Defensive End - How Big is Our Need?
 

A good read from Mark Stevens on DE Andre Carter:


[quote]
Yes, statistics can be deceiving. But sometimes a look at the raw data helps paint a clearer picture. In this case, the picture is of a player who, after being next to invisible for his first 11 games, came quite abruptly into focus in the remaining five:

Through his first 11 games, Carter recorded 20 solo tackles, three assists and two sacks. Included in that run were two games in which he was shut out--zero tackles, assists or sacks--and three other games where he managed only a single solo tackle (recording an assist in one and a sack in another).

Over his last five games, Carter recorded 27 solo tackles, six assists and four sacks. Included in [I]that[/I] run were games of 9/2/1, 7/1/1 and 8/0/1.

There is no guarantee Carter's play in 2007 will consistently reach the level of his play late in 2006. But there is also no guarantee that what we saw down the stretch wasn't a sign of things to come.

Given that the strongest part of his season was toward the end, as he grew more comfortable and confident in his role, one could make the case that the more reasonable expectation is the latter.
[/quote]

[URL="http://www.redskins.com/news/newsDetail.jsp?id=25510"]Blog: One Fan's View[/URL]

This is a big reason why I think DT is the much bigger need. I think we've got a strong pass-rushing DE already.

Re: Defensive End - How Big is Our Need?
 

[quote=Schneed10;294990]A good read from Mark Stevens on DE Andre Carter:




[URL="http://www.redskins.com/news/newsDetail.jsp?id=25510"]Blog: One Fan's View[/URL]

This is a big reason why I think DT is the much bigger need. I think we've got a strong pass-rushing DE already.[/quote]

I don't like Daniels as a starter on the end. He is quality depth but should not be our go to guy at DE across from Carter. Draft DT or DE at # 6.

Re: Defensive End - How Big is Our Need?
 

Carter really came on down the stretch last year, hopefully he can pick up where he left off. If he can I could see him notching 10 sacks or more.

At this point I wouldn't mind seeing us draft a DT or DE, I would be happy with either one. We had problems with stopping the run and creating pressure last year, so it might be unreasonable to think we can completely solve both problems in one offseason, and some of the solution needs to come from guys improving on their disappointing play from last year, and the further development of guys like Golston and Montgomery.

Re: Defensive End - How Big is Our Need?
 

Of the two big defensive signings last year(Carter and Archuleta), I was far more happy with the Carter signing. Even when he was struggling early, I knew he had the ability to make plays, which he showed down the stretch. I still think drafting an end or tackle is top priority, because many of us have been screaming for this team to draft a freak defensive lineman for 4+ years now, and the sack totals for the line as a whole have been laughable in recent years.

Re: Defensive End - How Big is Our Need?
 

Carter looked good when we were in games or ahead cause he could rush the passer. When we got behind , e.g. NYG game, he got run all over. He's not a great every down DE, but he can be a force if we get ahead in games.

I thought DE was our biggest need, but I'm not convinced anymore. I think we draft the best player between the 2 positions, which I think is Okoye. Anderson & Carriker also look good if we pick later.

Re: Defensive End - How Big is Our Need?
 

[quote=JDALY27;295000]I don't like Daniels as a starter on the end. He is quality depth but should not be our go to guy at DE across from Carter. Draft DT or DE at # 6.[/quote]Well, I presented a theory in another thread that said to fill a gaping need, you need to do it with a cheaper end vet and a high draft pick.

Daniels at this point would be the immediate solution to the vet side of that. With him at LE, we don't have a gaping hole. We just simply don't have any youth.

In fact, I don't believe that we have a gaping hole anywhere in the line. I think we are just starting 4 below average players, and when you do that at the defenses most criticial position, bad things happen to the entire defense. But we don't need to bring in any older vet FAs to make any quick fixes is what I'm saying.

