Time for a flat tax
 

This is getting ridiculous. Why is it that we are not all taxed the same rate? Why do people that work hard for a living and have no kids, get punished for doing so? I don't care if you make $5 or $500,000, you should be taxed the same percentage!
It is not the responsibility of the rich to pay for the inadaquacies of the poor. It is everyones responsibility to take responsibility for their own actions.
I suffered massive debt to get my Masters degree, and now it's finally paying off even though I still owe 50k in student loans. Yet my taxes are getting worse and worse cause I am making more and more. That is BS! Don't punish those that are trying to better themselves.

Re: Time for a flat tax
 

I generally agree (if for no other reason than to make taxes easier), but I don't have a problem with luxury taxes on high-ticket items.

Re: Time for a flat tax
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;299264]I generally agree (if for no other reason than to make taxes easier), but I don't have a problem with luxury taxes on high-ticket items.[/QUOTE]

DO luxury taxes still exist?
I remember several years ago, you had to pay a luxury tax on any vehicle over 30k. (yes, it's been a while ago) But I thought the luxury tax was abolished?

It would certainly make taxes easier if it was a flat tax. We are all supposed to be "equal" yet we are taxed differently?

Re: Time for a flat tax
 

hate to say it, but you should pay more if you make more. why should i be paying the same flat tax as a millionaire? if you think about it, it really doesn't make sense

Re: Time for a flat tax
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;299274]hate to say it, but you should pay more if you make more. why should i be paying the same flat tax as a millionaire? if you think about it, it really doesn't make sense[/QUOTE]

Why? A millionaire worked for his money (assuming he did work for it). So why should people that worked to earn more be taxed more? Everyone should get taxed the same percentage. We are all supposed to be equal!
You really have your work cut out for you to explain why a millionaire deserves a higher percentage TAKEN from them to support the poor.
ps- I am not even referring to millionaires...but people that make say 100k instead of people that make say 30k. But millionaires still count in my flat tax idea.

Re: Time for a flat tax
 

Wow. Is the Parking Lot getting political or what?

Actually, I don't mind.

Problem with a luxury tax is that the smart people who have made a lot of money will always find a way around it.

The government tried the same thing with luxury yachts several years ago. They put a ridiculous tax on multi-million dollar yachts and the rich simply went to foreign countries and bought them cheaper.

Result? That put thousands of people who make their living building yachts in the United States out of work.

Re: Time for a flat tax
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;299284]Wow. Is the Parking Lot getting political or what? [/QUOTE]

I didn't see this as political, just an issue in this country that I think needs to be fixed.

Re: Time for a flat tax
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;299274]hate to say it, but you should pay more if you make more. why should i be paying the same flat tax as a millionaire? if you think about it, it really doesn't make sense[/QUOTE]

But they do pay more. As it stands right now, the richest 1% of the country pays over 35% of all income taxes.

Re: Time for a flat tax
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;299284]Wow. Is the Parking Lot getting political or what?

Actually, I don't mind.

Problem with a luxury tax is that the smart people who have made a lot of money will always find a way around it.

The government tried the same thing with luxury yachts several years ago. They put a ridiculous tax on multi-million dollar yachts and the rich simply went to foreign countries and bought them cheaper.

Result? That put thousands of people who make their living building yachts in the United States out of work.[/QUOTE]

Interesting points Beems that I hadn't thought of.

As for the parking lot becoming political, I don't mind and actually like it provided people are reasonable and civil. On the whole, we've managed to keep the peace for now.

Re: Time for a flat tax
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;299274]hate to say it, but you should pay more if you make more. why should i be paying the same flat tax as a millionaire? if you think about it, it really doesn't make sense[/QUOTE]

Actually I think logically your argument doesn't make sense. Shouldn't everyone contribute an equal proportion of their income? Why is it fair for someone rich to pay a higher proportion? That seems like faulty logic.

