Where Do You Place the Blame for our Personnel Woes? (Reference to Sally Jenkin's Latest)
 

Regardless of who's been in charge of personnel decisions during Snyders ownership of the team, a couple of things have remained more or less the same:
1. draft picks are traded away for high priced veterans;
2. huge multi-year contracts to a handful of players;
3. #2 has eliminated the ability of the team to carry anything resembling depth at most positions, meaning we are always one or two injurys away from total disaster
4. Quarterback position instability
5. A general neglect of the offensive line
6. The complete and utter inability to find and develop #2-#5 wide receivers

Now, I've gone on record here a number of times as putting most of the blame/credit on:

-Snyder for personnel decisions prior to Joe Gibbs return
-Joe Gibbs for the moves the team made during his tenure here
-Vinny Cerrato for personnel decisions made after Gibbs left.

However, a couple of quotes from Sally Jenkins latest, most truthful, least "hateful" article she's ever written have made me change my mind. Do they change yours?

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/20/AR2009102003374.html]washingtonpost.com[/url]

[QUOTE]It's fascinating, if painful, to look back to the day in 2008 when Snyder elevated Cerrato to the title of executive vice president of football operations. "The appointment formalizes the structure the team has operated under in recent years," Snyder said then.

Outgoing coach Joe Gibbs issued a statement of congratulations. "Today's Washington Redskins roster is a testament to Vinny and the personnel department," Gibbs said.

There you have it.
[/QUOTE]

It seem's Vinny's had more control this entire time than I realized. I'm done making excuses for him. Hopefully Snyder is too.

Re: Where Do You Place the Blame for our Personnel Woes? (Reference to Sally Jenkin's Latest)
 

What's popping BHA? I don't know or care enough anymore. All I know is that I'm going Black Bass fishing at the end of the month. All fingers point back to Al Snyderato IMO. We looked like we were getting back on track at the end of Gibbs 2.0, but it just went to shit again after he left.

Re: Where Do You Place the Blame for our Personnel Woes? (Reference to Sally Jenkin's Latest)
 

For me it boils down to a lack of a focused, long-term plan for building the team. The team always seems to be in "win now" mode when they're clearly not even close. It's all about knowing who you are, where you want to go, and how you intend on getting there.

Re: Where Do You Place the Blame for our Personnel Woes? (Reference to Sally Jenkin's Latest)
 

[quote=Mattyk72;613447]For me it boils down to a lack of a focused, long-term plan for building the team. The team always seems to be in "win now" mode when they're clearly not even close. It's all about knowing who you are, where you want to go, and how you intend on getting there.[/quote]

Exactly. We've been in a "one player away" mindset for years now. No vision, no plan, and IGNORING THE DAMN LINE OF SCRIMMAGE!

Dan and Vinny seem to equate big names and talent with winning. Nope. Not how it works fellas.

Re: Where Do You Place the Blame for our Personnel Woes? (Reference to Sally Jenkin's Latest)
 

why is gibbs 2.0 consider a success? I don't see it at all- yes we limped into the playoffs but in terms of "righting the ship" (he did the best he could) but i think his value has been glamorized.

As for the blame- it starts and ends with Danny. He makes the decisions himself or hires the guys that make them (vinny). He's way overbearing and way too involved. The blame is his alone- and until he realizes that, we are screwed.

Re: Where Do You Place the Blame for our Personnel Woes? (Reference to Sally Jenkin's Latest)
 

[quote=Mattyk72;613447]For me it boils down to a lack of a focused, long-term plan for building the team. The team always seems to be in "win now" mode when they're clearly not even close. It's all about knowing who you are, where you want to go, and how you intend on getting there.[/quote]

I agree that the organization does not seem to have a focused long term plan/philosophy for creating and maintaining a winning franchise. It seems that they plug in available free agents without regard to how they fit into the big picture. Winning organizations use one or two free agents to put them over the top not to revamp the roster each off season. Winning organizations use the draft to develop depth and create home grown talent ready to step in when a player goes down or want a big free agent contract, not for trading away to sign over-aged over-priced free agents.

I am sure the Skins know where they want to go but its obvious the mgmt doesnt have a clue how to get there. Its not rocket science to look at how the consistently successful franchises build their teams and frankly I am shocked DS has been such a slow learner. I think DS has continued to take the approach he has because its never got bad enough to force him to change. Its pretty bad now, maybe he will change.