The only guy in the first round of the draft that could play LE for us is Adam Carriker. While I think he is a good prospect, his skill set doesn't strike me as being all that unique. He's going to be a good one in this league, but Okoye would do so much more for this team once he's in his prime than Carriker will.

It's going to take multiple years to get some youth accross the line, but if we take DT now, we can reevaluate our DE situation after the season to find our biggest need. Maybe in 2007, Andre Carter becomes the sack master we thought he would. Certainly in that case, we wouldn't look to draft a smaller pass rushing defensive end in 2008. We could be scouring the 2nd and 3rd rounds for a guy who is 280-285 with lots of college experience and a good universial grade from scouts.

Maybe in 2007, Carter actually regresses from his poor 2006 campaign. If this happens, we should go into the 2008 draft looking to pick the best DE available (regardless of style), because no longer should Andre Carter be in the future plans.

Ultimately, while Carriker would be the one universal DE prospect who would help our scheme no matter what, theres much better value in waiting a year to better evaluate our DE situation, so we know just how much value we are looking for. Since we know what our DT situation will be like next year without a second year player ready to step into an important role, that certainly seems to be our biggest need.

Re: Defensive End - How Big is Our Need?
 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've read about Carriker he sounds like a guy who plays with a high motor and is stout against the run, but his pass rushing abilities are lacking a bit. That concerns me. Plus I've read that he might be a better fit in a 3-4.

Re: Defensive End - How Big is Our Need?
 

[quote=JDALY27;295000]I don't like Daniels as a starter on the end. He is quality depth but should not be our go to guy at DE across from Carter. Draft DT or DE at # 6.[/quote]

I think Daniels might have another serviceable year in him as a starter. Now that he's back working out on his own he'll have nothing to complain about if he struggles. He's nothing flashy, but he's certainly quality depth at the very least.

Re: Defensive End - How Big is Our Need?
 

My mind has alway been that any DE we get would play running and passing downs while Daniels and Carter rotate based on situation. Daniels is slightly more solid on the run while Carter is so on the pass.

If we can't get an every down force against the run and pass I'd take a DT and stick with what we got at DE.

Re: Defensive End - How Big is Our Need?
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;294990]A good read from Mark Stevens on DE Andre Carter:




[URL="http://www.redskins.com/news/newsDetail.jsp?id=25510"]Blog: One Fan's View[/URL]

This is a big reason why I think DT is the much bigger need. I think we've got a strong pass-rushing DE already.[/QUOTE]



Good read about Carter over on Redskins.com. Let's hope he can continue with the effort he put forth down the stretch last season. If the coaching staff is convinced he can, that would (to a lesser degree) decrease our absolute need to draft a DE. Both positions DE & DT could use upgrades, I just don't know how high the team is on Montgomery & Golston at this time.

Initally I was in favor of us drafting Alan Branch at #6, but with his stock falling as a result of his combine workouts I'm having some reservations. If the team decides to draft a DT as opposed to DE, I am also impressed with Amobi Okoye, a very young player with a lot of up-side who (baring injury) could play for a long time in the NFL. I would be satisfied with either a DE or DT at #6 if they chose to stay put.

Re: Defensive End - How Big is Our Need?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;295024]Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've read about Carriker he sounds like a guy who plays with a high motor and is stout against the run, but his pass rushing abilities are lacking a bit. That concerns me. Plus I've read that he might be a better fit in a 3-4.[/quote]Yeah, that's generally the vibe.

Pass rushing skills tend to develop later in a guy's career than any other skills, so while he may never be a dominant pass rusher, theres a chance he gets better at it than scouts ever think he will be.

He's got the blend of size and atleticism we will need to compliment a speed rusher. The fact that he is stout vs. the run peaks my interest in him even more. He seems like the kind of guy that you could stick at LE, and he will keep your line from being weak vs the run for the next 12 years.

