Has Todd Collins vindicated the Al Saunders offense?
 

We have just witnessed an offense that has dismantled last years NFC Superbowl representatives, two playoff teams, and 1 "would be playoff" team. We were able to run on great run stuffing defenses and complete long passes against teams with strong pass rushing abilities. I believe Todd has vindicated Al.

The bigger question is, will this vindication earn the trust of Joe Gibbs? There has been a lot of talk about how Gibbs might be limiting Al's play-calling. I think we just witnessed the end of that discussion over the last 4 games!

Re: Has Todd Collins vindicated the Al Saunders offense?
 

Not really. I mean Campbell was making all the same throws that Collins is. The difference is that Collins rarely turns the ball over, and has yet to be picked.

Re: Has Todd Collins vindicated the Al Saunders offense?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;399485]Not really. I mean Campbell was making all the same throws that Collins is. The difference is that Collins rarely turns the ball over, and has yet to be picked.[/quote]

I agree that Campbell has made the same throws, but Collins is hitting those 30-40 yard passes for TD's to his wide receivers. Campbell hit Cooley a couple of times but had a hard time finding Moss et.al. in the end zone. He did, however, hit those guys for long gains between the 20's.

Campbell also seemed to get a little rattled in the second half. Not unnerved, but it now looks to me that he had a little trouble dealing with opposing defenses second half adjustments. I expect that having another offseason to review will fix that for him. I read an article in the Post where Dick Vermiel was interviewed saying that he believes Campbell really needs this next offseason and then he will light it up.

Right now, Collins is just making the throws in the second half that keep sustaining drives and scoring points. We have lacked that with Campbell.

Re: Has Todd Collins vindicated the Al Saunders offense?
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;399485]Not really. I mean Campbell was making all the same throws that Collins is. The difference is that Collins rarely turns the ball over, and has yet to be picked.[/QUOTE]

Campbell cant make half the throws TC can. Campbell throws a good deep ball but thats about it. Campbell gets the ball out of his hands fast and can make the short, medium, and touch passes that Campbell cant. Also TC doesnt fumble because he doesnt hold the ball down by his hip to start his release. He moves so much faster than TC right now its amazing. I think this is the AS offense Gibbs thought he was getting and now that there is a QB that can run it good things are happening.

Re: Has Todd Collins vindicated the Al Saunders offense?
 

This is an easy and resounding YES.

Re: Has Todd Collins vindicated the Al Saunders offense?
 

Campbell was making throws he thought were open. In a timing offense, you need to make the throws you believe are going to be open.

I have no intention of throwing Campbell under the bus. I would say, in fact, that this run with Todd might be the best thing for Campbell. Now that he sees this offense working, Jason might buy into the program a little more, and when he next plays he'll be better suited.

Re: Has Todd Collins vindicated the Al Saunders offense?
 

You're so right Brud. On that touchdown to Moss Collins threw the ball when Santana broke inside; and as soon as Moss turned upfield all he had to do was turn around and put his hands up. Touchdown.

Re: Has Todd Collins vindicated the Al Saunders offense?
 

The offense didn't need to be vindicated.

Re: Has Todd Collins vindicated the Al Saunders offense?
 

[QUOTE=BrudLee;399502]Campbell was making throws he thought were open. In a timing offense, you need to make the throws you believe are going to be open.

I have no intention of throwing Campbell under the bus. I would say, in fact, that this run with Todd might be the best thing for Campbell. Now that he sees this offense working, Jason might buy into the program a little more, and when he next plays he'll be better suited.[/QUOTE]

I agree wholeheartedly. If Campbell is the QB we think/hope he is, he'll have the maturity and wisdom to learn from this experience. Mind you, this is bigger than just learning the offensive better. It's learning to deal with an injury. It may also involve dealing with a QB controversy. While the jury is still out on him, he has shown a great deal of resiliency and intelligence in the past with having to learn upteen offensive systems both in college and the pros. Hopefully when married with maturity, wisdom and proper mentorship he will take us to the promised land.

GMAT

__________________________
I might not know what I'm talking about, but what I do know is that I am talking about what?

Re: Has Todd Collins vindicated the Al Saunders offense?
 

I don't think this has vindicated the offense as much as given us a glimpse of what is yet to come. I love how Collins is playing, but before we go throwing Jason Campbell under the bus let's just remember that Brunell struggled in this offense as well. The timing and trust that Collins has in this offense can't be picked up in one offseason, it takes time to understand and believe. I think that Campbell will be much more prepared next season as he'll not only have his own film to study but can look at Collins as well. It's win-win to me.

Re: Has Todd Collins vindicated the Al Saunders offense?
 