Re: Where Do You Place the Blame for our Personnel Woes? (Reference to Sally Jenkin's Latest)
 

They blame goes to Vinny and Snyder.
1) they can not hire a good coaching staff and do not understand how to do it properly, hire HC first then the assistants..duh.
2) they are not good enough in player personnel decisions to build a sturdy franchise
3) they can not get over their fascination in making a splash in FA. Snyderatto loves to sign the big name FA to big contracts, leaving little money left to fill out the bottom of the roster with quality depth.
A small amount of blame does go to Gibbs, but he turned the franchise around and got us back to respectability and the playoffs. He leaves and Snyderatto has us back in the shitter. Not a coincidence.

Re: Where Do You Place the Blame for our Personnel Woes? (Reference to Sally Jenkin's Latest)
 

BHA this is just rehashing the same stuff again and again and please don't take this as a knock on your thread. All we can hope for right now is that things have hit such a low that DS see's the issues and starts the first day after the season to correct the problems.

Re: Where Do You Place the Blame for our Personnel Woes? (Reference to Sally Jenkin's Latest)
 

[quote=BrunellMVP?;613456]why is gibbs 2.0 consider a success? I don't see it at all- yes we limped into the playoffs but in terms of "righting the ship" (he did the best he could) but i think his value has been glamorized.

As for the blame- it starts and ends with Danny. He makes the decisions himself or hires the guys that make them (vinny). He's way overbearing and way too involved. The blame is his alone- and until he realizes that, we are screwed.[/quote]

Sweeping the Cowboys and Eagles, beating the Giants, and beating Tampa Bay in the play-offs (AKA Pay Back). Compared to where we are at now and where we were before, I'll take it. No, it wasn't the best but it was going in the right direction. That's all I'm saying.

Re: Where Do You Place the Blame for our Personnel Woes? (Reference to Sally Jenkin's Latest)
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;613469]Sweeping the Cowboys and Eagles, beating the Giants, and beating Tampa Bay in the play-offs (AKA Pay Back). Compared to where we are at now and where we were before, I'll take it. No, it wasn't the best but it was going in the right direction. That's all I'm saying.[/quote]

Amen.
We went from 5-11 under Spurrier/Snyder and Vinny in 2003 and being the laughing stock of football on the field.
One year later in 2005, Gibbs leads us to 10-6 and the playoffs. That is a short time to turnaround a franchise that was in bad shape.
Gibbs left after the 2007 season of 9-7 and another playoff season, only to one year later under Snyder/Cerratto and Zorn have us 2-4 and we are the laughing stock of the NFL again.
Gibbs made us respectable on the field again. That is all I ask.

Re: Where Do You Place the Blame for our Personnel Woes? (Reference to Sally Jenkin's Latest)
 

Sally's latest colum is just another in the long list of which she continues to state the obvious. Even the staunchest homer would be hard pressed to disagree. Nothing new, nothing we haven't been saying here for the longest time, maybe just in different terms.

It's worth noting though that the noise is getting louder, let's hope the message gets through to it's intended target.

Re: Where Do You Place the Blame for our Personnel Woes? (Reference to Sally Jenkin's Latest)
 

Regarding the teams plan/philosophy of plugging in free agents - if I owned the Skins and was a businessman first and fan 2nd, i'd do the same thing - fans keep buying the jerseys of every new free agent we acquire. last year, I was appauled at how many Jason Taylor Jerseys were out there... the guy was going to be here 1-2 years TOPS. Why on earth would people buy his jersey?

Maybe if we, as fans, signed a "petition" promising to buy the jersey of the next first round offensive linemen the Redskins drafted, Snyderatto would listen. I've bought Cooley, Portis, and Sean Taylor Jerseys for myself and my father, but going forward, i'm only buying jerseys of players we draft. Its the only thing - other than not attending games- I think we fans can do that would make a difference.

Re: Where Do You Place the Blame for our Personnel Woes? (Reference to Sally Jenkin's Latest)
 

[quote=Defensewins;613476]Amen.
We went from 5-11 under Spurrier/Snyder and Vinny in 2003 and being the laughing stock of football on the field.
One year later in 2005, Gibbs leads us to 10-6 and the playoffs. That is a short time to turnaround a franchise that was in bad shape.
Gibbs left after the 2007 season of 9-7 and another playoff season, only to one year later under Snyder/Cerratto and Zorn have us 2-4 and we are the laughing stock of the NFL again.
Gibbs made us respectable on the field again. That is all I ask.[/quote]

I'm sick and tired of people bitching about Gibbs II. He came in and did what he could with what he had, he inherited a mess and wanted a quick turn around (I'm sure at Danny's request) which led to some questionable moves. Redskins fans as usual "very impatient" wanted to see quick results and that's the end result. People can't deny that Gibbs II was still the most successful period of the Snyder years.