My point is that I'd rather take Okoye now, and reevaluate the DE situation later. Strange stuff can happen like Demetric Evans develops mad pass rushing skillz and earns the starting role at LE. Our DT situation has little youth beyond the pair of 6th rounders we took last year (well, 5th in Montgomery's case). If we can grow a starter out of Golston, that'd be fantastic, but 3-4 years down the road, we could have our hands on the most dominating force at DT in the league, and he'd only be 23.

Re: Defensive End - How Big is Our Need?
 

i agree with you about the biggest need being defensive tackle. but, i don't want Branch. so who would be the next choice? thats why i want Adams, to turn up the pressure on opposing quarterbacks

Re: Defensive End - How Big is Our Need?
 

I like Carter, I don't trust Daniels, however, I think if the Skins get a guy who can bring pressure from up the middle then that'll free up the D Ends. I like Okoye, they were talking about him on Sirius yesterday and said he's even quicker off the of snap than Sapp used to be, when he was young. If the Skins pass on Okoye, I'm not gonna be too pleased, however, I really hope they just draft a linemen. If they go corner, I might kill someone. I'm really hoping for Okoye.

Re: Defensive End - How Big is Our Need?
 

[quote=dmek25;295038]i agree with you about the biggest need being defensive tackle. but, i don't want Branch. so who would be the next choice? thats why i want Adams, to turn up the pressure on opposing quarterbacks[/quote]What becomes of Carter then?

I wouldn't be opposed to drafting Carter's replacement now, but what happens when if we were to get a Drew Brees effect, and Carter becomes a machine. You hurt your run defense bad if you play two undersized ends at the same time, so essentially with Adams it's him or Carter. That leaves three DL positions that still need to be filled.

Drafting Okoye gives us the interior pass rush that not even Adams can bring, and he's going to be better vs the run. Theres a chance that Carter doesn't pan out and you still have to fill 3 spots, but at least we are talking about a situation that CAN improve. If we take Adams, he becomes the RE no matter how good Carter becomes, which isn't a good thing.

Re: Defensive End - How Big is Our Need?
 

in my eyes the ends are only as good as the guys playing inside. If our tackles are getting doubled that frees up the end for one on one, or against a TE. Daniels is big and strong and can generate a pass rush one on one, as well as Carter. My most glaring need is for a DT who demands a double. When Grif was at his best two seasons ago down the stretch he demanded doubles and Joe wasn't all that bad. Which led to Daniels having some pretty big games at the end of the season. Plus, if the DT's are taking up space and holding up the guards and center, that frees up the LBs to make more plays against the run. I dont think anyone on our D line was playing up to those standards last year.

DT is definately the way to go. If we can trade down and get a later 1st and 2nd, then we could draft both. The draft is really deep at quality DT's and DE's.

Re: Defensive End - How Big is Our Need?
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;295038]i agree with you about the biggest need being defensive tackle. but, i don't want Branch. so who would be the next choice? thats why i want Adams, to turn up the pressure on opposing quarterbacks[/QUOTE]


I likes Gaines Adams also but I think the concern is about his size (despite the fact he could easily put on another 6-10 lbs.) and whether he would, or would not have to be a situational player since I'm convinced the team feels it can get another serviceable year out of Daniels. Like I said before DT or DE is fine with me. Adams at DE or Okoye at DT......How I wish we could land them both.....Just call it wishful dreaming.

For those concerned about the size of Adams, he's the same size Dexter Manley was playing at the same position. I like him, it's just a matter of how he would fit into the defensive rotation at this time.

Re: Defensive End - How Big is Our Need?
 

[quote=Longtimefan;295051]I likes Gaines Adams also but I think the concern is about his size (despite the fact he could easily put on another 6-10 lbs.) and whether he would, or would not have to be a situational player since I'm convinced the team feels it can get another serviceable year out of Daniels. Like I said before DT or DE is fine with me. Adams at DE or Okoye at DT......How I wish we could land them both.....Just call it wishful dreaming.