[quote=skinsfan69;399514]The offense didn't need to be vindicated.[/quote]

Agree...AS is a proven year after year offensive guru. His O's are consistently top 10 in the league. He doesn't need vindication. For whatever reason its clicking now.

Re: Has Todd Collins vindicated the Al Saunders offense?
 

[quote=skinsfan69;399514]The offense didn't need to be vindicated.[/quote]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Saunders was on the hotseat prior to this run and he could have ended up being the scapegoat had we missed the playoffs.

Re: Has Todd Collins vindicated the Al Saunders offense?
 

[quote=irish;399490]Campbell cant make half the throws TC can. Campbell throws a good deep ball but thats about it. Campbell gets the ball out of his hands fast and can make the short, medium, and touch passes that Campbell cant. Also TC doesnt fumble because he doesnt hold the ball down by his hip to start his release. He moves so much faster than TC right now its amazing. I think this is the AS offense Gibbs thought he was getting and now that there is a QB that can run it good things are happening.[/quote]

Uh, Collins had two fumbles yesterday, and has had three in four games, so I wouldn't exactly say he "doesn't fumble"? And saying that Campbell "can't" make the same throws as Collins is ridiculous. He [I]wasn't [/I]making the throws before we was injured, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have the ability to make those throws.

Collins certainly has the timing figured out in Saunders offense better than Campbell, but the upside to Todd Collins is nonexistent. I agree with Brud's comments. Seeing Collins run the offense will help Campbell develop within Saunders' system.

Re: Has Todd Collins vindicated the Al Saunders offense?
 

Campbell is physically capable of making any throw, and his arm is definitely much stronger than Collins.

Collins however is proving that experience and the mental aspect of the game is so critical. In that aspect Collins as the advantage. In time we'll see if Campbell can get to that same level. He just needs more time and experience.

Re: Has Todd Collins vindicated the Al Saunders offense?
 

consider it vindicated.

Re: Has Todd Collins vindicated the Al Saunders offense?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;399551]Campbell is physically capable of making any throw, and his arm is definitely much stronger than Collins.

Collins however is proving that experience and the mental aspect of the game is so critical. In that aspect Collins as the advantage. In time we'll see if Campbell can get to that same level. He just needs more time and experience.[/QUOTE]

I agree that JC has the ability to make any throw, the problem is he doesnt make the medium, short & touch passes with any consistency. I still am convinced that that is because of his buggy whip delivery. Its too long & too loose.

Arm strength is important but I'll take a guy with a 50 cent arm and a million dollar head over a million dollar arm and a 50 cent head any day. You dont need a cannon arm (and/or lots of mobility) to be a very successful QB.

Re: Has Todd Collins vindicated the Al Saunders offense?
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;399485]Not really. I mean Campbell was making all the same throws that Collins is. The difference is that Collins rarely turns the ball over, and has yet to be picked.[/QUOTE]

Strongly disagree with the first part of your comment. While Campbell has a much stronger arm and can gun the ball to receivers, he wasn't throwing in anticipation of where the receiver will be like TC has done. The timing with which TC is delivering those medium range passes is far superior to what Campbell has done. Campbell has a little way to go before he can run the offense like this.

Re: Has Todd Collins vindicated the Al Saunders offense?
 

yes. collins delivers the ball on time in al saunders timing pass offense. campbell would throw the ball when a player is open. collins throws the ball before the receiver is open to the pre-designed open area. also it seems that on the short to mid range passes campbell would throw it behind the receiver not allowing him to catch and run without breaking stride.

go skins!

Re: Has Todd Collins vindicated the Al Saunders offense?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;399542]I wouldn't be so sure about that. Saunders was on the hotseat prior to this run and he could have ended up being the scapegoat had we missed the playoffs.[/quote]

His track record in KC and STL speaks for itself.

Re: Has Todd Collins vindicated the Al Saunders offense?
 

[quote=skinsfan69;399647]His track record in KC and STL speaks for itself.[/quote]

Sure but that wouldn't have saved his job here.

These last 4 weeks has cemented Saunders job and has definitely validated the decision to bring him here.

Re: Has Todd Collins vindicated the Al Saunders offense?
 

[quote=over the mountain;399631]yes. collins delivers the ball on time in al saunders timing pass offense. campbell would throw the ball when a player is open. collins throws the ball before the receiver is open to the pre-designed open area. also it seems that on the short to mid range passes campbell would throw it behind the receiver not allowing him to catch and run without breaking stride.

go skins![/quote]

this is a very good point. jc just doesn't seem to have the anticipation in the passing game down like collins does. no one was better in this offense than warner. he would throw the ball well before the wr's came out of their breaks.