Re: Where Do You Place the Blame for our Personnel Woes? (Reference to Sally Jenkin's Latest)
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;613479]I'm sick and tired of people bitching about Gibbs II. He came in and did what he could with what he had, he inherited a mess and wanted a quick turn around (I'm sure at Danny's request) which led to some questionable moves. Redskins fans as usual "very impatient" wanted to see quick results and that's the end result. People can't deny that Gibbs II was still the most successful period of the Snyder years.[/quote]

There's no denying that. Every coach that comes here people expect a quick turnaround, even from the one we have now, and he's never been a coach before. Check out the coach that follows Zorn.......It's going to be the exact same thing.

Re: Where Do You Place the Blame for our Personnel Woes? (Reference to Sally Jenkin's Latest)
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;613478]Regarding the teams plan/philosophy of plugging in free agents - if I owned the Skins and was a businessman first and fan 2nd, i'd do the same thing - fans keep buying the jerseys of every new free agent we acquire. last year, I was appauled at how many Jason Taylor Jerseys were out there... the guy was going to be here 1-2 years TOPS. Why on earth would people buy his jersey?

Maybe if we, as fans, signed a "petition" promising to buy the jersey of the next first round offensive linemen the Redskins drafted, Snyderatto would listen. I've bought Cooley, Portis, and Sean Taylor Jerseys for myself and my father, but going forward, i'm only buying jerseys of players we draft. Its the only thing - other than not attending games- I think we fans can do that would make a difference.[/quote]

Mr. Snyder - A football franchise first goal should always be field a good team and win a super bowl, not sell jersey's. If you have a good team, the jersey will sell themselves.

Re: Where Do You Place the Blame for our Personnel Woes? (Reference to Sally Jenkin's Latest)
 

[quote=Defensewins;613476]Amen.
We went from 5-11 under [SIZE=4]Spurrier/Snyder[/SIZE] and Vinny in 2003 and being the laughing stock of football on the field.
One year later in 2005, [SIZE=4]Gibbs leads[/SIZE] us to 10-6 and the playoffs. That is a short time to turnaround a franchise that was in bad shape.
[SIZE=4]Gibbs left after the 2007 season of 9-7[/SIZE] and another playoff season, only to one year later under [SIZE=4]Snyder/Cerratto and Zorn[/SIZE] have us 2-4 and we are the laughing stock of the NFL again.
Gibbs made us respectable on the field again. That is all I ask.[/quote]

I notice you put Snyder besides all the bad things but only Gibbs name by the success and you also left off the two bad Gibbs/Snyder years.

Re: Where Do You Place the Blame for our Personnel Woes? (Reference to Sally Jenkin's Latest)
 

[quote=firstdown;613494]I notice you put Snyder besides all the bad things but only Gibbs name by the success and you also left off the two bad Gibbs/Snyder years.[/quote]

Yes there were two bad years, but he inherited a 5-11 team.
What is your point? That Gibbs is the main person to blame for the current issues on current Redskins team? I did say he was partly to blame.
My point was Gibbs2 brought winning and respectability back to the Redskins. That is all.

Re: Where Do You Place the Blame for our Personnel Woes? (Reference to Sally Jenkin's Latest)
 

[IMG]http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa320/vertigo0923/Joe-Pesci---My-Cousin-Vinny--C10038.jpg[/IMG]

Re: Where Do You Place the Blame for our Personnel Woes? (Reference to Sally Jenkin's Latest)
 

[quote=Defensewins;613506]Yes there were two bad years, but he inherited a 5-11 team.
What is your point? That Gibbs is the main person to blame for the current issues on current Redskins team? I did say he was partly to blame.
My point was Gibbs2 brought winning and respectability back to the Redskins. That is all.[/quote]

I should not have made that post because I'm over discussing whats wrong and who is to blame. The only thing we can hope for at this point is that with things hitting rock bottom DS can see whats wrong and start to fix them at the end of the season. Heck, he could show Vinny the door now for what thats worth.

Re: Where Do You Place the Blame for our Personnel Woes? (Reference to Sally Jenkin's Latest)
 

[quote=firstdown;613525]I should not have made that post because I'm over discussing whats wrong and who is to blame. The only thing we can hope for at this point is that with things hitting rock bottom DS can see whats wrong and start to fix them at the end of the season. Heck, he could show Vinny the door now for what thats worth.[/quote]

If he brings in a good GM now the rest of the season can be used to cut the fat.

