proof do you have that Danny/Vinny have learned anything...at the very least you have to lose Vinny

Re: The Real Leader of this Team and Some Radical Ideas
 

Let's not confuse Zorn's ability to coach with his likeableness. Zorn is hardworking and seems to have the players respect. I just question his overall ability to coach a winning team. That's not a knock on JZ, heck, he's never been an offensive coordinator before. It seems like he is a little overwhelmed. Lewis steps in and you could see tangible improvement.

I don't know, i'm a little torn though. I think I'm more focused on Vinny getting fired and getting another GM. Of course, this would mean sweeping changes most likely.

Re: The Real Leader of this Team and Some Radical Ideas
 

Zorn is not a great leader, He is holding on to a job that pays him millions. If I was Zorn, I'd do the same thing.. You can do what you want, say what you want about me, make me look like a total puss to the public, but as long as I have the title of headcoach [B]you have to pay me[/B] and if you fire me you [B]STILL[/B] have to pay me.

I think Vinny has done a good job, the problem is that both Vinny and Snyder listens to the media and us fans way too much. For years we complained about not having big targets and no definsive line/ pass rush so they addressed that area. If there was any free agents available on the offensive line worth something over the last 2 years, I'm sure they would have brought them in. We pushed hard Leonard Davis and if Jordan Gross made it to the free market he would be a Redskin right now. No one could have foreseen what was going to happen to Samuels and Portis for that matter. I am confident that the Line will be a priority this offseason.

As nice as Zorn is, he not ready to be a NFL head coach. The truth is that Snyder should have stuck to his guns and brought in Fassel. He has crippled the growth of Zorn as a NFL coach by overwhelming him.

What should be done?
Either they comletely clean house bring in a whole new regiem or promote from within. Gray could be a good Headcoach. If he keeps Lewis as the OC and Blanche stays on as the DC we will make the playoffs. The strength of schedule will be weaker next year. Also they could invest in a JC as the QB of the future.

But we all know Shannahan wil be the coach and they will hand pick his future QB in this years draft. JC will be out of here and a vet like Vick, Hasselbeck or someone will be here until the rookie is ready to take over the team.

Re: The Real Leader of this Team and Some Radical Ideas
 

[quote=diehardskin2982;637300]Zorn is not a great leader, He is holding on to a job that pays him millions. If I was Zorn, I'd do the same thing.. You can do what you want, say what you want about me, make me look like a total puss to the public, but as long as I have the title of headcoach [B]you have to pay me[/B] and if you fire me you [B]STILL[/B] have to pay me.

I think Vinny has done a good job, the problem is that both Vinny and Snyder listens to the media and us fans way too much. For years we complained about not having big targets and no definsive line/ pass rush so they addressed that area. If there was any free agents available on the offensive line worth something over the last 2 years, I'm sure they would have brought them in. We pushed hard Leonard Davis and if Jordan Gross made it to the free market he would be a Redskin right now. No one could have foreseen what was going to happen to Samuels and Portis for that matter. I am confident that the Line will be a priority this offseason.

As nice as Zorn is, he not ready to be a NFL head coach. The truth is that Snyder should have stuck to his guns and brought in Fassel. He has crippled the growth of Zorn as a NFL coach by overwhelming him.

What should be done?
Either they comletely clean house bring in a whole new regiem or promote from within. Gray could be a good Headcoach. If he keeps Lewis as the OC and Blanche stays on as the DC we will make the playoffs. The strength of schedule will be weaker next year. Also they could invest in a JC as the QB of the future.

But we all know Shannahan wil be the coach and they will hand pick his future QB in this years draft. JC will be out of here and a vet like Vick, Hasselbeck or someone will be here until the rookie is ready to take over the team.[/quote]


Why anyone would want Vick to run a west coast style offense is beyond me. He cant throw the short crossing or out routes on a consistant basis because of his size. he can throw the ball down field, but really he is not a very good QB. Why people are infantuated with this dude is beyond me.

Re: The Real Leader of this Team and Some Radical Ideas
 

[quote=diehardskin2982;637300]Zorn is not a great leader, He is holding on to a job that pays him millions. If I was Zorn, I'd do the same thing.. You can do what you want, say what you want about me, make me look like a total puss to the public, but as long as I have the title of headcoach [B]you have to pay me[/B] and if you fire me you [B]STILL[/B] have to pay me.

I think Vinny has done a good job, the problem is that both Vinny and Snyder listens to the media and us fans way too much. For years we complained about not having big targets and no definsive line/ pass rush so they addressed that area. If there was any free agents available on the offensive line worth something over the last 2 years, I'm sure they would have brought them in. We pushed hard Leonard Davis and if Jordan Gross made it to the free market he would be a Redskin right now. No one could have foreseen what was going to happen to Samuels and Portis for that matter. I am confident that the Line will be a priority this offseason.

