thread of reason
 

Only cool heads allowed to post here.

No posts about Ramsey needs to start, Portis is a bust, the playcalling stinks, the ref in the booth needs to be fired, cut this guy, cut that guy, etc.

Call me crazy but I don't think we're far from turning this thing around. I think guys are pressing a bit right now. They're not 100% comfortable in the offensive system and they're thinking too much about assignments/responsibilities and not just playing football.

The first quarter of the season is over and I know 1-3 isn't pretty, but, we still have 3/4 of the season to go. If we can improve just one game per quarter we can finish still finish 10-6. There's still alot of ball to be played, and alot of room for improvement.

Cutting or benching guys and flip flopping starting QB's isn't the answer and Gibbs isn't going to panic and pull crap like this, so let's just forget about that nonsense and worry about the team mastering the system and improving the best they can week to week.

I think they're a season away from the playoffs. They'll probably spend a good portion of this year adjusting to the new systems, this can probably go for the coaches as well.

You're crazy!! :laughing-
I also think we're going to turn things around BUT it's got to start with the important decisons in games that are killing us. You can't tell me we've been making good challenges these last two games. Two weeks in a row we lose IN PART to no timeouts against the Cowboys and no timeouts to call for a challenge against Cleveland. Portis, Coles, Gardner, the D are all going to be fine. However, I don't think it's rash to question Brunell's ability at QB.

I feel criticism is deserved. This was a really, really tough loss for the skins and I'm curious how we'll react when we come back.

Brunell has played well in one game, against the Cowboys. Otherwise he's been mediocre at best.

The season isn't over, but this looks just like Spurriers team with all the mistakes et al. I want to see us crush the Ravens!

I think the offensive line is in more trouble than we think. Jansen's loss is looking more and more devastating as the games go by. Dockery is still miles away from his supposed 'potential' -- if it's really even there. He, along with Raymer and Thomas are simply not dominating the middle of the line the way I thought they would be. Samuels seems to be better with pass blocking, but if you think about it, there's no consistent control of the line of scrimmage, there's no long, sustained drives that's battering an opponent into submission, and they can't even muster up enough to put a team like the Cleveland Browns away.

Couple that with these turnovers from our star players, Coles and Portis, and it's no wonder why we're 1-3. Brunnell could be playing better, certainly. But he's far from the sole reason for our current position.

I hate to say it, but a big game every now and then from Rod Gardner and the complete letdown we're getting from Coles leads me to believe we're going to need more playmakers at that position. If Coles is injured then get someone else in there. These two just aren't getting the job done. They were more effective under Spurrier if you can believe that.

1. I think it's reasonable to be upset about a loss to Dallas and a loss to the friggin BROWNS!

2. I think it's reasonable to be upset about Mark Brunell's play this season.

3. I think it's reasonable to be upset with the turnovers.

4. I think it's reasonable to be upset with the poor clock management (ill-chosen timeouts have been really hurting us this year).

That said, it is true that many of us (myself included) have been too critical of every mistake. There are going to be dropped balls and fumbles. There are going to be incompletions etc.

BUT, there are some real causes for concern.

#1 The running game has not been nearly as good as anyone expected.

#2 The clock-management has been atrocious the past two weeks.

#3 The offense as a whole is completely screwed up.

#4 Mark Brunell is not nearly as good as advertised.

The only changes I'd make right now would be are: #1 Mark Brunell and #2 working constantly getting the offense lined up in time to not have to take all these timeouts. I don't think anyone would dispute #2, and as for #1 that's just my opinion. I don't think anyone can say that asking for a different QB is crazy given Brunell's performance the last 4 weeks. I can see room for arguments for Brunell to stay in, but I by no means think that Brunell has earned his stripes (in a 'Skins uniform). REMEMBER everyone, it's a difference of opinion, I'm asking for Ramsey to come in, not for someone to kill your mother.