Re: Where Do You Place the Blame for our Personnel Woes? (Reference to Sally Jenkin's Latest)
 

[quote=firstdown;613525]I should not have made that post because I'm over discussing whats wrong and who is to blame. The only thing we can hope for at this point is that with things hitting rock bottom DS can see whats wrong and start to fix them at the end of the season. Heck, he could show Vinny the door now for what thats worth.[/quote]

You are right, showing Vinny the door now as opposed to the end of the season will not make the team get any worse.
What it might be worth is showing the loyal Redskins fans that Snyder is changing his stubborn ways. To some that is a lot. It might actually help with 2010 season ticket renewals and getting people from chanting sell the team.

Re: Where Do You Place the Blame for our Personnel Woes? (Reference to Sally Jenkin's Latest)
 

Snyder is the one constant who, when he's making decisions, usually isn't doing his due diligence. But it's not all about him, a lot of it is whom he's chosen to hire. He's been surrounded the whole time by a bunch of different people who know the names, but not the backgrounds.

I think Vinny has actually been one of the more competent people making decisions for the Redskins in the past 7 years or so, but he's about the worst possible person to be mediating between the owner and the head coach anyway. In a vacuum, he's a mediocre drafter who is more prudent in free agency than the rest of the people who have been making decisions for the Redskins, but Vinny has never had total autonomy. He's closer to that right now than he's ever been before, but he's a general failure as, "guy-who-is-in-charge-of-most-but-not-all" personnel decisions.

But it hasn't been just those two. It comes back to Snyder, but knowing who is responsible doesn't fix the problem. Gibbs, Saunders, Blache, Spurrier, and even Zorn all got way more say in personnel issues than they should have. Only Gregg Williams consistently helped pluck diamonds-in-the rough off the FA market.

It's worth pointing out that the Dallas Cowboys are a greatly flawed franchise, but there's no question about who is in charge there. They don't always make the best decisions, but they have accountability, which is really the only difference between their FO and ours right now.

Re: Where Do You Place the Blame for our Personnel Woes? (Reference to Sally Jenkin's Latest)
 

Gtripp - thanks for the update. In my opinion even if Vinny is not as responsible as you say he is the only way to truely change the mentality and culture is a wholesale sweeping change from top to bottom. Sydner needs a very strong GM who will not only stand up to him but also have the balls to say things at Redskin Park are not going to be run as usual - we need to change the viewpoint from around the league that the Redskins are a place to come to simply get paid - I am tired of the flashy big free agent signings and the thin depth that occurs as a result. Really we need to sweep out so much of the old, oft injured veterans here and truely commit to starting over - even if it means a couple of years of tough rebuilding. I think it was Tony Dungy that said you can't rebuild only going halfway - you got to do it all the way and that means wholesale turning of the rosters and a commitment to youth. No more firesale trades giving away draft picks for a need because we think we are one player away - we need to start being like the Patriots and trading our players who are approaching 30 to get other teams picks. Now of course with this change in philosphy you need really good scouting and that will of course be part of the change and why Vinny would be shown the door as he is more tuned to free agents over the draft.

By the way you make an excellent point about the Cowboys and ever since Jerry Jones took over and became the GM it has been a long 13 years without a playoff win for them and many more to come until he wises up and does the same thing - so for that matter Jerry please keep up the great job you are doing!

Re: Where Do You Place the Blame for our Personnel Woes? (Reference to Sally Jenkin's Latest)
 

[quote=Mattyk72;613447]For me it boils down to a lack of a focused, long-term plan for building the team. The team always seems to be in "win now" mode when they're clearly not even close. It's all about knowing who you are, where you want to go, and how you intend on getting there.[/quote]
Yep, the instant that something goes wrong Snyder and Vinny close in

Re: Where Do You Place the Blame for our Personnel Woes? (Reference to Sally Jenkin's Latest)
 

[quote=Defensewins;613491]Mr. Snyder - A football franchise first goal should always be field a good team and win a super bowl, not sell jersey's. If you have a good team, the jersey will sell themselves.[/quote]
in business shareholders want it now and they don't want it to stop

it's perfectly ruined a good business world

Re: Where Do You Place the Blame for our Personnel Woes? (Reference to Sally Jenkin's Latest)
 

the buck stops w/ the owner. he'll go out and spend countless millions on free agents but won't do the same for his front office. the only guy that stud up to snyder was joe mendes and he ran him out of the building cause he wasn't on board w/ all the free agent spending.

