What does Vinny Cerrato do?
 

So based on random articles, that are probably based on little other then heresay (like everything else going on right now), it seems that the major issue between Dan Snyder and Gregg Williams that has delayed (what seems inevitable) Gregg Williams becoming Head Coach , is that Gregg Williams wants a GM brought in and perhaps wants Vinny Cerrato to leave.

Well I happen to be of the opinion that Danny should reliquish complete control of personel decisions to Williams. This is based on the fact that, before Gibbs, Danny and Vinny did't have the best track record on personnel decision. But once Gibbs was given complete control he brought in personnel to help scout players, and aloud his coordinators to bring in their own guys to their respective units. Seemngly, this has been working well because we have begun not only building through the draft rather then free agency, but also been fairly successful with our draft picks even in the late rounds. On top of all that, Gregg Williams seems to have fared the best with his scouting decisions (minus Archuletta of course). With that in mind I have to think that the best thing for this team to maintain continuity, is to make Williams head coach and allow him to have the final word on all personnel decisions.

My cousin (RobH4413 by the way), is of the mind that the system is working the way it is right now, and that we should bring in William but that he should not be allowed to neither bring in a GM nor can Cerrato. In his opinion, if this thing is working the way it is then nothing should be changed, that Cerrato being a part of the system should stay, and that bringing in a GM could screw this whole thing up.

Generally the two of us agree about this, except when it comes to the Cerrato/new GM issue. Our main disagreement is that I feel Cerrato is an expendable part of this system, whereas he believes that he is not. I have argued that it is unclear what Cerrato actually does, and that it seems to me that while he has been here, he has only been a YES man for Danny, giving him more leverage over oaches when it comes to personnel decisions. Obviously when Gibbs was here Danny would concede to him out of respect, but I doubt he will do that for Gregg Williams. In fact I think that this discrepency about Cerrato/ new GM is proof of that. In the end I feel like Cerrato will be a detriment to the overall structure of this organization going forward without Gibbs. RobH4413, has argued that I am basing this on very little, and that Cerrato must indeed by vital to the personnell decisions ("why else would Gibbs keep him here?"). And I agree that I know nothing concrete on Cerrato's position in this organization.

So I implore you, Help us settle this arguement. WTF does Cerrato do for the Redskins? How valuable is he? Should Danny allow him to have more of a say with personnel decisions with Gibbs gone? Or Should Williams be allowed to bring in a GM?

Re: What does Vinny Cerrato do?
 

How has there been a delay when he's been on 3 interviews and they have yet to hear from a minority candidate?

Re: What does Vinny Cerrato do?
 

I implore you to write shorter message next time.

Re: What does Vinny Cerrato do?
 

If Dan Snyder wanted he could have set it up that Williams would take over without having to compete for the job, thus NO interviews would have to take place, thus the Rooney Rule would not be in affect.

Re: What does Vinny Cerrato do?
 

[QUOTE=WillH;408144]If Dan Snyder wanted he could have set it up that Williams would take over without having to compete for the job, thus NO interviews would have to take place, thus the Rooney Rule would not be in affect.[/QUOTE]

Why not just interview and have the best man win the job? That just happens to be GW.

Re: What does Vinny Cerrato do?
 

[QUOTE=Skinny Tee;408142]I implore you to write shorter message next time.[/QUOTE]
LOL........

Re: What does Vinny Cerrato do?
 

I think a lot of the argument here on the site has a lot to do with getting a GM.

To answer your question Will, I think Vinny has been stellar in handling the cap. He's banked on the CBA to raise, and so far he's been spot on the money. Give credit where credit is due...

I wonder what else his responsibilities are, and actually think this is a pretty good thread to help clarify to everyone... so we don't have random shouts of, "We need a GM!", all over the place. I understand that's not how your approaching this, but I think over 90% of the people have no idea what they're taking about when they cry aimlessly for Vinny's head.

I also admit ignorance. I don't know all of Vinny's responsibilities. I'm fairly certain he helps scout, weighs in on the draft and any general personnel issues... but beyond that I don't know.