Re: Has Todd Collins vindicated the Al Saunders offense?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;399649]Sure but that wouldn't have saved his job here.

These last 4 weeks has cemented Saunders job and has definitely validated the decision to bring him here.[/quote]

I don't think Saunders was going to get fired. We were playing with a young QB who was improving. Why change things around in such an early stage of his career? Look at the top QB's? Brady, Manning, Palmer, McNabb Farve. All those guys have been in one offense their whole careers. That would have been a very stupid thing to do IMO.

Re: Has Todd Collins vindicated the Al Saunders offense?
 

[quote=skinsfan69;399660]I don't think Saunders was going to get fired. We were playing with a young QB who was improving. Why change things around in such an early stage of his career? Look at the top QB's? Brady, Manning, Palmer, McNabb Farve. All those guys have been in one offense their whole careers. That would have been a very stupid thing to do IMO.[/quote]

I don't think he would have been fired either... but with a 2nd straight lackluster season he would have been on the hotseat at the very least.

Re: Has Todd Collins vindicated the Al Saunders offense?
 

I think the real question is when do they change the name of the drink to the Tod Collins

Re: Has Todd Collins vindicated the Al Saunders offense?
 

[quote=skinsfan69;399660]I don't think Saunders was going to get fired. We were playing with a young QB who was improving. Why change things around in such an early stage of his career? Look at the top QB's? Brady, Manning, Palmer, McNabb Farve. All those guys have been in one offense their whole careers. That would have been a very stupid thing to do IMO.[/quote]

I don't think that Gibbs was looking to get rid of him, but there were a lot of rumblings about Saunders possibly being made the scapegoat at the end of the season. Maybe it was just the media, but maybe not.

Regardless, there shouldn't be any questions anymore.

Re: Has Todd Collins vindicated the Al Saunders offense?
 

resounding yes. mainly because we're actually seeing the real saunder's offense now, and not the conservative version with banged up players (moss/portis) hobbling along in it.

with our oline back and our stars healthy, i think campbell (or collins) will make the offense look even better next year. campbell needs to stop fumbling though, if nothing else.

Re: Has Todd Collins vindicated the Al Saunders offense?
 

[quote=GoSkins!;399484]We have just witnessed an offense that has dismantled last years NFC Superbowl representatives, two playoff teams, and 1 "would be playoff" team. We were able to run on great run stuffing defenses and complete long passes against teams with strong pass rushing abilities. I believe Todd has vindicated Al.

The bigger question is, will this vindication earn the trust of Joe Gibbs? There has been a lot of talk about how Gibbs might be limiting Al's play-calling. I think we just witnessed the end of that discussion over the last 4 games![/quote]

"Has Todd Collins vindicated the Al Saunders offense?" hmmmm

That was done years ago in another city on another team. Has Todd Collins executed the Al Saunders offense better than JC? OR Does Al Saunders have more faith and trust in Todd Collins to execute the Al Saunders offense more effectively than JC? Those may be better questions, and the answer to both of those questions is yes. I don't think Todd Collins has vindicated the Al Saunders offense by playing well in it. Hell he's studied the system for years. It is a proven offense, and I believe JC will execute it even better once he matures a little more as an NFL quarterback.

Let's enjoy the ride for now, eh?

Re: Has Todd Collins vindicated the Al Saunders offense?
 

With respect the offensive play, I think we're seeing the difference between someone who knows the AS offense and someone who is still learning the AS offense. Collins has been "in the system" for almost a whole decade and he's watched it in action when he was at KC. I do think it's extremely valuable for Campbell to see how Collins works in the offense at this stage as he can compare mental notes of how he would execute vs how Collins executes. Campbell will be the #1 next year when he returns healthy and I think we'll see another big leap in his development.

Re: Has Todd Collins vindicated the Al Saunders offense?
 

[quote=That Guy;399959] campbell needs to stop fumbling though, if nothing else.[/quote]
You mean like the 2 fumbles Collins had Sunday..or are his fumbles different?

Re: Has Todd Collins vindicated the Al Saunders offense?
 

Collins just shows what a modern offense and a well versed QB can do in the NFL!

Re: Has Todd Collins vindicated the Al Saunders offense?
 

That's a really good question. He's been in the system for so long, he knows what's going on. Give Campbell this off season to finally grasp this system and he will light it up. I think you will see Collins re-signed and mentor Jason along. Jason is the future of this team at QB.

Re: Has Todd Collins vindicated the Al Saunders offense?
 

[quote=railcon56;400056]You mean like the 2 fumbles Collins had Sunday..or are his fumbles different?[/quote]

i meant that collins has 5 tds and 2 turnovers, campbell has 12 tds and 19 turnovers. 2.5:1 is better that 1:1.6.