How good will JaMarcus Russell be at the Pro Level?
 

It's not really Skins draft talk (thankfully), but it will be a hot topic over the next month and a week, so I opened a thread for it.

Will the team that drafts JaMarcus Russell get it's QB of the future?

Scouts have spent the past 2 months now oggling Russell's impressive arm strength and throwing fluidity. But can these things really tell us anything about Russell as a player? Probably not.

The only thing we can do right now to see how Russell will pan out would be to compare him historically to other guys who have made the college to pro jump and see if we can draw any parallels between him and guys with similar career paths.

Russell's career numbers at LSU were pretty good, and show him deserving of a first round pick. But whereas draft class 2007 comrade Brady Quinn leaves Notre Dame a 4 year starter, Russell leaves LSU an underclassman.

So what is the significance of college playing time? Can't an NFL prospect just spend more time on the sidelines learning the ins and outs and nuiances of the NFL game and let his athleticism take over when his time comes? Conventional NFL wisedom has been doing this for years? They call them, "developmental projects".

But I would argue that a developmental project is a non existant concept. The whole idea doesn't make sense. We all know a player is going to improve every year beyond his rookie year until his prime, and thus a rookie will always be inferior to a veteran of an identical career path. But who are the examples of guys who just CAN'T play for the first 5-10 years of their careers and then just turn it on? Players like Rich Gannon, Jake Delhomme and Trent Green come to mind. But let me ask you this: would ANY team [B]EVER[/B] take a QB who they [B][I]assumed would suck for the first 5 or so years of his career[/I][/B]? No chance. Developmental projects don't exist. Teams take the best possible QB they can get (for their system) to fill out their roster. The best [I]"developmental"[/I] QB should also be the best, young, [I]immediate impact[/I] QB! There's no reason to expect one to remain independant of the other.

Which brings the original question back into focus: What is the significance of College playing experience?

Now seeing that a QB will enter the NFL on a very similar career path to the way he leaves it (barring of course a career ending injury), doesn't this change the value of NCAA QB experience? It now appears that starting more games would ALWAYS be beneficial to the QB. That would mean that leaving school early, while potentially a smart business decision, would ALWAYS hurt the quality of a guy's career.

Is this even plausible? Let's go to the numbers:

For first round QB's (of the last 10 years) only, it seems like we [U]could--in fact--predict their successes at the next level based ONLY on the number of games they started in college[/U]. So if the scouts unianimously like a guy (because hes a first rounder), and he has a lot of college experience, recent history shows that this guy is a [B]virtual lock for success[/B]. (This is really good news for J. Campbell, although there were exceptions--with very awful college stats).

Chad Pennington: 51 starts
Philip Rivers: 51 starts
Peyton Manning: 45 starts
Carson Palmer: 45 starts
Jay Cutler: 45 starts
Donovan McNabb: 45 starts
Daunte Culpepper: 44 starts
Matt Leinart: 39 starts
Jason Campbell: 39 starts
Drew Brees: 37 starts (he was the first pick in the 2nd round)
Eli Manning: 37 starts

Look at that company. More importantly, compare that company to guys who didn't start a lot of games in college.

Patrick Ramsey: 32 starts
Rex Grossman: 31 starts
Joey Harrington: 28 starts
JP Losman: 27 starts
David Carr: 26 starts
Tim Couch: 25 starts
Ryan Leaf: 24 starts
Aaron Rodgers: 22 starts
Alex Smith: 22 starts
Michael Vick: 19 starts
Akili Smith: 19 starts

So where does Russell fit in? Over his career at LSU, JaMarcus Russell started 29 games. Not only that, but his career 62% completion is not really any better than another SEC QB who left school early (and started 2 more games). I'm talking about the incomprable Rex Grossman.

For sake of comparision, Brady Quinn started 46 games at Notre Dame and ranks up there with McNabb and Palmer with his college stats.

This study argues that with another year of experience, JaMarcus Russell would be a great NFL QB prospect. But by coming out a year early, history as least suggests the guy will have a rather mediocre NFL career.