Re: What does Vinny Cerrato do?
 

I think Will H is on to something here. Danny won't give the job to GW because GW wants a setup that Danny is not willing to provide (GM, Full control etc...) whatever it may be... So Danny is going outside to find a candate that is willing to accept Dannys terms w/ no arguement... just to slap GW in the face. In the end I think Danny's going to beat GW into submission and GW is going to agree to terms that he's not 100% satisified with because (i hope) Danny can't find someone willing to bend to his demands... ( hopefully GW gets what he wants and this is not the case)... coach for a year, get frustrated and tell Danny to F-off and go get a HC position somewhere else on his terms and excell tremendiously.... Man, I hope i'm wrong and GW gets exactly what he wants but if that was the case, he'd have the job already. This sucks.

Re: What does Vinny Cerrato do?
 

He is similar to McKay in Atlanta now. He answers to Snyder and controls the financial well-being of the team. When Danny (or Gibbs or GW or whoever) decides he needs a player it's up to Vinny to make it work.

Re: What does Vinny Cerrato do?
 

[QUOTE=RobH4413;408150]I also admit ignorance. I don't know all of Vinny's responsibilities. I'm fairly certain he helps scout, weighs in on the draft and any general personnel issues... but beyond that I don't know.[/QUOTE]

I don't think anyone outside of Redskins Park knows precisely what Vinny does. We know he helps scout FAs and draft prospects, but beyond that we know squat. We don't know whether he supported or opposed the Duckett or Lloyd trades, or the acquisition of guys like Marcus Washington or Randy Thomas. That's precisely why I can't understand why people lay all, or most, of the blame for bad FO decisions at his feet. It's popular to find a scapegoat for any bad FO moves, but I don't think it's fair in the absence of additional information.

Re: What does Vinny Cerrato do?
 

I think Vinny's most important function here is to let The Danny win at racquetball.

Re: What does Vinny Cerrato do?
 

As I understand it, essentially you've got Louis Riddick leading a team of scouts that research and target pro players (NFL, CFL, AFL) and then Scott Campbell leads the team that does the same for the college players. And Vinny oversees both groups, participates in the latters stages of player evaluation, makes suggestions based on their findings, and essentially serves as a filter of information to ownership (and Gibbs when he was here).

But they supposedly give Riddick/Campbell pretty much carte blanche, not sure I'm using the term right actually but Snyder and Cerrato usually go off their recommendations without much pushback.

And the other key player is Eric Schaeffer, who handles the money.

Re: What does Vinny Cerrato do?
 

I hear Eric Schaeffer is one smart cookie. Or if you live in Boston, he's smaat.

Re: What does Vinny Cerrato do?
 

[QUOTE=12thMan;408192]I hear Eric Schaeffer is one smart cookie. Or if you live in Boston, he's smaat.[/QUOTE]

One of my bosses here worked with him at IMG, said he's "fuckin' brilliant" Could easily run a team, could be Commissioner even.

Re: What does Vinny Cerrato do?
 

I sometimes wonder if Vinny Cerato is there as an excuse to let Dan Synder make decisions in regards to personel, since a lot of us got nervous after the first few years of Dan Synder making decisions on his own. In other words when we sign a player the credit goes to Vinny Cerato and Dan Synder rather then Dan Synder making decisions on his own.

Metaphor: Its kind of like Synder going to court with a lawyer as opposed to an average Joe representing himself in a felony case.

On a side note I'm pro-Dan Synder, I love the guy and personally woulnd't want anyone else to own the Redskins short of Joe Gibbs.

Re: What does Vinny Cerrato do?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;408195]One of my bosses here worked with him at IMG, said he's "fuckin' brilliant" Could easily run a team, could be Commissioner even.[/quote]

Can't remember where, but I've heard at least twice he's really the brains behind the whole Snyder, Cerrato, formerly Joe Gibbs three-headed monster.

Re: What does Vinny Cerrato do?
 

Schaeffer is the cap guy who keeps us out of cap hell.