For those concerned about the size of Adams, he's the same size Dexter Manley was playing at the same position. I like him, it's just a matter of how he would fit into the defensive rotation at this time.[/quote]

Yeah but today's tackles are bigger than the ones Manley faced.

Re: Defensive End - How Big is Our Need?
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;295055]Yeah but today's tackles are bigger than the ones Manley faced.[/QUOTE]


For a player who relies on speed as opposed to power and strength, this could be to his advantage. Granted many tackles are bigger now than the one's Manley faced, around the league you see the smaller DE's having success against bigger guys using their speed and quickness.

Re: Defensive End - How Big is Our Need?
 

I think Carter really improved the latter part of the season, if he can pick up where he left off, I think we are in pretty good shape.

DE or DT either way, I also like Adams and Okoye. Can't have it all.

Re: Defensive End - How Big is Our Need?
 

I really like the idea of drafting Branch at DT. He is a beast in run support with tremendous size and power, something the defensive line lacked last year. He wouldn't need to start immediately, but if he rotated with Salevea at DT, he would be ready by (or before midseason). His play would boost the production of the other DL flanking him (Carter and Griffin) and free the linebackers up to make tackles.

Re: Defensive End - How Big is Our Need?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;295043]What becomes of Carter then?
[/quote]
Adams plays the opposite of carter. one of them would have to occasionally face the tight-end. but the colts have 2 very light ends, and they still get their sacks. like i said before, its just something they have, that knack for getting the quarterback. and Phil Daniels probably would be alot more effective being used as a situational pass rusher

Re: Defensive End - How Big is Our Need?
 

Another reason Branch would fit in our defensive scheme is that his abilities suit Salevea's particular position. While Griffin is generally used more to shoot gaps and penetrate, Salevea is asked more often to stuff the run and occupy blockers. When Salevea went down with injuries last year, his replacement (Cedric Golston) lacked the ideal size and strength for that role. As a result, opponents ran effectively up the middle, our LBs contended with OL, and our DBs had to make most of the tackles. Branch would fix that problem, keep Salevea healthy and rested, and allow Golston to occasionally give Griffin a breather (and allow Golston to develop as a gap shooter instead of run stuffer). In short, Branch could help our defense the way Dave Butz helped in the '80s.

Re: Defensive End - How Big is Our Need?
 

As a right (weakside) defensive end, Daniels is solid against the run and above average as a pass rusher. But on the left (strong) side, he lacks the size to contend with bigger tackles as well as tight ends, making him only modest in run-support. His age (34) means he will need to be relieved occasionally so he can be effective as a pass rusher; that would simply involve rotating in more players like Renaldo Wynn and Demetric Evans to maximize our pass rush.

Re: Defensive End - How Big is Our Need?
 

Am I the only one who saw Carter getting pushed all over the field the last game against the Giants by a backup TE?

Re: Defensive End - How Big is Our Need?
 

[quote=offiss;295089]Am I the only one who saw Carter getting pushed all over the field the last game against the Giants by a backup TE?[/quote]

Yeah I don't think you're telling us anything we don't already know, Offiss. Carter isn't the greatest against the run. But he did have a sack in that game against the Giants, as well as a batted ball at the line of scrimmage.

The whole point was to say that he was really coming on as a pass rusher, more than anything.

A lot of us here are saying it wouldn't be the best idea to draft Gaines Adams and line him up on the other side of Carter, because we'd have two ends who can get to the QB but are very vulnerable to the run.

Re: Defensive End - How Big is Our Need?
 

I would really like to see a DT or DE. I think Carter played well down the strecth last year and I think it was due to him getting used to the position again at full NFL game speed after taking a year off playing linebacker for the 49ers. What I didn't like seeing him due was out in pass coverage. I noticed he was covering backs coming out of the back field a few times. I don't think he should be doing that (he seemed to get burned a few times), any one else fo the same opinion?

Amoybi Okeye would be a good pick. He's a great player and he is only 19!! I really think it's pretty amazing that he was a DIV 1 football player at 15 years old. He's got great size and speed. He will be a great hole clogger up front.