All that being said I am not sure a flat tax would work for us and I am relatively ok with our progressive system as long as politicians keep an eye out for middle America. It is requiring increasingly more money to live comfortably in this country and that is driving up salaries. All of a sudden a lot of people who are considered in the higher tax bracket are the same ones who'd have been no higher than middle-middle class 40 years ago adjusted for inflation. They might have only been in the second tax bracket then. Take the AMT for example. A lot, no a TON of people are going to get hit with this in the coming few years and it will mostly be middle class Americans who all of a sudden are getting bumped into the same tax bracket Bill Gates and Warren Buffett are in. The AMT was meant for the super rich when it was made. Does that even make any sense at all?

Re: Time for a flat tax
 

i have no problem with the way it is now. the more you make , the more you pay. this way sounds like everyone IS paying an EQUAL percentage.

joe shmoe pays 10% of 300,000
slim jim pays 10% of 33,000

they're both paying 10% (equal percentage) but joe pays more cause he makes more.

Re: Time for a flat tax
 

[QUOTE=wolfeskins;299309]i have no problem with the way it is now. the more you make , the more you pay. this way sounds like everyone IS paying an EQUAL percentage.

joe shmoe pays 10% of 300,000
slim jim pays 10% of 33,000

they're both paying 10% (equal percentage) but joe pays more cause he makes more.[/QUOTE]

But that is not the way it is right now.
Joe Shmoe is paying 33%
and Slim Jim is only paying 10%.

Those numbers aren't exact, but that's the way it is...the more you make the more percentage wise you are paying. The less you make, the less percentage wise you are paying. You should all pay the same percentage.

Re: Time for a flat tax
 

The easy answer: because the rich can afford it. I think it's ignorant to say the man who only makes 30K doesn't work for his money. I bet the guys making 30K work a whole hell of a lot harder than the manager sitting in his office making 60K.

Re: Time for a flat tax
 

Thanks Ross....

Re: Time for a flat tax
 

[QUOTE=Daseal;299331]The easy answer: because the rich can afford it. I think it's ignorant to say the man who only makes 30K doesn't work for his money. I bet the guys making 30K work a whole hell of a lot harder than the manager sitting in his office making 60K.[/QUOTE]

And that guy making 30k busting his ass works a hell of a lot harder than the burger flipper at McDonalds making 10k a year...but that guy busting his ass making 30k is taxed MORE. Your logic doesn't work.

ps- most managers busted their asses to get where they are, they shouldn't be punished for it.

Re: Time for a flat tax
 

There is no way for man to make it fair. I can explain how to make it fair, but there are two major problems. It would take to long to explain, and most people have too closed of a mind to let it work. Hence man will never make it fair.

Re: Time for a flat tax
 

Watch, it's simple...charge everyone the same percentage. Let's call it 20%.
So here is the example:
1mil / year = 200k in taxes
200k / year = 40k in taxes
100k / year = 20k in taxes
75k / year = 15k in taxes
50k / year = 10k in taxes
25k / year = 5k in taxes

You take it directly out of the paycheck and no exceptions, and poof...no April 15th, no complications etc. Of course that is about as simple as you can make it.

Re: Time for a flat tax
 

[quote=jsarno;299374]Watch, it's simple...charge everyone the same percentage. Let's call it 20%.
So here is the example:
1mil / year = 200k in taxes
200k / year = 40k in taxes
100k / year = 20k in taxes
75k / year = 15k in taxes
50k / year = 10k in taxes
25k / year = 5k in taxes

You take it directly out of the paycheck and no exceptions, and poof...no April 15th, no complications etc. Of course that is about as simple as you can make it.[/quote]

My idea is similar to that, but alot more in depth. It is not only a plan for taxes but for compensation and payments to anyone for anything period. Its kind of a combination of capitalism and socialism combined. That is the last I will speak of it.