Re: What does Vinny Cerrato do?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;408184]As I understand it, essentially you've got Louis Riddick leading a team of scouts that research and target pro players (NFL, CFL, AFL) and then Scott Campbell leads the team that does the same for the college players. And Vinny oversees both groups, participates in the latters stages of player evaluation, makes suggestions based on their findings, and essentially serves as a filter of information to ownership (and Gibbs when he was here).

But they supposedly give Riddick/Campbell pretty much carte blanche, not sure I'm using the term right actually but Snyder and Cerrato usually go off their recommendations without much pushback.

And the other key player is Eric Schaeffer, who handles the money.[/quote]

Okay, thanks for some clarification on this.

So, if this is the way things are structured what problem could Gregg Williams have with Cerrato? Why would he want a GM to come in, and what would that mean for the current setup?

BTW, sorry for the length of my original post, I just wanted to be as clear as possible on what I was trying to understand. I wasn't sure if this was thread worthy, but I asked a similar question in another thread and got no response. Also this debate with Rob has gone on for a little while now and was going nowhere because of lack of understanding, So I just wanted to push the discussion forward a little bit.

Re: What does Vinny Cerrato do?
 

What a GM would mean is a great question, because no one really knows. That's why I always say the "We need a GM" argument carries little weight because no one can really say what that would mean.

The prolbem with Vinny is really this: No one likes him. Almost to a man (and woman), every person I've talked to who works/worked with him says the same thing. "Smart guy. Knows what he's doing. But he's hard to like."

Honestly, it's the weirdest thing. No one can ever really tell me why. Best I can gather is that no one really trusts him.

But there's one person who does...and that's all that matters. Actually I don't even know how much Snyder trusts him entirely.

Re: What does Vinny Cerrato do?
 

Quite the enigma, that Mr. Cerrato.

He kind of looks like a rat... that's why no-one likes him.

I'm on the "aint broke, don't fix" band wagon. As fans, it looks as if we don't really know entirely what he does. So either arguments, for or against VC, carry little weight.

It is what it is.

That pisses me off.

Re: What does Vinny Cerrato do?
 

Interesting. I guess that leads us nowhere really. There are only two ways of looking at this:

1. If Vinny "Know's what he's doing," who cares if "he's hard to like." And in that case you would have to side with Snyder. If it is continuity he wants then the best option is to keep things in the FO the way they are, AND make Williams head coach.

2. If Vinny is so disliked and hard to trust, then why should any head coach be forced to work with him. For an organization to work the heads have to be able to work together. You may not need to like someone to work with them, but you certainly need to trust them. And in this case you would have to side with Williams. He should be able to set things up in a way that he is comfortable (with as little change as possible for continuity's sake) so that he can manage this team as best as possible.

It is hard to determine which side to take on this. I guess the first option seems to be the most logical, but we would hate to see major turmoil the next couple of seasons because these guys can't work together. All and all I hope that they work things out, other wise we are looking at one of two other less appealing scenarios:

1. Williams makes FO changes, which could disrupt continuity.

2. Someone else is named head coach, which could disrupt continuity.

Of course any of these options could pass or fail the test of time, so I guess this is a moot point. Thanks for indulging me.

Re: What does Vinny Cerrato do?
 

I would suppose that anyone who is viewed, rightly or wrongly, as a "yes man" who has the bosses ear is going to be disliked. IMO, we as fans do not really know what is going on behind the curtain, but many of us view Vinny as a "yes man" and, therefore, blame him for whatever blunders our FO makes.

Re: What does Vinny Cerrato do?
 

Ah yes then there was Vinny. What does he do....? Besides kiss Dans ASS, anyones guess.

Re: What does Vinny Cerrato do?
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan_nn;408263]Ah yes then there was Vinny. What does he do....? Besides kiss Dans ASS, anyones guess.[/QUOTE]

I think SS broke down his general duties pretty well. But, as you and others noted, it's far from clear as to exactly which decisions/recommendations he made.

Re: What does Vinny Cerrato do?
 