As nice as Zorn is, he not ready to be a NFL head coach. The truth is that Snyder should have stuck to his guns and brought in Fassel. He has crippled the growth of Zorn as a NFL coach by overwhelming him.

What should be done?
Either they comletely clean house bring in a whole new regiem or promote from within. Gray could be a good Headcoach. If he keeps Lewis as the OC and Blanche stays on as the DC we will make the playoffs. The strength of schedule will be weaker next year. Also they could invest in a JC as the QB of the future.

But we all know Shannahan wil be the coach and they will hand pick his future QB in this years draft. JC will be out of here and a vet like Vick, Hasselbeck or someone will be here until the rookie is ready to take over the team.[/quote]

After watching Vick play a brokedown wildcat form for an actually decent Philly team, I can only think Vick's half the QB he used to be. Dude's not starting material anymore, imo.

Re: The Real Leader of this Team and Some Radical Ideas
 

i guess part of being a good leader is getting the gang to play hard, long after they know they are out of it. i don't think anyone on this board would argue the skins aren't playing hard. i would think this would be one of the toughest things to do in sports

Re: The Real Leader of this Team and Some Radical Ideas
 

Boring....and...stupid thread. I am not entertained at all. :Flush:

Re: The Real Leader of this Team and Some Radical Ideas
 

[quote=DynamiteRave;637326]After watching Vick play a brokedown wildcat form for an actually decent Philly team, I can only think Vick's half the QB he used to be. Dude's not starting material anymore, imo.[/quote]

I feel you right about Vick, but Snyder listens to the fans. There are enough dumb ass people out here blindly screaming for Vick to be a starting QB, even heard Lavar say it on the radio once!

Re: The Real Leader of this Team and Some Radical Ideas
 

I think Vick is showing flashes of his old self and what he could do.

Vick, who is arguably still in his prime, used to be a nightmare for def. coordinators because of the plays that he could make with his arm or feet.

2 years out of the game hurt him, but he is getting back slowly, and i think a full offseason of work and a full training camp and he is back to his old self again. He will start next year somewhere...i'm sure of it.

Re: The Real Leader of this Team and Some Radical Ideas
 

I don't disagree w/those that say Zorn has been in over his head. But there have been some notable changes since Sherm Lewis was brought in, if for no other reason than the players started to play out of respect (and maybe sympathy) for Zorn & all the pressure that was on him from the top.

Also, it's not just the players that take time to learn a new system. Zorn is learning as a coach. IMO, firing him now & starting w/a new offense is gambling w/all the investment of the last 2 years. Sure, maybe we'd hit the jackpot w/a new coach, but more than likely it would be another transition & another couple years, before things look decent.

I really think Zorn has earned the respect of everyone & deserves a chance to correct his mistakes, while also seeing his offense mature. Zorn is no S. Spurrier, he's showing improvement in his second year.

Re: The Real Leader of this Team and Some Radical Ideas
 

I think Zorn has regressed, personally. He goes 8-8 last year, and now, best case scenario he finishes 7-9, but he must run the tables to even do that.

More likely he finishes 3-13 or 4-12.

The improvement came when another playcaller was brought in. Unfortunatley Sherm was brought in too late....

Re: The Real Leader of this Team and Some Radical Ideas
 

I don't think there are too many different likely outcomes that could happen next year.

The Redskins either stay with Zorn, and either draft a qb or stay with Campbell. Likely Gray becomes DC because Blache will retire. It will be year three, coming off a 3-13/4-12/5-11 year, and marked improvement in our offense being able to fully execute Zorn's WCO. We're probably looking at a record of 7-9 to 11-5.

Or, the house is cleaned and we start all over again. Winning record not until 2011.

I agree with those that exclaim that not only are our players continuing to pick up the playbook, but Zorn is also learning how to be the HC he can be.

With the way we are playing right now, despite all of our injuries even, we're about 3 plays away from being 6-6 and in the hunt for a wildcard berth.

I vote stay the course. I think Vinny is at least competent enough to know that with the possibility of Samuels and Thomas being done, T and G are top needs.

Mods: can we get a poll for "stay the course with Zorn" or "Clean House"

Re: The Real Leader of this Team and Some Radical Ideas
 

[quote=SolidSnake84;637365]I think Zorn has regressed, personally. He goes 8-8 last year, and now, best case scenario he finishes 7-9, but he must run the tables to even do that.

More likely he finishes 3-13 or 4-12.