Re: How good will JaMarcus Russell be at the Pro Level?
 

This doesn't mean that guys with more starts ALWAYS do better, but rather differenciates between two favorably (highly) scouted prospects (such as Russell/Quinn, Leaf/Manning...etc..)

But the concept basicially states that if guys like Vick, Rodgers, Smith etc... had stayed in school and performed well over the remainder of their career--they would have been great QBs in this league.

Then again, some of the guys on that list might have gone the Ron Pawlus route. Basically have a great two years, a disappointing junior year, and instead of opting for the draft, deciding to come back and effectively falling off the face of the earth. There's no guarentee that if Grossman came back and played for Zook as a Sr. that he would have even gone on the first day in the 2004 draft!

But that's one of the things this is testing for, consistent play.

Moral of the story: stay in school kids.

Re: How good will JaMarcus Russell be at the Pro Level?
 

I'm not entirely sold on Russell. could be another Dante Culpepper, with some NFL success. or could be another Akili Smith, who with Ryan Leaf formed the 2 biggest NFL busts ever

Re: How good will JaMarcus Russell be at the Pro Level?
 

Russell can have all the physical tools in the world but if he doesn't have NFL-level decision making (near automatic) ability then he'll be lumped in with your second group of guys.

Re: How good will JaMarcus Russell be at the Pro Level?
 

As far as staying in school, if you have a great Junior year you could leave a lot of money on the table. Even if you don't get hurt, look at Matt Leinart. Or you could get hurt.

As far as Russell, the guy has impressive physical stats. And looks like he could be great. I'm a firm believer that most everyone drafted during the first day can play football at the pro level. I feel it's more about the team that drafts them rather than the player. It all comes down to development of the player and scheme. Sometimes you'll see an extraordinary player who can excel anywhere, and sometimes you'll find a player who might be depth elsewhere excel with the correct team.

Re: How good will JaMarcus Russell be at the Pro Level?
 

Your list is pretty convincing.

However, based on choosing more college experience over those who leave early could cause some problems. Say a guy has 10 more career starts over the next guy beneath him just because he decided to stay in the league another year due to the current people declared for the NFL draft. Quinn could have left last year and still been a first round pick, but would he have been picked over the likes of Young, Leinart, and Cutler, maybe Cutler.

On the same note, a guy with no experience can be leaving because he just is that good, and there is no reason not to take it to the next level. Young did this, and he proved himself as a gamewinner when he finally got the chance to start last season.

Not disagreeing with your experience arguement, just stirring the kettle.

Re: How good will JaMarcus Russell be at the Pro Level?
 

The love of Russell is perplexing to me. But the more I look at him and all the available draft info/rumors/speculation I am wondering where this guy really stands as a draft prospect from the standpoint of the league in general.

We all know that everyone expects the Raiders are enamored with him. It seems everyone bases this thought on Oakland's draft history pretty much exclusively. As far as I know the Raiders have not said word one about Russell. With that being said, is this a case of a player getting overvalued by league experts because they expect him to be taken by the Raiders? If we could go back in time 5 or 6 weeks and remove Oakland from the entire process I think undoubtedly no one would be talking about Russell as the first pick. Would he even be a top ten guy? Something tells me that he is a lot closer to Jason Campbell in terms of talent than he is to say McNabb. That is, his immediate impact is probably limited and his long term impact is not certain. A QB in the top 10 of the draft to me needs to look and feel like a stud. Not a 'maybe' stud.

Why this overvalue?

Well certainly some of it is Johnny Come Latelys who just like to look smart and predict the draft. But I wonder if a high percentage of this Russell hyping is a result of pumping him up. Why would anyone NOT want the Raiders to take him at 1? If, like I believe, a good amount teams probably project Russell as a late 1st rounder then it is to their advantage to have him taking too high. It is a loss of value and therefore a potentail gain for them.

Of course there are too many 'experts' who are too dumb or oblivious to realize this and have just jumped on the bandwagon for Russell without realizing the level of disingenuosity. Voila, Russell is a top 10 pick.