Vinny manages the cap, helps negotiate contracts, and kisses Danny's big white ass. He's a money guy. We need a personel guy, a bottom line football talent evaluator with the authority and backbone to stand up to Dan. This person is called a General Manager.

The fact that Vinny and Danny are the ones who are in total control of the future of this franchise scares me, and it should scare you too. If they give the Head Coaching job to someone outside of the oganization, who comes in, cleans house and starts rebuilding, all because their egos were to big to let GW question their collective genius, God help us.

Re: What does Vinny Cerrato do?
 

[quote=Moseley_in_the_snow;408280]Vinny manages the cap, helps negotiate contracts, and kisses Danny's big white ass. He's a money guy. We need a personel guy, a bottom line football talent evaluator with the authority and backbone to stand up to Dan. This person is called a General Manager.

The fact that Vinny and Danny are the ones who are in total control of the future of this franchise scares me, and it should scare you too. If they give the Head Coaching job to someone outside of the oganization, who comes in, cleans house and starts rebuilding, all because their egos were to big to let GW question their collective genius, God help us.[/quote]
I've seen alott of coaches clean house and the team was much better after all was said and done. If you really think that Snyder is going to let that happen right now then we have to look at what Gibbs said and figure out who was elling the truth.

Re: What does Vinny Cerrato do?
 

Someone else, I won't say who (Touchdown! Washington Redskins!), also told me that Cerrato was extremely close to Snyder's father (who many suspect was the real catalyst behind a lot of personnel moves around say...2000), and he suspects part of why Snyder won't get rid of Cerrato is that it'd be like firing his own dad. The theory is a bit out there, but I suppose not entirely.

Re: What does Vinny Cerrato do?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;408289]Someone else, I won't say who (Touchdown! Washington Redskins!), also told me that Cerrato was extremely close to Snyder's father (who many suspect was the real catalyst behind a lot of personnel moves around say...2000), and he suspects part of why Snyder won't get rid of Cerrato is that it'd be like firing his own dad. The theory is a bit out there, but I suppose not entirely.[/quote]


SS is down with Larry Micheal. Or Frank Herzog?

Re: What does Vinny Cerrato do?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;408289]Someone else, I won't say who (Touchdown! Washington Redskins!), also told me that Cerrato was extremely close to Snyder's father (who many suspect was the real catalyst behind a lot of personnel moves around say...2000), and he suspects part of why Snyder won't get rid of Cerrato is that it'd be like firing his own dad. The theory is a bit out there, but I suppose not entirely.[/quote]

All kidding aside Vinny's made some good moves and some bad moves player wise, cap wise he/Dan fail. It has always appeared from the outside that they are attached at the hip, but who really knows.

One thing is for sure, we heard a little talk last year about a possibly cutting of the cord with Vinny and that never materialized. I'm really surprised he has lasted this long under Dan.

IMO a GOOD GM could really help the Redskins, and there are several good ones out there. It worked the first time when we where at the TOP EVERY YEAR consistently! We have THREE SB trophies to prove that! I don't understand why Dan is so slow to catch on.......? I guess I could answer the question and just say it has to be a power trip IMO.

Re: What does Vinny Cerrato do?
 

[QUOTE=70Chip;408291]SS is down with Larry Micheal. Or Frank Herzog?[/QUOTE]


I can't say

Skinsfan_nn, I hear what you're saying but times are different now with salary cap and free agency issues. I think a really underlooked issue is to have a good scouting system in place, and I feel like we have really improved in that area. For all the deserved credit Grunfeld gets as GM of the Wizards, one thing people don't realize is all the work that Jordan put into revamping and expanding the scouting department.

Re: What does Vinny Cerrato do?
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;408228]What a GM would mean is a great question, because no one really knows. That's why I always say the "We need a GM" argument carries little weight because no one can really say what that would mean.[/QUOTE]

I always argue that we have a GM. It just isn't how we normally see it. What everyone really means when they say "We need a GM" is "We need Synder not making football decisions." I argue that Gibbs 2.0 showed exactly the role Snyder should be in. Let football guys tell you who to get and how valuable they are then go get them. I don't see anything even close to recently that leads me to believe that Snyder does anything more than recruit, negotiate and write checks. That's how it should be and I suspect that is how it'll continue to be.