Re: Defensive End - How Big is Our Need?
 

Now if we trade down I really see Allan Branch be able to be had in the middle of the first round. I think he has really slipped down the boards as of late.

Re: Defensive End - How Big is Our Need?
 

the d line got pushed around a bit in a few games. AC is certainly no run stuffer, but if we get our O going we'll build some leads & GW will turn em loose on the pass rush.

Re: Defensive End - How Big is Our Need?
 

[quote=JDALY27;295000]I don't like Daniels as a starter on the end. He is quality depth but should not be our go to guy at DE across from Carter. Draft DT or DE at # 6.[/quote]

No trades for No.6, please. No trading up or down. Our greed will get us in trouble. We should draft Adams or Okoye at No. 6. One of them, or both, will be available.

Re: Defensive End - How Big is Our Need?
 

Am I the only one who finds it absurd to heep praise upon Andre Carter for being able to "turn it on" for half a season?

Will we all sit here next year and be thankful if Andre gives us a solid performance for 8 games, while the other 8 he just uses up oxygen?

I wonder if Patriots fans, Colts fans or Philly fans rejoice with the fact that one of their starters actually decides to put forth some effort for just 50% of the season?

My, have our standards fallen.

Re: Defensive End - How Big is Our Need?
 

Like we've all said, he turned it on down the stretch so yeah, he deserves some credit for that. Hopefully he can pick up where he left off last year, if not we're in trouble.

I don't know what his problem was during the first half of the season, either way at least he flashed some promise and didn't turn out to be a total failure.

I don't see what's so wrong with recognizing what he did down the stretch, he really did play well.

Re: Defensive End - How Big is Our Need?
 

[quote=dmek25;295084]Adams plays the opposite of carter. one of them would have to occasionally face the tight-end. but the colts have 2 very light ends, and they still get their sacks. like i said before, its just something they have, that knack for getting the quarterback. and Phil Daniels probably would be alot more effective being used as a situational pass rusher[/quote]Doesn't this seem like it could be a problem to you? I'm not sure I'd cite the Colts defense as the standard for excellence in the NFL.

Re: Defensive End - How Big is Our Need?
 

I really think this is not just a pick on the D line this year but a high one in next years draft as well. So if I am right who is the best DE or DT to take in this draft and if we need to get the other next year so be it! Of the DE and DT is the best fit for us?

Re: Defensive End - How Big is Our Need?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;295153]I don't see what's so wrong with recognizing what he did down the stretch, he really did play well.[/quote]

And the reason I think that you have to recognize that is becasue he was playing in a different position for the 49ers. I took him a while to readjust, learn the system, and get comfortable. I think that Carter is the player we saw down the stretch, not early on.

Also, why does everyone complain that he is bad against the run? I think he is pretty good against the run considering he is primarily a pass rusher. Better LB play is what is needed behind him to fix the run on that side. (Remember how much better things got when Lavar replaced Holdman?)

Re: Defensive End - How Big is Our Need?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;295184]Doesn't this seem like it could be a problem to you? I'm not sure I'd cite the Colts defense as the standard for excellence in the NFL.[/quote]
i was more talking about their ends. they still get their sacks. i think their problem is more in the middle. i think D.T. is the answer, but i see branch as the second coming of big daddy, and that didnt work once before

Re: Defensive End - How Big is Our Need?
 

I would like to see Gaines Adams here, thats if we cant make a move for Calvin Johnson. Im not a fan of Jamaal Anderson at all, I would rather us pick Amobi Okoye or Laron Landry before we pick Anderson. I think we could be looking at some serious trade offers though because it looks like Quinn and Peterson will both fall to us, but we cant move back to far and screw ourselves out of an elite player. I think we would be fine with a Dline of:

Carter
Golston
Griffin
Adams

Re: Defensive End - How Big is Our Need?
 