Can't say that the offensive line has played badly minus Janson, although it would help for him to be in there. I think Brunell has had loads of time for the most part, and knows how to get rid of the ball when he doesn't have time. Certainly Brunell hasnt' played like Joe Montana or Brett Farve, but he hasn't played badly. Looking back at today's game, Brunell wasn't what lost the game...it was turnovers and too many stupid penalities. Eliminating the penalities and the turnovers can be all of the difference in a game. No turnovers or penalities committed by us in the past three games and we could have possibly been at least 3 -1 if not 4 - 0. We are at the point where eliminating just a few mistakes can have this team back on track. Look at the number of points we lost by in the last three games:

Giants: 6 points
Cowboys: 3 points
Browns: 4 points

We lost very winnable games, it wasn't that we were over powered by any means. It is frustrating...probably more so because we know that this team is good enough to be one of the top teams in the league...and I believe Gibbs is just as frustrated because he knows this as well. It is going to take some time...and just forget about all the na-sayers that is going to say that Gibbs is washed up. We all know better than that! Heck..if Dick Vermil can come back and take a team to Super Bowl greatness...we all know Gibbs can do the samething. Patience.

Matty tried to set the tone for this thread which was let us reason together. But some of our fellow members aren't haven't it. I share the skinsguy view of this team being at the point where by eliminating a few mistakes can have this team back on track. Remember three seasons ago we were 0-5 and won the next five games. One thing about me that people who hate the Redskins say is that I'm a die hard (Wearing a Redskins jersey monday morning whether we won or loss) kind of fan. I know we are family and we air out our frustrations with the team but know is not the time to make drastic changes because it will only places blame on certain individuals rather than the play calling and execution.

I think that I am one of the more levelheaded skins fans that post on this site. However, I have had it with Portis already. I can't take his fumbles anymore! A RB that fumbles is absolutely useless! Right now I can not stand him and I cringe whenever he touches the ball! They clearly would have won today without that fumble. A fumble on the first play of the second half is absolutely devastating. I think that he has been the biggest factor in 2 losses so far. Against NY he had one fumble returned for a TD and I think he fumbled on the criticle 1st possesion of the 3rd quarter. That's 2 fumbles to start the 3rd quarter. Your first pssession in the second half is arguably the most important of the game. SO not only is he fumbling but he is also picking the most inopportune time. I can't stand it. I wish they had a good enough backup so they could sit his ass on the bench!

A couple of our positives from last year were McCants and Rock. I'd like to see them a little more involved in the offense. I think they can be factored into the offense without significantly changing the philosophy of the offense.

Now that I've cooled down, I think that the Offense needs to click. D gets tired after a while if they're on the field all day. I think once the O begins to click, we are going to be a very dangerous team.

I agree with you. While I too am disappointed in the start of our season, this "doom and gloom" almost rivals my Yankees Fan Board I belong too. Only they vent like this after each of the 61 losses the Yanks had this year. Many people are turning into "mini-Steinbrenners" here. Now is not the time to cut, bench, fire, trade, maim, kill, or destroy anyone on our team just yet.

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Only cool heads allowed to post here.

No posts about Ramsey needs to start, Portis is a bust, the playcalling stinks, the ref in the booth needs to be fired, cut this guy, cut that guy, etc.

Call me crazy but I don't think we're far from turning this thing around. I think guys are pressing a bit right now. They're not 100% comfortable in the offensive system and they're thinking too much about assignments/responsibilities and not just playing football.

The first quarter of the season is over and I know 1-3 isn't pretty, but, we still have 3/4 of the season to go. If we can improve just one game per quarter we can finish still finish 10-6. There's still alot of ball to be played, and alot of room for improvement.

Cutting or benching guys and flip flopping starting QB's isn't the answer and Gibbs isn't going to panic and pull crap like this, so let's just forget about that nonsense and worry about the team mastering the system and improving the best they can week to week.[/QUOTE]

Charles Mann brought up something very interesting in the post game show today.

He said that in all his years under Gibbs, they NEVER lost to the TB Bucs. The Bucs were terrible, but before every game against them, JG would talk to his team about how the Bucs weren't that bad and that they could be beaten by them. He said that they won all those games because every player on that team believed 100% in Gibbs and didn't believe the Bucs were a pushover. He said the guys went out there and gave 100% and PLAYED FOOTBALL. He then went on to say that this team is not believing 100% in JG yet and that they need to go out there and just do their jobs and play football. He said that the players who don't believe ('prima donas', I think he said) will be shipped out and that the ones that stay will become a great team.