Re: Where Do You Place the Blame for our Personnel Woes? (Reference to Sally Jenkin's Latest)
 

[quote=Bill B;613567]Gtripp - thanks for the update. In my opinion even if Vinny is not as responsible as you say he is the only way to truely change the mentality and culture is a wholesale sweeping change from top to bottom. Sydner needs a very strong GM who will not only stand up to him but also have the balls to say things at Redskin Park are not going to be run as usual - we need to change the viewpoint from around the league that the Redskins are a place to come to simply get paid - I am tired of the flashy big free agent signings and the thin depth that occurs as a result. Really we need to sweep out so much of the old, oft injured veterans here and truely commit to starting over - even if it means a couple of years of tough rebuilding. I think it was Tony Dungy that said you can't rebuild only going halfway - you got to do it all the way and that means wholesale turning of the rosters and a commitment to youth. No more firesale trades giving away draft picks for a need because we think we are one player away - we need to start being like the Patriots and trading our players who are approaching 30 to get other teams picks. Now of course with this change in philosphy you need really good scouting and that will of course be part of the change and why Vinny would be shown the door as he is more tuned to free agents over the draft.

By the way you make an excellent point about the Cowboys and ever since Jerry Jones took over and became the GM it has been a long 13 years without a playoff win for them and many more to come until he wises up and does the same thing - so for that matter Jerry please keep up the great job you are doing![/quote]

We're not too much better. We've won two playoff games in 15 years? We won't be winning any this year so that makes 16. Like GTripp said AT LEAST Jones puts his name on it. The buck stops w/ him. He doesn't hide behind his puppet and he doesn't hide from the media like a little baby.

Re: Where Do You Place the Blame for our Personnel Woes? (Reference to Sally Jenkin's Latest)
 

We have pretty much ignored the Draft the last ten years, esp our offensive line. We have overpaid for talent that has for the most part not panned out.
We have not had a true qb since Rypien.
We have no real front office leadership who believes (or so it seems) it can run a professional organization like a fantasy football team. Until the front office wakes up we will continue to go through this vicious cycle amd we will become the next Detroit Lions or Cincinati Bengals.

Re: Where Do You Place the Blame for our Personnel Woes? (Reference to Sally Jenkin's Latest)
 

1999 is to blame, the year Danny bought the team. He is DARTH SNYDER!

Re: Where Do You Place the Blame for our Personnel Woes? (Reference to Sally Jenkin's Latest)
 

[quote=Defensewins;613476]Amen.
We went from 5-11 under Spurrier/Snyder and Vinny in 2003 and being the laughing stock of football on the field.
One year later in 2005, Gibbs leads us to 10-6 and the playoffs. That is a short time to turnaround a franchise that was in bad shape.
Gibbs left after the 2007 season of 9-7 and another playoff season, only to one year later under Snyder/Cerratto and Zorn have us 2-4 and we are the laughing stock of the NFL again.
Gibbs made us respectable on the field again. That is all I ask.[/quote]Don't let Gibbs completely off the hook. He traded a 3 and a 4 for B. Lloyd, and another 3 and a 4 for Duckett. That is essentially 4 wasted draft picks that could have been used for O-line depth. Also recall that Archuletta was signed under Gibbs' watch - perhaps THE WORST FA signing in the history of the franchise.

Re: Where Do You Place the Blame for our Personnel Woes? (Reference to Sally Jenkin's Latest)
 

[quote=SouperMeister;613764]Don't let Gibbs completely off the hook. He traded a 3 and a 4 for B. Lloyd, and another 3 and a 4 for Duckett. That is essentially 4 wasted draft picks that could have been used for O-line depth. Also recall that Archuletta was signed under Gibbs' watch - perhaps THE WORST FA signing in the history of the franchise.[/quote]

Who brought in Kendall and Raback?

Re: Where Do You Place the Blame for our Personnel Woes? (Reference to Sally Jenkin's Latest)
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;613769]Who brought in Kendall and Raback?[/quote]I can understand your argument for Rabach contributing to longer term depth on the OL, but Kendall? The guy was mid 30's when we acquired him.

Re: Where Do You Place the Blame for our Personnel Woes? (Reference to Sally Jenkin's Latest)
 

guys its time to stop pointing fingers, the progress of an organization doesn't depend on one or two persons alone, it needs a whole team GL

Re: Where Do You Place the Blame for our Personnel Woes? (Reference to Sally Jenkin's Latest)
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;613479]I'm sick and tired of people bitching about Gibbs II. He came in and did what he could with what he had, he inherited a mess and wanted a quick turn around (I'm sure at Danny's request) which led to some questionable moves. Redskins fans as usual "very impatient" wanted to see quick results and that's the end result. People can't deny that Gibbs II was still the most successful period of the Snyder years.[/quote]

Gibbs 2.0 was out of his element as a coach. Yes we love him, and yes he was better than anything we've seen in a long time, but he wasn't ready to handle the modern NFL. To say otherwise seems to be out of touch. We all revere Joe, but 2.0 was not a stunning success.