Re: Time for a flat tax
 

[QUOTE=angryssg;299377]My idea is similar to that, but alot more in depth. It is not only a plan for taxes but for compensation and payments to anyone for anything period. Its kind of a combination of capitalism and socialism combined. That is the last I will speak of it.[/QUOTE]

I am intrigued.
PM me with some more details.

Re: Time for a flat tax
 

[quote=jsarno;299380]I am intrigued.
PM me with some more details.[/quote]

Its going to take a while.

Re: Time for a flat tax
 

[QUOTE=angryssg;299389]Its going to take a while.[/QUOTE]


Just the basics of the idea is fine. I have my own ideas too, so I'd love to hear someone else share the ideas.

Re: Time for a flat tax
 

[quote=jsarno;299391]Just the basics of the idea is fine. I have my own ideas too, so I'd love to hear someone else share the ideas.[/quote]
You should have it by now.

Re: Time for a flat tax
 

[quote=jsarno;299374]Watch, it's simple...charge everyone the same percentage. Let's call it 20%.
So here is the example:
1mil / year = 200k in taxes
200k / year = 40k in taxes
100k / year = 20k in taxes
75k / year = 15k in taxes
50k / year = 10k in taxes
25k / year = 5k in taxes

You take it directly out of the paycheck and no exceptions, and poof...no April 15th, no complications etc. Of course that is about as simple as you can make it.[/quote]

LOL! Can you even comprehend what devastating impact 5k in taxes would do to the first year teacher, farmer or factory worker's ability to even attempt to provide basic food/clothing/shelter for his/her family?

Re: Time for a flat tax
 

[QUOTE=724Skinsfan;299395]LOL! Can you even comprehend what devastating impact 5k in taxes would do to the first year teacher, farmer or factory worker's ability to even attempt to provide basic food/clothing/shelter for his/her family?[/QUOTE]

Well, yeah...if they are a first year, they were in school making NOTHING, so they are still 20k richer. Also, the first year teacher here in SE New Mexico makes around 40k. Ouch.
ps- farmers can easily make 200k+ a year. Don't let their bitching and moaning fool you. It's just a hard job. I have friends that are farmers (cotton and chili peppers) they make a killing...and when the weather doesn't cooporate with them, they get government assistance.

Re: Time for a flat tax
 

this is a dumb comparison. you choose 20%. well 20% to someone making,100,000 is nothing. 20% to the guy making 25,000 is alot of cash. and i don't begrudge anyone their money, but the old saying is true, the less money you make, the harder you work. i am a perfect testament to that. all the $5.00 and $6.00 an hour jobs i worked and busted my balls, now i make about $75,000 a year and its the easiest job i have ever had. and this arguements biggest point will be, if they do go to a flat tax, where will they make up the lost money? your arguement is all about the rich getting richer.

Re: Time for a flat tax
 

[quote=jsarno;299396]Well, yeah...if they are a first year, they were in school making NOTHING, so they are still 20k richer. Also, the first year teacher here in SE New Mexico makes around 40k. Ouch.
ps- farmers can easily make 200k+ a year. Don't let their bitching and moaning fool you. It's just a hard job. I have friends that are farmers (cotton and chili peppers) they make a killing...and when the weather doesn't cooporate with them, they get government assistance.[/quote]

Umm...errr...never....mind...{sigh}.

Re: Time for a flat tax
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;299287]But they do pay more. As it stands right now, the richest 1% of the country pays over 35% of all income taxes.[/quote]

This is pretty consistent with the numbers I've seen.

I know we here at the Warpath like to argue what "should" be the case on a lot of issues, but so often (as with the salary cap) we forget to ground ourselves in what is [I]possible[/I].

We need to tax the rich a greater % than we tax the middle class and the poor, because the nation needs that money. If we went with a flat tax that managed to net the same amount of overall revenue that our current graduated system does, the flat tax rate would represent an absolutely CRIPPLING tax hike for the poor and the middle class. Maybe that seems "fair" to you, but I don't see how that can be considered a good thing when so many middle class people are struggling to afford health insurance as it is. With college education costs rising so fast and with the recent run-up in home prices, the middle class is getting squeezed enough as it is. A flat tax would thrust many of them into poverty so the top 1% could buy more yachts.