I think it'll be very interesting to see where he goes if the Raiders work the Moss/Rodgers deal and end up taking Johnson instead. Someone will probably be dumb enough to have bought the hype but if not could he fall precipitously?

Re: How good will JaMarcus Russell be at the Pro Level?
 

I still feel Russell is a better prospect then Brady Quinn who had a much softer schedule and never showed up in the big games.

Re: How good will JaMarcus Russell be at the Pro Level?
 

[QUOTE=CooleyFan47;288981]On the same note, a guy with no experience can be leaving because he just is that good, and there is no reason not to take it to the next level. Young did this, and he proved himself as a gamewinner when he finally got the chance to start last season.
[/QUOTE]

Young proved himself as a play maker. Really as a RB at QB. His successes as a QB were few and far between. In fact he looked less a QB than Vick looked like at the same point in his career. I think it still remains to be seen whether Young will ever be a quality QB in the NFL. I know there are many who don't think he will. The league's history is riddled with athletic play making QBs who never did a damn thing because they couldn't actually, you know, pass the ball. Young hasn't shown anyone he can actually pass the ball effectively. Far from it.

Re: How good will JaMarcus Russell be at the Pro Level?
 

[QUOTE=Daseal;288984]I still feel Russell is a better prospect then Brady Quinn who had a much softer schedule and never showed up in the big games.[/QUOTE]
I think you could be right.

Re: How good will JaMarcus Russell be at the Pro Level?
 

I think Russell is really only going to be a product of the team he goes to, which unfortunately is looking like the Raiders. If they can provide some protection for him and Randy Moss stays, it could be a nice match.

As of now, Russell looks to me like someone who needs his receivers to make plays, rather than someone like Brady or Manning who make THEIR receivers look good.

Re: How good will JaMarcus Russell be at the Pro Level?
 

the thing is a lot of the low start guys happened to go to awful teams. peyton, mcnabb, rivers, etc generally went to teams with good gms that now have a history of building great team talent (colts, eagles, chargers). campbell also has the advantage of a strong offense around him, and so it'd also be pretty disappointing if he can't put it together.

Re: How good will JaMarcus Russell be at the Pro Level?
 

[quote=dmek25;288974]I'm not entirely sold on Russell. could be another Dante Culpepper, with some NFL success. or could be another Akili Smith, who with Ryan Leaf formed the 2 biggest NFL busts ever[/quote]

He's got D. Culpepper written all over him, the big difference is that unlike Dante he went to a big school & won a big bowl game in front of nat'l tv, hence the publicity before the draft.

I think the guy's a rare talent, but it's hard to tell if he has the presence & mental wherewithal to be great. He can definitely be good given the right circumstances, we'll have to see if the Raiders can improve that o-line first.

I honestly don't think he's going to have the success that our Jason Campbell will. Maybe I'm dreaming too much, but JC seems to have that undefinable ability that winning qb's have. I only see him becoming more of a leader, albeit a quiet one, and making big plays while not always racking up big #s. Looking back at the trade w/Denver, that was the best move Gibbs has made as Team Prez.

Re: How good will JaMarcus Russell be at the Pro Level?
 

Everyone is in love with his physical skills. They are off the charts. The only question is will he be able to handle the larger playbooks, reading NFL defenses and have good decision making. Brady Quinn is ahead of him here becasue he got to play under Weiss and a true pro offense. Quinn is probably ready to play now more than anybody. But the draft is all about potential and no one has more of it than Russell. That is why he will be the number one pick.

One thing that scares me is the whole Oakland organization. It seems that they change coaches every other year. Is this guy from USC going to be able to handle a pro coaching job, command respect in the locker room and deal with starting a rookie QB in the NFL? Hell no. Horrible hire! This was probably the worst hire I have ever seen. Al Davis is such a dumb ass. So Russell will probably have a new coach in two years and he will have to learn a new offense every other year. I think Russell is in a no win situation going to Oakland. Plus they have one of the worst lines in the NFL. So IMO he is not going to do well becasue of the unstable organization. If Russell had the chance to learn under a Jon Gruden or Cam Cameron then I think he would be just fine.