Just some calm words for this calm thread. :)

You all say that it's not time to panic. I say, when is? 1-4, 1-5? They're going to lose to the Ravens if they play anything like this. I don't think we'll get any better on a Ray Lewis lead team. So, please, enlighten me. When can we finally realize that Brunell has lost it? There's a reason he doesn't start in Jacksonville anymore...the same reason he shouldn't start here.

[QUOTE=jdlea]You all say that it's not time to panic. I say, when is? When can we finally realize that Brunell has lost it?[/QUOTE]

Panic when Joe Gibbs decides that he wasn't cut out to coach....(not gonna happen!) Even if this season doesn't turn out to be the magic season of standards that all the critics say Gibbs has to reach in order to avoid being labeled "washed up" as a coach doesn't mean that Gibbs' return was in vein. If anything I've learned is a Redskins team coached by Joe Gibbs is a team that doesn't panic; a team that realizes that it might have to weed out some of the players who chose not to believe in the system to get the right players that want to be Redskins. Were you old enough to remember the season we had after we destroyed the Broncos in the SB? We went what....7-9? The next two years we went to 10-6 and the following year we were in the SB. Once Gibbs gets the right players (which I think there are some missing links) the skins will be back.

On the topic of Brunell..I saw nothing of his performance today that indicated that he's lost it. WRs and tightends (namely Walter Rasby) dropped catchable passes or couldn't get open. I mean if putting in Santa Ramsey will help matters then by all means...but he's not ready yet..

[QUOTE=SUNRA]Matty tried to set the tone for this thread which was let us reason together. But some of our fellow members aren't haven't it.[/QUOTE]

Does letting us reason together mean I accept your view?

It's time to panic mid way through NEXT SEASON if things are still not working. I'm serious. This is what an 8-8/7-9, readjusting to the coaches, players, NFL-type season looks like. And, as was pointed out, the losses were by 6, 3, and 4 points. It sucks. I hate it. But that's how it is right now.

As for Brunnel, he plays until Ramsey is ready. And Gibbs decides when that is. The offense isn't clicking, but Brunnel didn't put the ball on the ground; Portis and Coles did. Remember, Ramsey threw three absolutely lame INTs in the 1-1/2 QUARTERS he was out there last time. I say give Brunnell gets until the bye week to turn it around.

The o-line is a work in progress. Did they give up any sacks this week (I don't remember, maybe there was 1?). Against Dallas, there were 5. So that's better. Look, it's not just empty talk that it takes time to get an o-line working together. ANd it takes time for an RB and a line to get going. Since the o-line is the heart of a Gibbs team, until they work it out, it's not going to be pretty. We should still have won these games. But let's not break up the team!

The time management stuff is all about learning the formations and calling the plays efficiently. Again, just the sort of stuff that takes time to learn to do right. Yeah, it kills me to see it. But it'll come. Complex offense+new personel+Gibb's getting used to play calling again= bad time outs. oy.

I'm really not trying to be argumentative. I too would like to air out my opinion. I don't knock you for having your opinion and neither should you knock me for mine.

Calling my idea crap or implying that some people just won't listen to reason isn't appropriate. I love this site and I like everyone on it. But don't shut down debate. Am I wrong for saying that much?

I like Ramsey and I think he's going to be a good QB if he sticks with Gibbs and his coaching staff, but you hit on something in your first post that I believe the coaches need to work out and not the QB. The timing of lining up the O-line. Gibbs' offense is largely based on audibles at the line and different shifts of formation. I still have the SB with Rypien and Co on tape and I could tell ya that in that SB year, the Skins shifted SO much...nowadays the team doesn't have THAT much time to shift unless it goes to no huddle ALL the time. With that said, what Gibbs might have to do is go to a more modified version of his formations --- it's a feeling out phase for Gibbs getting used to the reduced play clock. Brunell hasn't been spectacular I know..but hey..his WRs are going to have to catch the ball and hold on to it..and they are going to have to get open down field! Brunell had to throw the ball away several times because of coverage.

My experience has been think all ideas are welcome on this site. But for God's sake, some guys can't even have enough character to respect the request of the guy that started THIS ONE thread. This was supposed to be a more rational/positive thread. jdlea and the others: There are PLENTY of other threads for you to bitch and moan in. Or you could start your own.