I'm a red-blooded Republican, and I still recognize a flat tax makes no sense. The middle class does indeed need to realize that they need to work hard and pull themselves up, and not depend on the government. But the shift of money from the poor to the rich would be huge if we moved to a flat tax.

Besides, this idea would NEVER pass in congress. The likelihood of this ever happening is so remote that it almost renders this thread "retarded."

But please, let's all continue arguing based on ideals instead of reality, and continue to pretend a flat tax would be more fair in our ideal worlds.

Re: Time for a flat tax
 

The UNITED STATES government has become a juggernaut that exists mostly to feed itself. NO flat tax like formula will ever be adopted as it would effectively do away with the IRS, with it's simplicity.
THEY will not allow that type of impact to...........the machine.
-Fox Mulder

Re: Time for a flat tax
 

[quote=Hog1;299456]The UNITED STATES government has become a juggernaut that exists mostly to feed itself. NO flat tax like formula will ever be adopted as it would effectively do away with the IRS, with it's simplicity.
THEY will not allow that type of impact to...........the machine.
-Fox Mulder[/quote]

:rolleyes:

Re: Time for a flat tax
 

One of the underlying principals of progressive taxing is that, if you are making more, you have benefitted from the system more. While the top 1% pay 35% of the taxes, they also hold approximately one third of the nation's wealth. The top 10% hold (approximately) 60% of the nation's wealth.

You are right, the harder you work, the more you pay in taxes. Unlike in many countries, however, there is still an incredible incentive to work hard. From just brief internet research, it appears to me that America's tax to GNP is significantly less than most countries in the world. US taxes are slightly less than 30% of the GNP as opposed to European countries which tax, on average, at about 50% of the GNP.

In America, the wealthy are entitled to retain wealth. More millionares AND billionares (in US Dollars) live in America than anywhere else.

Re: Time for a flat tax
 

Let's just kill off the income tax completely and implement a national sales tax.

You can decide how much you want to pay by how much you spend...THEN welfare recipients can pay their share of taxes when they buy their $5000 rims for their $500 car and the big screen TV for the rowhome. :)

This COULD potentially generate more revenue for the government than an income tax. Millionaires will have a lot more of their income to spend and WILL do so.

Re: Time for a flat tax
 

You have to remember too that many of those European countries are more advanced when it comes to social welfare of its citizens (welfare programs, universal health care, etc), so their taxes on average will naturally be higher. And they normally don't bitch too much about high taxes because a great deal of things that would be out of pocket for Americans, are paid for by their Government.

I'd like to see sales taxes eliminated on basic necessities (food, certain articles of clothing, etc), but keep sales tax on items deemed non-essential. A lot of times, if I know I need to make one massive shop for clothing and such, I'll wait until I'm either in Delaware (no sales tax), or Pennsylvania (sales tax exempt for food, clothing, drugs, textbooks, resale items and residential heating fuels) so that I can save some money.

I'm not sure exactly what to do about Income Tax. While I'd like to see a flat tax, it doesn't make much sense in terms of revenue for the Governments.

Re: Time for a flat tax
 

Also, as Schneed said, to retain the same income to provide those silly things like national defense, interstate road systems and commerce, the flat tax would be crippling.

Let's look at just some basic tax rates for a family of four (H+W, 2 dependent kids) taking the standard deduction (rather than itemized) deductions:
Basic tax rates for 2006:

In general, the Family is entitled to a standard deduction of 10,300 plus 3,300/person for a total deduction of 23,500.