Re: How good will JaMarcus Russell be at the Pro Level?
 

I don't know how good Russell with be in the Pros, but nice post (yet again) GTripp.

Re: How good will JaMarcus Russell be at the Pro Level?
 

[quote=CooleyFan47;288981]On the same note, a guy with no experience can be leaving because he just is that good, and there is no reason not to take it to the next level. Young did this, and he proved himself as a gamewinner when he finally got the chance to start last season.

Not disagreeing with your experience arguement, just stirring the kettle.[/quote]Interesting point.

I don't see Vince Young as an exception to the arguement. I think Young made a good business decision to come out, but this arguement still thinks that he would have been a much better prospect had he waited a year.

His rookie season was pretty much what anybody would have expected from a rookie QB passing wise. Low completion %, high INTs. The Titans won more games because he made timely plays with his legs and just happened to stumble upon some hapless opponents (Giants).

But due to the results of this, I don't think theres ever going to be a prospect who is "just that good" or otherwise too good to return for another year. They can always better themselves.

Re: How good will JaMarcus Russell be at the Pro Level?
 

we will see if he is any good when he plays.

Re: How good will JaMarcus Russell be at the Pro Level?
 

Probably very good...........

Re: How good will JaMarcus Russell be at the Pro Level?
 

It's always difficult to predetermine how a player (espically a QB) will perform when moving from the college level to pro, only time will tell on that one.

Your post however does shed light on some interesting concepts. I'm just hoping that our QB (Jason Campbell) continues to mature at the rate we have hoped. That's the most interesting part of the upcoming season, watching the continued maturation process of Campbell.

Re: How good will JaMarcus Russell be at the Pro Level?
 

[quote=dmek25;288974]I'm not entirely sold on Russell. could be another Dante Culpepper, with some NFL success. or could be another Akili Smith, who with Ryan Leaf formed the 2 biggest NFL busts ever[/quote]

This guy had one of the best seasons ever played by an NFL QB just a few years ago. And now he's finished? I would think not. Let's see what he does this year with a good offensive coach and perhaps some more weapons around him. Although I'm not sure what the Fish have in mind letting go of Walker and McMichael. But the guy has not been the same w/out Moss.

Re: How good will JaMarcus Russell be at the Pro Level?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;289019]Interesting point.

I don't see Vince Young as an exception to the arguement. I think Young made a good business decision to come out, but this arguement still thinks that he would have been a much better prospect had he waited a year.

His rookie season was pretty much what anybody would have expected from a rookie QB passing wise. Low completion %, high INTs. The Titans won more games because he made timely plays with his legs and just happened to stumble upon some hapless opponents (Giants).

But due to the results of this, I don't think theres ever going to be a prospect who is "just that good" or otherwise too good to return for another year. They can always better themselves.[/quote]

Passing wise I thought he did better than anyone could have expected. 12td's and 13ints is not bad at all for a rookie. He played in a veer offense, the same as Alex Smith. Smith was god awful his first year. But you saw the big jump from year one and two with Smith and I think you will see the same with Young. But one thing this guy can do is just kill you with his legs. McNabb is the best passer/runner. He can kill you with both. I think if Young can stay with Chow he is going to be just as good as McNabb.

Re: How good will JaMarcus Russell be at the Pro Level?
 

[quote=skinsfan69;289015]Everyone is in love with his physical skills. They are off the charts. The only question is will he be able to handle the larger playbooks, reading NFL defenses and have good decision making. Brady Quinn is ahead of him here becasue he got to play under Weiss and a true pro offense. Quinn is probably [B]ready to play now[/B] more than anybody. But the draft is all about [B]potential[/B] and no one has more of it than Russell. That is why he will be the number one pick.[/quote]I dissagree with the entire notion that draft analysts push that one prospect can be better now, and somehow NOT the better overall prospect. I understand your point about Quinn's coaching, but it's not like Russell or any QB in D1 has to play playground-style because they lack coaching. Tom Brady did pretty well for himself after Weis left.