Anyhow, todays game was very disappointing. Looks like it will take a little farther into the season than I thought for Gibbs and company to get this team (and themselves) shaped up. But I am still totally confident it will happen this season. We won't win the Super Bowl this year, and may not even make the playoffs this year. (But I still have faith we will!) It would be nice if we did, but Redskin fans need to get over this idea of annual housecleaning, and learn some patience. This is a proven staff, and they WILL bring us to the promised land!!

I'm in favor of analyzing our disastrous 1-3 start "reasonably," but let's remember that after the game, Joe Gibbs called this situation "a horrible time to be going through." And he's exactly right. We have had a horrible start and the players had better shape up quick. As longtime Redskins fans know, Gibbs cannot STAND fumbles and penalties. That's what makes our play so puzzling--this doesn't look like a Gibbs team at all. Perhaps that will come only with time.

Here's my postive input. This time last year the Pats were 2-2 getting drubbed by the Bills and Spurrierskins. They have since won 18 in a row, more wins than the Bills and the Skins have combined for a couple of years. Now, I'm not saying we're going to the SB but when we stop making simple mistakes that I believe are the result of a team adjusting to a new coach and a coach who hasn't been in Football for a decade, we will be a competetive team and a future playoff power. I think our D stands up with the Pats and I think our offense has more talent. We just need time to get it together.

I have to say people are moaning saying we were better last year but that was year two in the Spurrier eara and yet with esentially the same line Ramsey was being pummeled on a weekly basis and we were setting records for the number of penelties in a game.

The question is what we have to do to change now . None of the games we have lost have been out of reach and it does seem that players are not totally buying into the Gibbs scheme or they are not quite on the same page.

Comments about our run blocking are justified as Jansen was the run blocker on the line and Samuels the better pass blocker but listening to Portis is the running game seems bland and predicable right now, something needs to be done to mix up the schemes and maybe subbing him more to get a change of pace from Betts or Rock when he is struggling.

The thing is I still have faith, we have seen worse, it is heart wrenchingly disapointing to see us loose a games like this but it was heart wrenchingly disapointing to see us loose to the cowboys in thier 1-15 season but it happens.

My heart says Arrggghhh!, my head says we're learning. Anyone in coaching knows that sometimes you can have the most talented team in the league, but until they work out the chemistry, it will take time and hard work to get it right.

I don't think anyone is playing badly, I just think many are playing within themselves (Portis, Brunnel, Coles, OL, Taylor). Sooner or later one or more will have a break out game, or even just one play, that will set the tone. Then we'll se improvement.

All I think Taylor needs is one devastating hit over the middle or a savvy INT (for a TD please). Coles needs a TD. Portis needs a 150 to 250 yard game (w/o/fumbles) and Brunnel needs to be able to rely on the running game.

Our total points diff. this year is -7. Anyone tell me what it was in Schotty and Spurriers first 4 games? I got a feeling it compares favourably. We haven't lost a game by more than a TD so far, and that says we are in it. And you have to be in it to win it. (Cliches off)

What makes this a horrible time for the Redskins and fans is that the expectations for the team were unrealistic. If you reset your expectations, things are different.

We have some real difficulties now. I actually think its kind of fun to see how we are going to adapt to the circumstances with the personnel we have. To me a successful season isn't in the win loss column but how you deal with adversity.

I will say this - winning Super Bowl 17 was a lot more fun because of the 0-5 the season before. Everyone could see how the team worked so hard to overcome the challenges and it meant a lot more than if we had just won won won without any problems.

We have the best coaching staff on Earth, and that isn't changed by the occasional mistake. We have a solid core of players who are a super foundation for us. I am so grateful that Joe Gibbs is back. We are on our way.

The wise man said, "Patience is all the strength a man needs."

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Only cool heads allowed to post here.

No posts about Ramsey needs to start, Portis is a bust, the playcalling stinks, the ref in the booth needs to be fired, cut this guy, cut that guy, etc.

Call me crazy but I don't think we're far from turning this thing around. I think guys are pressing a bit right now. They're not 100% comfortable in the offensive system and they're thinking too much about assignments/responsibilities and not just playing football.

The first quarter of the season is over and I know 1-3 isn't pretty, but, we still have 3/4 of the season to go. If we can improve just one game per quarter we can finish still finish 10-6. There's still alot of ball to be played, and alot of room for improvement.