Taking with those as your only deductions, the applicable tax rates ARE:

Taxable Income:
23,500- 38,599: 10% of the amount over $23,500

38,600 – 84,799: 1,510.00 plus 15% of the amount over 38,600

84,800 -147,199: 8,440.00 plus 25% of the amount over 84,800

147,200 - 211,049: 24,040.00 plus 28% of the amount over 147,200

211,050 - 360,049: 42,170.00 plus 33% of the amount over 211,450

Over 360,050: 91,043.00 plus 35% of the amount over 360,050

[url=http://www.irs.gov/formspubs/article/0,,id=150856,00.html]2006 Federal Tax Rate Schedules[/url] (the numbers are different b/c I have factored in the standard deductions.

In addition, b/c there are two children, the Family is entitled to a 2,000 tax credit (i.e. subtract that from the amount of taxes owed).


THUS, under the current system, the taxes owed if the Family makes:

20,000: 0 (Simply did not make enough to be taxed)

50,000: 1,220 (3,220- 2000 tax credit)

100,000: 10,240 (12,240-2000)

175,000: 29,824

250,000: 53,024

500,000: 140,025


UNDER THE FLAT TAX:

20,000: 2,000 - Net Effect: 2,000 increase

50,000: 5,000 - NE: 3,800 increase

100,000: 10,000 - NE: ~240 decrease

175,000: 17,500 - NE: ~12,300 decrease

250,000: 25,000 - NE: ~28,000 decrease

500,000: 50,000 - NE: ~90,000 decrease

Taxes gathered from these five "family's" under current taxes: 234,333
Taxes under 10% flat tax: 109,500
FLAT Tax rate necessary to collect the same amount of taxes as current system from these five families: 21%

Thus:
20,000: 4,200

50,000: 10,500

100,000: 21,000

175,000: 36,500

250,000: 52,5000

500,000: 105,000

AND since the 21% rate is based on a false assumption that there is an equal distribution of families within each of the brackets, it is likely that the actual flat tax rate neccessary to gather the same amount of taxes as the current system would be in the neighborhood of 25%.

Make no mistake about it, flat taxes are THE most regressive possible. Believe it or not, I too am a died in the wool republican and oppose excessive government. But the flat tax is simply wrong both from a practical and philosophical viewpoint. Practically, its implementation would be crippling to either lower and middle income families or to the public as whole b/c the State simply could not afford to pay for the services we currently expect from it. Philosophically, it places the burden of paying for the governmental system on the backs of those who have least benefitted from it.

Re: Time for a flat tax
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;299653]Also, as Schneed said, to retain the same income to provide those silly things like national defense, interstate road systems and commerce, the flat tax would be crippling.

Let's look at just some basic tax rates for a family of four (H+W, 2 dependent kids) taking the standard deduction (rather than itemized) deductions:
Basic tax rates for 2006:

In general, the Family is entitled to a standard deduction of 10,300 plus 3,300/person for a total deduction of 23,500.


Taking with those as your only deductions, the applicable tax rates ARE:

Taxable Income:
23,500- 38,599: 10% of the amount over $23,500

38,600 – 84,799: 1,510.00 plus 15% of the amount over 38,600

84,800 -147,199: 8,440.00 plus 25% of the amount over 84,800

147,200 - 211,049: 24,040.00 plus 28% of the amount over 147,200

211,050 - 360,049: 42,170.00 plus 33% of the amount over 211,450

Over 360,050: 91,043.00 plus 35% of the amount over 360,050

[URL="http://www.irs.gov/formspubs/article/0,,id=150856,00.html"]2006 Federal Tax Rate Schedules[/URL] (the numbers are different b/c I have factored in the standard deductions.

In addition, b/c there are two children, the Family is entitled to a 2,000 tax credit (i.e. subtract that from the amount of taxes owed).