The improvement came when another playcaller was brought in. Unfortunatley Sherm was brought in too late....[/quote]

Well the team clearly regressed, but Zorn as a HC, I think has taken positive steps forward, specifically once playcalling was (mostly)off his plate. I am curious what everyone thinks, if/when the Skins fire him, does he get another HC shot?

Re: The Real Leader of this Team and Some Radical Ideas
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;637369]Well the team clearly regressed, but Zorn as a HC, I think has taken positive steps forward, specifically once playcalling was (mostly)off his plate. I am curious what everyone thinks, if/when the Skins fire him, does he get another HC shot?[/quote]

in college

Re: The Real Leader of this Team and Some Radical Ideas
 

Zorn will probably get a job as a QB coach rather quickly, he may even get an offensive coordinator position. He needs some more experience I think before he's given another HC job.

He's, by all accounts, a very nice guy. But there is a prevailing feeling from those who are around the team that one reason the coaches like him is because they can kind of walk all over him. Meaning basically that they'd rather have a Zorn who won't be a taskmaster than someone one who will be more demanding and more of a disciplinarian.

Two things concern me about Zorn as head coach. One is the obvious with the playcalling. The other is that when times were bleak early in the season it wasn't Zorn that stepped up and said this is on me. It was Blache.

Re: The Real Leader of this Team and Some Radical Ideas
 

[quote=#56fanatic;637308]Why anyone would want Vick to run a west coast style offense is beyond me. He cant throw the short crossing or out routes on a consistant basis because of his size. he can throw the ball down field, but really he is not a very good QB. Why people are infantuated with this dude is beyond me.[/quote]

because we are for the most part in virginia and there are a lot of virginia tech homers out there that think vick is god and can do no wrong

i don't get it either he was good, never great, and he has obviously lost a step

Re: The Real Leader of this Team and Some Radical Ideas
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;637369]Well the team clearly regressed, but Zorn as a HC, I think has taken positive steps forward, specifically once playcalling was (mostly)off his plate.[B] I am curious what everyone thinks, if/when the Skins fire him, does he get another HC shot[/B]?[/quote]

That's a good question C. I wouldn't think so, but then again, Norv keeps getting hired. There may be someone out there who likes the way this team hasn't given up and believes that Zorn could come to a team already familiar with the WCO and help their QB get over the hump. I think he's held this team together pretty well considering the circumstances.

Re: The Real Leader of this Team and Some Radical Ideas
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;637369]Well the team clearly regressed, but Zorn as a HC, I think has taken positive steps forward, specifically once playcalling was (mostly)off his plate. I am curious what everyone thinks, if/when the Skins fire him, does he get another HC shot?[/quote]

i think if holmgren gets started somewhere next year he wouldn't mind giving zorn another shot in some way

Re: The Real Leader of this Team and Some Radical Ideas
 

[quote=mlmdub130;637405]i think if holmgren gets started somewhere next year he wouldn't mind giving zorn another shot in some way[/quote]

Maybe Zorn will be the OC in Seattle next year.

Re: The Real Leader of this Team and Some Radical Ideas
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;637369]Well the team clearly regressed, but Zorn as a HC, I think has taken positive steps forward, specifically once playcalling was (mostly)off his plate. I am curious what everyone thinks, if/when the Skins fire him, does he get another HC shot?[/quote]

I'm not sure that his record will speak for another shot at HC for Zorn. Maybe he can be OC for some time and alter his rep. I wish him well, though.

BTW very creative use of "Gano" in your user title. You win! :)

Re: The Real Leader of this Team and Some Radical Ideas
 

Although unlikely, leaving things in place and staying the course with Zorn seems like a good idea at this point. The thing thats important here is consistency- Zorn obviously has some skills, i.e. motivating players. Why not put him in a capacity where the organization can make the most use of his skills at the moment without complete overhaul?

Re: The Real Leader of this Team and Some Radical Ideas
 

i agree on some stuff but....im sorry but if you root for your team to lose you are not a true fan. That completely defeats the purpose no matter the circumstances

Re: The Real Leader of this Team and Some Radical Ideas
 

Vinny has to go and we need a house clearing - why? Let me ask this - if Vinny and the Front Office and Zorn are so great how come the Redskins have one of the highest payrolls while also having one of the worst records? Sorry but a lot of people including a ton of posters on this board were screaming that we needed to address the offensive line and yet how often does this team invest its draft picks in the past 7 years on offensive lineman? Also every NFL team has got injuries - yes the Skins have a lot of them this year but I continue to say that the average life of an NFL player is 3.5 years - so if you build a major portion of your roster on players that exceed this average age you are simply playing Russian roulette with a lot more bullets.