Now, it is possible for a guy to be a product of system, in college. But those guys do not end up being first day picks. Any scout that can't identify a guy as a product of his system with relative ease shouldn't be in the business.

My beef with the draft analysts theory has to do with what they THINK they know, but really don't, and are passing off as common knowledge. I have a problem with people in the mass media being of the opinion that Quinn can be better now, but Russell will be better later. No. This is wrong. If God told me that JaMarcus Russell was in fact (going to be) the best QB of this draft class, then I would have absolutely no reason in the world to expect any QB to have a better rookie season. Honestly, all the Charlie Weis coaching in the world is not going to help Brady Quinn if Russell is the better player. IF HES GOING TO BE THE BEST PROSPECT LATER, HE SHOULD ALSO BE THE BEST NOW!! Variatons from this general rule DO occur...but they can not be predicted.

(I'm not directing any of this at you Skinsfan69, this rant is entirely directed at people who get paid thousands of dollars to go on TV and give information that ignores logic)

So forget upside, I want to know who the better QB is. I reject the notion that Quinn can be better now and not later. I think Quinn is the better prospect for a multitude of reasons, maybe the biggest being that he stayed in school. But for the life of me I can't figure out what compells analysts to declare an inferior prospect to have enormous upside.

It's like JaMarcus Russell skinned his knee as a child, and instead of oozing blood, he leaked upside.

And none of this is his fault. He's in great position to become a millionaire at age 22. But what he gains now is essentially a trade off for the fact that (in my opinion in light of the data) hes not going to collect a big secondary deal. I think he plays out his 7 year rookie deal as a starter, and signs somewhere as a backup after that.

Re: How good will JaMarcus Russell be at the Pro Level?
 

[quote=skinsfan69;289050]This guy had one of the best seasons ever played by an NFL QB just a few years ago. And now he's finished? I would think not. Let's see what he does this year with a good offensive coach and perhaps some more weapons around him. Although I'm not sure what the Fish have in mind letting go of Walker and McMichael. But the guy has not been the same w/out Moss.[/quote]I agree with you. Culpepper is a very good, borderline great QB. He will be fine once he's healthy--assuming that time ever comes.

Re: How good will JaMarcus Russell be at the Pro Level?
 

i think russell will be a good pro qb,hes got the heighth,the arm,and the athletisism.plus hes an intelligent qb.

Re: How good will JaMarcus Russell be at the Pro Level?
 

[quote=skinsfan69;289051]Passing wise I thought he did better than anyone could have expected. 12td's and 13ints is not bad at all for a rookie. He played in a veer offense, the same as Alex Smith. Smith was god awful his first year. But you saw the big jump from year one and two with Smith and I think you will see the same with Young. But one thing this guy can do is just kill you with his legs. McNabb is the best passer/runner. He can kill you with both. I think if Young can stay with Chow he is going to be just as good as McNabb.[/quote]Yes, this is a common phenemenon. Rookie to second year tends to be a big statistical jump in passing. I expect Young to become a league-competant passer this year.

Alex Smith's rookie season was catastrophically bad. He was one rare exception to my prior argument.

Young's probably going to be better than McNabb in his prime.

Re: How good will JaMarcus Russell be at the Pro Level?
 

[quote=Longtimefan;289044]It's always difficult to predetermine how a player (espically a QB) will perform when moving from the college level to pro, only time will tell on that one.

Your post however does shed light on some interesting concepts. I'm just hoping that our QB (Jason Campbell) continues to mature at the rate we have hoped. That's the most interesting part of the upcoming season, watching the continued maturation process of Campbell.[/quote]Actually, this brings up the big idea here:

Quarterbacks do so much more and we have so much more collegiate data on them than any other position--possibly all other positions combined.

Why haven't scouts been able by this point to seperate busts from great prospects? Trial and Error was to be expected for a few years, but shouldn't the best scouts have been able to do the exact same research I just did and see that one prospect can not have more "upside" without being the best prospect in the present.