THUS, under the current system, the taxes owed if the Family makes:

20,000: 0 (Simply did not make enough to be taxed)

50,000: 1,220 (3,220- 2000 tax credit)

100,000: 10,240 (12,240-2000)

175,000: 29,824

250,000: 53,024

500,000: 140,025


UNDER THE FLAT TAX:

20,000: 2,000 - Net Effect: 2,000 increase

50,000: 5,000 - NE: 3,800 increase

100,000: 10,000 - NE: ~240 decrease

175,000: 17,500 - NE: ~12,300 decrease

250,000: 25,000 - NE: ~28,000 decrease

500,000: 50,000 - NE: ~90,000 decrease

Taxes gathered from these five "family's" under current taxes: 234,333
Taxes under 10% flat tax: 109,500
FLAT Tax rate necessary to collect the same amount of taxes as current system from these five families: 21%

Thus:
20,000: 4,200

50,000: 10,500

100,000: 21,000

175,000: 36,500

250,000: 52,5000

500,000: 105,000

AND since the 21% rate is based on a false assumption that there is an equal distribution of families within each of the brackets, it is likely that the actual flat tax rate neccessary to gather the same amount of taxes as the current system would be in the neighborhood of 25%.

Make no mistake about it, flat taxes are THE most regressive possible. Believe it or not, I too am a died in the wool republican and oppose excessive government. But the flat tax is simply wrong both from a practical and philosophical viewpoint. Practically, its implementation would be crippling to either lower and middle income families or to the public as whole b/c the State simply could not afford to pay for the services we currently expect from it. Philosophically, it places the burden of paying for the governmental system on the backs of those who have least benefitted from it.[/quote]

Great post. Love the analytics.

People can't argue with math.

Re: Time for a flat tax
 

[QUOTE=BDBohnzie;299612]You have to remember too that many of those European countries are more advanced when it comes to social welfare of its citizens (welfare programs, universal health care, etc), so their taxes on average will naturally be higher. And they normally don't bitch too much about high taxes because a great deal of things that would be out of pocket for Americans, are paid for by their Government.[/QUOTE]

They may provide more services, but I'm not sure I would say they're more "advanced." Many European countries have dying economies with extraordinarily high unemployment rates, far less innovation, and generally fewer opportunities. They provide security for the masses, but little in the way of opportunities for making "it big."

Re: Time for a flat tax
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;299661]They may provide more services, but I'm not sure I would say they're more "advanced." Many European countries have dying economies with extraordinarily high unemployment rates, far less innovation, and generally fewer opportunities. They provide security for the masses, but little in the way of opportunities for making "it big."[/QUOTE]

Thank you. I was going to post something to this effect - but my head still hurt from my prior post's math.

Re: Time for a flat tax
 

F... federal taxes. I think state tax should be the only tax there is. IMO, interstates, military, and the like should be funded by the states.

Re: Time for a flat tax
 

Can we also dispell the notion that the amount of "work" has or should have anything to do with compensation? I don't think teaching is harder than say landscaping but one is way more important than the other and should be paid more. Compensation should reflect the value of the work and the scarcity of people able to properly do the work. The reason CEOs make so much money is because there aren't a lot of people who can do those jobs and when done properly the work they do generates far more money, value as it relates to purpose, than does they guy who sweeps the floor of the CEO's office. I know I am stating some obvious stuff here but others keep talking about "working hard". That has nothing to with any part of this debate to me.

Re: Time for a flat tax
 

[QUOTE=GhettoDogAllStars;299670]F... federal taxes. I think state tax should be the only tax there is. IMO, interstates, military, and the like should be funded by the states.[/QUOTE]

And how would the states decide how much to pay?

Whatever a state pays is just going to get passed back on to that state's residents so in effect any money paid to the mititary fund bya state would result in a federal tax on that state's residents. It simply changes the bureaucracy of it.

Re: Time for a flat tax
 

I strongly believe that the market is better than anything else at setting someone's [I]economic[/I] value and thus their salary. The market, however, is not working properly in setting CEO compensation. For example, many CEOs who are "leading" companies that are failing still manage to get great compensation packages. One reason is that their salaries (at least for big companies) are determined by committees appointed by the board of directors. Who nominates the board? The officers and fellow board members. Senior officers and boards are in bed and it shouldn't be any surprise that they each scratch each other's backs.