While I hate the constant churn I think this is the best opportunity to clear house and start the first building block by selecting the best GM money can buy. Once you have this GM in place give him the keys - overspend first on your front office and scouting department, and than when this is in place let the GM hire the coach. All Dan Snyder would do is focus on the marketing of the team and signing paychecks. I think this give us the best chance of building a sustainable and competitive team year in and year out.

Re: The Real Leader of this Team and Some Radical Ideas
 

[quote=SmootSmack;637385]Zorn will probably get a job as a QB coach rather quickly, he may even get an offensive coordinator position. He needs some more experience I think before he's given another HC job.

He's, by all accounts, a very nice guy. [B]But there is a prevailing feeling from those who are around the team that one reason the coaches like him is because they can kind of walk all over him. Meaning basically that they'd rather have a Zorn who won't be a taskmaster than someone one who will be more demanding and more of a disciplinarian.[/B]

Two things concern me about Zorn as head coach. One is the obvious with the playcalling. The other is that when times were bleak early in the season it wasn't Zorn that stepped up and said this is on me. It was Blache.[/quote]

I've pretty much heard the same thing. The players like him and maybe for all the wrong reasons. I do get the sense that last year's second round picks and the Maryland guys like it here. Still, as freddyg12 pointed out, unless we hit the jackpot with the next coach and basically go deep into the playoffs his first year, you're looking at a transition period that might not be worth it. And if Shanahan comes here, we can wave Sherm Lewis bye-bye.

If --big if--Zorn can grow from this season's setbacks and mistakes, I don't think there's any reason to believe this isn't already a 10-6 team. Heck, a two of our losses can be placed squarely on the foot of Suisham and couple of flukely plays. But that's all water under the bridge now.

Re: The Real Leader of this Team and Some Radical Ideas
 

[quote=SolidSnake84;637342]I think Vick is showing flashes of his old self and what he could do.

Vick, who is arguably still in his prime, used to be a nightmare for def. coordinators because of the plays that he could make with his arm or feet.

2 years out of the game hurt him, but he is getting back slowly, and i think a full offseason of work and a full training camp and he is back to his old self again. He will start next year somewhere...i'm sure of it.[/quote]

Vick is showing flashes in spurts, not for 60 minutes. Woe unto the team that starts Michael Vick next year.

Re: The Real Leader of this Team and Some Radical Ideas
 

Wow. You guys actually took him seriously and gave serious comments which lasted atleast 3 pages.

I couldn't get past "Zorn said from the get go..."

I know it's impolite but I honestly don't want to read a 4-5 paragraph write up about how we should keep Zorn or how we should keep Cerrato or worse keep status quo.

Re: The Real Leader of this Team and Some Radical Ideas
 

[quote=SBXVII;637484]Wow. You guys actually took him seriously and gave serious comments which lasted atleast 3 pages.

I couldn't get past "Zorn said from the get go..."

[B]I know it's impolite [/B]but I honestly don't want to read a 4-5 paragraph write up about how we should keep Zorn or how we should keep Cerrato or worse keep status quo.[/quote]

it's not, no one does

Re: The Real Leader of this Team and Some Radical Ideas
 

I can't believe I am saying this ... With the losses in the past few weeks and the effort were getting, I'm not against keeping Zorno ... everyone must admit that since Sherman has come in, the Offense has actually looked like a real offense ... now I agree that VC has got to go ... but maybe just maybe this coaching staff deserves a chance ... the Z man has everyone playing there ass off and we are 3-9, that's not easy ... all the big name coaches sound good but does that mean we are starting from scratch again and drafting a shit head QB in the draft when they all seem to be overated big time .. JC has shown me a lot and the devlopment of DT,FD, & MK has been nice ... draft the hell out of 0-Line next year and this team may not be too far from a decent run ...

Re: The Real Leader of this Team and Some Radical Ideas
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;637252]Can we get a crack smoking smiley face?[/quote]
LMAO!:laughing2

Re: The Real Leader of this Team and Some Radical Ideas
 

There are reasons for everything, and what you're saying would be ideal if you were dealing with people who understood, and took into consideration the reasons for losing. Unfortunately we're talking about a game where "all" that matters is winning and losing. Therefore it's not likely things will stay the same despite the fact some may wish it so.

Re: The Real Leader of this Team and Some Radical Ideas
 

[quote=Lotus;637427]I'm not sure that his record will speak for another shot at HC for Zorn. Maybe he can be OC for some time and alter his rep. I wish him well, though.

[B]BTW very creative use of "Gano" in your user title.[/B] You win! :)[/quote]

Thanks, you were the inspiration, so Ganamos!

Re: The Real Leader of this Team and Some Radical Ideas
 

The difference between when Zorn has the skins playing their ass off, and when Gibbs had them playin hard is that we won games.