I suspect the haggling right now with GW is over staff and direction of the offense. It is probably somewhat unnerving for GW to envision being HC while Saunders basically runs half the team. From what I can tell Saunders is respected but not the most liked guy and I am guessing that GW thinks this team has good chemistry and is extremely worried that not having control of the offense would be detrimental. Not control in terms of calling plays but control in terms of bringing in his guys and having them be clearly his subordinates. I tend to agree that Saunders would loom awfully large over GW's shoulder and I could definitely see that as causing problems. I am not convinced that we need Saunders or that he'd be awful loss. I do think his offense works and works well but there are other offenses, that aren't nearly as hard to learn, that could succeed. Hell I'd honestly consider giving Todd Collins a boat load of money to become a QB coach and help run the offense until he was ready to be OC. I know it sounds crazy but we'd keep the system and a sense of continuity.

Re: What does Vinny Cerrato do?
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;408304]I can't say

Skinsfan_nn, I hear what you're saying but times are different now with salary cap and free agency issues. I think a really underlooked issue is to have a good scouting system in place, and I feel like we have really improved in that area. For all the deserved credit Grunfeld gets as GM of the Wizards, one thing people don't realize is all the work that Jordan put into revamping and expanding the scouting department.[/QUOTE]

In the end it really does come down to scouting when we're talking about player acquisition. It has been our weakness and finally looks like we have gotten that starightened out some.

Re: What does Vinny Cerrato do?
 

[quote=FRPLG;408311]In the end it really does come down to scouting when we're talking about player acquisition. It has been our weakness and finally looks like we have gotten that starightened out some.[/quote]

I think at least for the last 4 years its been Joe saying I want this or that AND of course the scouting dept. helping out with those decisions and Joe getting his way NO MATTER WHAT!

It has been straighted out to a degree for the last 4 years. I'm not convinced ONE BIT the next coach (hopefully GW) will have the same luxury.

It could easily slip into the same ole same ole, prior Joe coming back. I certainly hope not for the sake of the team.

Re: What does Vinny Cerrato do?
 

The problem with the "it ain't broke don't fix it" theory is the man that fixed the problems and held it all together Joe Gibbs, is now gone. If Gibbs were still here that theory works.
But Gibbs is gone and I do not trust Snyder and Cerratto to make sound, long term, slow but positive growth decisions.

What is so wrong with making a change to the head of the personnel department?
Why is Cerratto untouchable? It is not like they (snyder & Cerrato) have set the world on fire. Why does the Washington Press not ask these questions to the Redskins? Are they afraid to upset the little guy?

Re: What does Vinny Cerrato do?
 

Well, the other question will be just how involved Gibbs will be in his advisor role.

Re: What does Vinny Cerrato do?
 

[quote=Defensewins;408352]The problem with the "it ain't broke don't fix it" theory is the man that fixed the problems and held it all together Joe Gibbs, is now gone. If Gibbs were still here that theory works.
But Gibbs is gone and I do not trust Snyder and Cerratto to make sound, long term, slow but positive growth decisions.

What is so wrong with making a change to the head of the personnel department?
Why is Cerratto untouchable? It is not like they (snyder & Cerrato) have set the world on fire. Why does the Washington Press not ask these questions to the Redskins? Are they afraid to upset the little guy?[/quote]

This is a lot like how I felt about this prior to starting this thread. The thing to keep in mind, however, is that Joe Gibbs wasn't making every personnel decision on his own. It seems he setup a pretty solid group of men to coordinate on these decisions, from the coaching staff to the FO. For example, it has been suggested that the coordinators such as Williams and Saunders had a hand in choosing who to bring in on their respective units. But I am sure that these players were scouted by the men upstairs at the suggestion of Williams et. al., they thought they were sound investments, and in the end YES Joe Gibbs had the final say.