Re: How good will JaMarcus Russell be at the Pro Level?
 

smith didnt do to bad last year cause he had turner help him out.now turner is the coach of san diego,which will screw that teams chance of winning up.

Re: How good will JaMarcus Russell be at the Pro Level?
 

[quote=rvd420;289063]i think russell will be a good pro qb,hes got the heighth,the arm,and the athletisism.plus hes an intelligent qb.[/quote]Congrats on reaching 100.

Read the inital post in this thread.

Re: How good will JaMarcus Russell be at the Pro Level?
 

i did and i replied i think hell be a good pro qb duh.

Re: How good will JaMarcus Russell be at the Pro Level?
 

[quote=rvd420;289073]smith didnt do to bad last year cause he had turner help him out.now turner is the coach of san diego,which will screw that teams chance of winning up.[/quote]Smith just went though his natural progression. I'm sure Norv helped a little bit...but no matter who the coach was, Smith was bound to improve immensely over his abysmal rookie year.

He wasn't any good last year either, but he stopped hurting his team which was a big help for the 49ers to win 7 games this year.

Re: How good will JaMarcus Russell be at the Pro Level?
 

[quote=rvd420;289079]i did and i replied i think hell be a good pro qb duh.[/quote]Are you disagreeing with the arguement or just ignoring it?

Re: How good will JaMarcus Russell be at the Pro Level?
 

he was not that bad.he damn was sure better than his rookie year,plus san fran had no offensive line either.

Re: How good will JaMarcus Russell be at the Pro Level?
 

put it this way i think hell be a future pro bowler.

Re: How good will JaMarcus Russell be at the Pro Level?
 

[quote=rvd420;289083]he was not that bad.he damn was sure better than his rookie year,plus san fran had no offensive line either.[/quote]Well, Smith certainly had no help from his team in 2005. He had the emergence of Gore last year. But he's still not a great prospect.

Best case scenario for Russell would be Alex Smith. There's no way that Russell's rookie year would be as bad though. That year for Smith was all about Murphy's law; everything that could have gone wrong did!

Re: How good will JaMarcus Russell be at the Pro Level?
 

i agree.i didnt say smith was great i just said he wasnt THAT bad last year.

Re: How good will JaMarcus Russell be at the Pro Level?
 

[quote=rvd420;289089]i agree.i didnt say smith was great i just said he wasnt THAT bad last year.[/quote]I guess, yeah.

He may have been the weakest of the starting 32 QBs again last year, but he at least showed the potential to be a starter.

And he played some really strong games down the stretch.

Re: How good will JaMarcus Russell be at the Pro Level?
 

exactly.thats all i was sayin.

Re: How good will JaMarcus Russell be at the Pro Level?
 

I forgot about Walter, Gradkowski, and Frye. Smith outpassed these guys.

He also outpassed Vick, who probably has more total value due to his legs.

Re: How good will JaMarcus Russell be at the Pro Level?
 

vick sucks and is overrated.hes also a ball hog.thats why the falcons recievers could catch passes last season,no chemestry between them and vick.vick wanted to run the ball all the time.granted he did give it to warrick dunn,but thats probably cause he knew dunn would whoop his ass if he didnt.

Re: How good will JaMarcus Russell be at the Pro Level?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;289071]Actually, this brings up the big idea here:

Quarterbacks do so much more and we have so much more collegiate data on them than any other position--possibly all other positions combined.

Why haven't scouts been able by this point to seperate busts from great prospects? Trial and Error was to be expected for a few years, but shouldn't the best scouts have been able to do the exact same research I just did and see that one prospect can not have more "upside" without being the best prospect in the present.[/quote]

because they can't account well for the NFL suck factor. if anyone plays QB in oakland, they're going to suck. even peyton would look fairly average behind that line and with that running attack. when you're picked #1, you might get a stable team willing to build the right way (colts, eagles, chargers), or you might get al davis and a parade of coaches that shouldn't be in the NFL and have little authority within the organization. if you come into the NFL and all your team mates are malcontents and half-arsers, chance are you'll stop caring or have a hard time getting others to work harder on film study and passing drills, etc.