Cutting or benching guys and flip flopping starting QB's isn't the answer and Gibbs isn't going to panic and pull crap like this, so let's just forget about that nonsense and worry about the team mastering the system and improving the best they can week to week.[/QUOTE]

It's no secret I am high on Ramsey, I also know that unless Brunell get's hurt, Ramsey won't see the field, the problem I have is, Ramsey has the least amount of expierence, and the least amount of work in this new system, 1 that a seasoned veteran like Brunell is having difficulties mastering, and he's judged more critically than Brunell, I also know bringing in Ramsey now doesn't mean instant victory for us, he will have to go through the same growing pain's as Brunell, but he showed us against the Giant's that he can get the ball up and down the field in a hurry, yes he may make a mistake here or there, he's young, but he also gives us a better opportunity to score point's, Brunell was brought here for his expierence, but he's really just like a rookie out there because of the fact he has to learn a whole new system, I think the learning curve would be the same for Ramsey, and Ramsey's upside is much greater than Brunell's, Brunell was alway's a good playmaker, I never looked at him as a great passer, and with his leg's giving way to age, his playmaking abilities are on the way down, will he get better than he is now? Yes, but is he worth the effort at his age? Not considering he's 1 and 3 so far, I thought that was why we brought him here, to step in and win immediatly? With that said, I don't see any reason why this team won't, or can't, turn this thing around quickly, we have to much talent.

I know I don't post here often, but here are a couple of points I want to make as a long-time Skins fan...

1. As others have said, this is a rough time and there are a lot of problems, but patience and perseverance are the answer, not quick fixes.

2. We have a lot of problems, but they are fixable and we have already fixed a number of problems this season, such as botched center-quarterback exchanges. I have every confidence that we can work through these, too.

3. One of the big problems I think we're facing is that we all underestimated how bad the Skins have been [B]as a[/B] [B]team[/B] and caught up in the hype of how well certain players have performed in the past and in other places. A collection of good individual players doesn't make a good team. During the first Gibbs era, we rarely had the best players, but we usually had the best team. Building a real team, not to mention a winning team, takes time and effort, and that's what we're suffering through now. Despite the difficult slogging ahead, I'd still bet on at least 8-8 and a deep playoff run next season.

4. As for Portis, I think he is still learning a system that requires a back to think and wait for holes rather than just zoom off. That takes time. And, look at his age! The guy is a kid. Given the new system, I'd consider him practically a rookie. Now, that doesn't mean that he may not need to "ride the pine" a bit if he can't get the fumbling under control (and the fumbling seems to me to be related to his mishandling of the running scheme). However, I'm still glad we have and still expect good things from him.

5. As for Brunell, I do agree that he doesn't seem to be the same quarterback he used to be in Jacksonville. I think he's reached the point in his career where he may need to make some adjustments in his play to meet his ability. I also think he's still trying to master a new system along with the rest of the offense. Benching him would, I think, risk sending the wrong message to the team and wouldn't be Gibbs' style. However, it might be a good idea to start working Ramsey into some games to get him ready in case a change has to be made later.

6. If our defense is as good as it is with Arrington out, injuries on the DL and Taylor still playing like a rookie (mixing the bad with the good), how good will they be when we're healthy and Taylor has a bit more experience?

i do think your nuts
 

even if were a season away from making some stide. were in the mentality at washington of 1 step foreward 2 steps back. we over payed for free agents again. i never wanted portis, i think we would have been better w/ draft picks. tell you know trde samuels in the offseason cause he'll eat up what room under the cap we will have...... until VINNY CERRATO goes dont expect anything from the redskins.... i'm begining 2 think its not the couches its VINNY. remember our only playoff team in the last 10 years was w/o CERRATO ..... maybe its not synder or the coaches its VINNY and his notalent picking GM skills.

I agree
 

[QUOTE=skinsguy] Look at the number of points we lost by in the last three games:

Giants: 6 points
Cowboys: 3 points
Browns: 4 points

We lost very winnable games, it wasn't that we were over powered by any means. I believe Gibbs is just as frustrated because he knows this as well. It is going to take some time.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this part of the above! We cut down & eliminate TO's! Turnovers and Timeouts! We win!