If that is truly how things are being run then the "don't fix what aint broke" theory does seem to work, as long as a Head Coach with the same wherewithal as Gibbs (or close to it I guess) has the final decision on the matters, then presumably the system currently in place SHOULD work. Or at least that is the reasoning.

Whether or not this will work out this way is hard to tell, and I agree the prospect of more foolish player acquisitions by Snyder/Cerrato is frightening. But Snyder has a lot invested in this team, and I am sure a successful man such as himself can learn from his mistakes. Has Gibbs rubbed-off on him? Perhaps. I guess as fans all we can do is give him the benefit of the doubt. Otherwise we're just gonna drive ourselves crazy worrying about something that is impossible to predict or change.


P.S. "rubbed-off on him" sounds dirty . . . te hee

Re: What does Vinny Cerrato do?
 

I'll tell you one of the main reasons I want GW to ge the job. Obviously it has been reported that he wants some control over player acquisition. It has also been reported/rumored that he doesn't want the job if he can't have say. Knowing what we know about GW I'd say this jives pretty well with his image. So, to me, if he does get the job it hopefully shows that he was able wrest some control from Snyder/Cerrato. I am not convinced that Snyder/Cerrato can't do a decent job along but I am darn sure that Cerrato/Snyder/Williams would have a better chance.

Re: What does Vinny Cerrato do?
 

Someone said they thought tht we should stay with the status quo because if it "ain't broke, don't fix it".

May I review the bidding?

Vinnie C. has been part of the Redskins' FO since 1999 - except for that one year when Marty had him fired as a prerequisite to his signing on with the Redskins.

Someone can go back and get the exact numbers, but I suspect that the Redskins are below .500 between 2000 and 2007. You can leave in marty's year or not since the Skins were 8-8 that year and it will not affect whether or not Vinnie's tenure here has produced winners or losers.

Some folks might say that falls into the "it's broke so why the hell not try to fix it" bucket.

Re: What does Vinny Cerrato do?
 

I agree with most of your post sportscurmudgeon.

The bottom line is if you have tunnel vision and can't see outside the tunnel, you won't ever see much. To make a blanket statement such as "if it ain't broke,don't fix it"! Unless your the Pats (I know it sucks, but true) you should think a little more before making what I would think was probably an emotional statement at the time or if you really feel that way, what a young man with alot of money that hasn't learned much about how to run a constantly WINNING franchise, which we all dream for.

Only time will tell. I hope Dan does what IMO would be the right thing put GW in place as HC and give some serious consideration to a GM. At some point in time this love boat for Vinny will come to an end. Hopefully sooner than later.

But a good point was made just look at the Redskins record since Dan bought the team. The proofs in the pudding.

Without Joe at the helm, someone with reason that could put Dan in his place. No one Dan hires will have the influence Joe had on him, he idolized Joe, and I don't think many of us think Joe will be but so involved as a consultant?

Don't know how it's all gonna shake out but at the very least, hope we keep the key components Joe has in place for us now, (start by hiring our next head coach GW). Joe has us pointed in the right direction. I just hope Dan and Vinny don't destroy it.

Re: What does Vinny Cerrato do?
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;408228]What a GM would mean is a great question, because no one really knows. That's why I always say the "We need a GM" argument carries little weight because no one can really say what that would mean.

But there's one person who does...and that's all that matters. Actually I don't even know how much Snyder trusts him entirely.[/QUOTE]

Why do we need a GM? Why have we have only drafted 2 Pro Bowlers in the 7 drafts since Charlie Casserly left? Bad luck? Why did the Patriots get 23 touchdowns for a 4th round pick and we got barely 23 catches for a 3rd, 4th and a hefty new contract? Why is it the Chargers can lose LT and Philip Rivers and beat Indy on the road? Why did the Giants have all 8 of their '07 draft picks play in their playoff game versus the Cowboys?

I agree the argument carries no weight, because its as evident as air. The current structure is not working, it hasn't worked and it won't work.