[quote=dmek25;295216]i was more talking about their ends. they still get their sacks. i think their problem is more in the middle. i think D.T. is the answer, but i see branch as the second coming of big daddy, and that didnt work once before[/quote]I suppose two great pass rushers would make our pass rush a little better, but I can't imagine our defense getting better overall.

If we drafted Gaines Adams, I'd put him behind Carter on the DC and make him earn his way onto the field. I wouldn't play both on the same line though. At least not in Adams' rookie year.

Re: Defensive End - How Big is Our Need?
 

[quote=GiantsSuck703;295261]I would like to see Gaines Adams here, thats if we cant make a move for Calvin Johnson. Im not a fan of Jamaal Anderson at all, I would rather us pick Amobi Okoye or Laron Landry before we pick Anderson. I think we could be looking at some serious trade offers though because it looks like Quinn and Peterson will both fall to us, but we cant move back to far and screw ourselves out of an elite player. I think we would be fine with a Dline of:

Carter
Golston
Griffin
Adams[/quote]Fine until Brandon Jacobs puts up 250 on us. I have an idea, why dont we put Springs at DT? He's quick.

I think Adams would be a good pick, but we can't force him into a role his skills aren't adept for. Two speed rushers are pretty easy to nullify in this league if the QB is smart enough to step up. Adams has to replace Carter if he wants to play.

Adams' isn't a better end than Carriker, IMO. I would take Carriker even with adams available.

I still don't understand why so many people are latched on to Calvin Johnson's nuts. Sure, he very well could turn out to be the next Larry Fitzgerald, but with Moss on the roster already, why is that so exciting?

If you wanted a receiver that bad, why not suggest that we trade the 6th to Arizona for Fitzgerald and their 2nd? I know it's a bad deal, but at least its a better deal than trading up to get Johnson, not to mention that Fitzgerald DOESN'T have bust potential anymore (unlike CJ).

Re: Defensive End - How Big is Our Need?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;295276]Fine until Brandon Jacobs puts up 250 on us. I have an idea, why dont we put Springs at DT? He's quick.

I think Adams would be a good pick, but we can't force him into a role his skills aren't adept for. Two speed rushers are pretty easy to nullify in this league if the QB is smart enough to step up. Adams has to replace Carter if he wants to play.

Adams' isn't a better end than Carriker, IMO. I would take Carriker even with adams available.

I still don't understand why so many people are latched on to Calvin Johnson's nuts. Sure, he very well could turn out to be the next Larry Fitzgerald, but with Moss on the roster already, why is that so exciting?

If you wanted a receiver that bad, why not suggest that we trade the 6th to Arizona for Fitzgerald and their 2nd? I know it's a bad deal, but at least its a better deal than trading up to get Johnson, not to mention that Fitzgerald DOESN'T have bust potential anymore (unlike CJ).[/quote]


Oh yes, I can really see Brandon Jacobs putting up 250 against us. Seriously, lets go ahead and draft a DT who cant rush the passer, then we can stop the run, yet we still give up huge pass plays all game because our DB have to cover for 10-15 seconds, its the same situation as last year. Take the bears for example, two really good DT, they stopped the run in the superbowl, but they couldnt get to Peyton Manning and he torched them. Larry Fitzgerald is a possesion reciever, Calvin Johnson is not, hes tall and very fast, runs great routes and can go up after the ball, hes the complete package as far as recievers are concerned, thats why everyone is on his nuts, as you so wonderfully put it.

Re: Defensive End - How Big is Our Need?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;295275]I suppose two great pass rushers would make our pass rush a little better, but I can't imagine our defense getting better overall.

If we drafted Gaines Adams, I'd put him behind Carter on the DC and make him earn his way onto the field. I wouldn't play both on the same line though. At least not in Adams' rookie year.[/quote]

So what do you say we do then, we have to use the 6th pick on someone, and Geez why are you on Carrickers nuts so much?