We run the ball more along with the above! We win! Simple formula to fix! We are not a bad 1-3 team!

Nobody believed me when I predicted 8-8! I'm not panicked! Just practical! I've seen too many games over the past 38 years!

I guess some people have missed the point of this thread.

oh well, sigh

Let's get back to putting together our weekly cut list!

[QUOTE=Ramseyfan]Does letting us reason together mean I accept your view?[/QUOTE]

No it doesn't mean accepting anything. It simply means to consider the positive things that have happened with this team and not call out every player or staff member that made a mistake. You would agree that there are enough threads on this website to vent your anger. On this thread, it was simply asked not to do that.

[QUOTE=Ramseyfan]I'm really not trying to be argumentative. I too would like to air out my opinion. I don't knock you for having your opinion and neither should you knock me for mine.

Calling my idea crap or implying that some people just won't listen to reason isn't appropriate. I love this site and I like everyone on it. But don't shut down debate. Am I wrong for saying that much?[/QUOTE]

I don't know who called your opinions crap, but I think this thread was to be for the purpose of considering what progress we have made rather than what we haven't done. There are enough threads here to express your anger with this season.

[QUOTE=juggernaunt]even if were a season away from making some stide. were in the mentality at washington of 1 step foreward 2 steps back. we over payed for free agents again. i never wanted portis, i think we would have been better w/ draft picks. tell you know trde samuels in the offseason cause he'll eat up what room under the cap we will have...... until VINNY CERRATO goes dont expect anything from the redskins.... i'm begining 2 think its not the couches its VINNY. remember our only playoff team in the last 10 years was w/o CERRATO ..... maybe its not synder or the coaches its VINNY and his notalent picking GM skills.[/QUOTE]

Looks like you totally missed the point of this thread. Not surprising that you don't begin to understand what it takes to develop a team under new management. (One key ingredient is PATIENCE!!) If you had been controlling things in New England a few short years ago, you would have run Belichick out of town along with half of the team that is now the powerhouse of the NFL. Real nice job.

Matty, please save the above post so we can have a big chuckle next year.

[QUOTE=juggernaunt]i'm begining 2 think its not the couches its VINNY.[/QUOTE]

Thank you juggernaut. Finally! I've been saying it all along to those of you demanding we get new furniture...it's not the couches!

hey if people are going to have fun with my typos. I might as well have fun with typos as well :D

I like how during the offseason we praise the moves we make, then once the season starts it's the personnel moves that are the problem and not the lack of execution on the field.

Why is any of this Vinny's fault? Gibbs hand picked guys like Portis and Brunell. So forgive me if I fail to see where Vinny is at fault here.

I agree, Matty. I don't think Vinny has final say on any of the personnel moves anyway. He's just a glorified personal assistant these days

OK I will throw out a positive, Ron Warner has looked outstanding, he is quickly becoming our best linemen, I no he went down with an injury twice during the game, does anyone know his status?

And for the record, Gibb's has final say on all decision's, not just GM, Cerratto is nothing more than a figure head, who bounces idea's off Gibb's, Gibb's is responsible for all our off season moves, Brunell, and Portis, incl.

warner and pierce have shown up... lemar and taylor, not so much right now...

Ynot?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]I like how during the offseason we praise the moves we make.

Why is any of this Vinny's fault? Gibbs hand picked guys like Portis and Brunell. [/QUOTE]

I didn't praise the Brunell move. I blame the Brunell move!
I thought it was a bad move then.

I think we got value for value for Portis/Champ, but I didn't praise it! It thought Betts would be able to do it without a Portis! I still think that!

Ynot blame cousin vinnie? He is joined to LDS at the hip & thigh!

[QUOTE=SUNRA]I don't know who called your opinions crap, but I think this thread was to be for the purpose of considering what progress we have made rather than what we haven't done. There are enough threads here to express your anger with this season.[/QUOTE]
Well Ramsey fan has a good point on mostly everything, but let me be the one that says his opions on Brunell is CRAP. He has played within the system. Typically avoids the sack and the interception. Lets see 1 interception in 3 1/2 games. The play calling has been up and down. What has he done that is so terribly wrong. Please show me somthing other then he sucks, be at the very least annaltical.