Mark Brunell, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Shawn Springs
 

I call them the over 30 club and I think we should get rid of mark, phillip, and renaldo not springs yet cause we are so scarce with Corners

But who thinks that brunell, daniels, and wynn should be sent packing

DISCUSS!!!!

Re: Mark Brunell, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Shawn Springs
 

Keep either Daniels or Wynn but not both. Injuries happen to the DL and it would be nice to have a vet on the bench who knows how to play - - even if he isn't going to come in and play at an All-Pro level. My preference would be to keep Daniels over Wynn, but it's only a marginal preference.

Get rid of Brunell only if you are CERTAIN that Todd Collins is able to step in and lead the team over a 4 game stretch. Because, if Campbell gets hurt, you have to have somebody play QB and the first person to suggest that Randle-El can do that also believes in the Tooth Fairy.

Collins has been in the NFL 12 years - it's not like this guy has a long future ahead of him - and he has started a total of 17 games. Ask yourself this; if he were a really good QB, wouldn't someone have given him a starting gig by now? The last time Todd Collins started a game was in 1997. If you cut Brunell, you have to pray Campbell does not miss even a series of downs OR you have to believe that Todd Collins can dash to a phone booth enter as a career back-up QB and emerge as Superman.

In the last 9 seasons, Collins has attempted a total of 22 passes. For his career, his QB Rating is 70.4 which is about the same as Kordell Stewart's lifetime QB rating - - and not too many folks think of Kordell Stewart as a great QB. Be very careful what you do with the QB position on this team.

Springs could be a cap casualty if they can't work out a restructuring that suits him. But if the "numbers work out" the Skins cannot afford to take the risk of cutting him. They just don't have the depth behind him to take that chance. We sort of saw that much of last season, no?

Re: Mark Brunell, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Shawn Springs
 

[quote=sportscurmudgeon;278274]Keep either Daniels or Wynn but not both. Injuries happen to the DL and it would be nice to have a vet on the bench who knows how to play - - even if he isn't going to come in and play at an All-Pro level. My preference would be to keep Daniels over Wynn, but it's only a marginal preference.

Get rid of Brunell only if you are CERTAIN that Todd Collins is able to step in and lead the team over a 4 game stretch. Because, if Campbell gets hurt, you have to have somebody play QB and the first person to suggest that Randle-El can do that also believes in the Tooth Fairy.

Collins has been in the NFL 12 years - it's not like this guy has a long future ahead of him - and he has started a total of 17 games. Ask yourself this; if he were a really good QB, wouldn't someone have given him a starting gig by now? The last time Todd Collins started a game was in 1997. If you cut Brunell, you have to pray Campbell does not miss even a series of downs OR you have to believe that Todd Collins can dash to a phone booth enter as a career back-up QB and emerge as Superman.

In the last 9 seasons, Collins has attempted a total of 22 passes. For his career, his QB Rating is 70.4 which is about the same as Kordell Stewart's lifetime QB rating - - and not too many folks think of Kordell Stewart as a great QB. Be very careful what you do with the QB position on this team.

Springs could be a cap casualty if they can't work out a restructuring that suits him. But if the "numbers work out" the Skins cannot afford to take the risk of cutting him. They just don't have the depth behind him to take that chance. We sort of saw that much of last season, no?[/quote]

Its really funny that you mention Kordell Stewart as an example...Mike Florio of profootballtalk.com has this thing called the "Kordoza Line." He uses the career QB rating of Kordell Stewart as the line that separates good QBs from bad QBs...his point is that Kordell Stewart was the closest thing to an exactly average QB in NFL history.

No real point to my comment, just thought it was a funny coincidence!

Re: Mark Brunell, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Shawn Springs
 

hopefully they can work something out with springs, i'd like to see him stay. i agree with SC in the area of keeping daniels and brunell, only for the reason of having quality backups. personally, i like brunell,daniels and wynn but it would not hurt my feelings if all three were cut. the skins definately need to trim the cap and replace a few of the older, expensive guys with some young, cheap ones.

Re: Mark Brunell, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Shawn Springs
 

I'd send them all packing. It's time to rebuild with younger players. What are the chances of Springs playing 16 games? Ain't gonna happen. So we might as well try and get somebody in here who we can groom, or to take over for Springs. Hopefully we can get Nate C. here for the right price. But if he's asking for 18mil bonus then let someone else pay it. He ain't that damn good.

With the lack of draft picks we can't fix the defense in one year. Folks need to be patient.

Re: Mark Brunell, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Shawn Springs
 

[quote=sportscurmudgeon;278274]Keep either Daniels or Wynn but not both. Injuries happen to the DL and it would be nice to have a vet on the bench who knows how to play - - even if he isn't going to come in and play at an All-Pro level. My preference would be to keep Daniels over Wynn, but it's only a marginal preference.

Get rid of Brunell only if you are CERTAIN that Todd Collins is able to step in and lead the team over a 4 game stretch. Because, if Campbell gets hurt, you have to have somebody play QB and the first person to suggest that Randle-El can do that also believes in the Tooth Fairy.

Collins has been in the NFL 12 years - it's not like this guy has a long future ahead of him - and he has started a total of 17 games. Ask yourself this; if he were a really good QB, wouldn't someone have given him a starting gig by now? The last time Todd Collins started a game was in 1997. If you cut Brunell, you have to pray Campbell does not miss even a series of downs OR you have to believe that Todd Collins can dash to a phone booth enter as a career back-up QB and emerge as Superman.

In the last 9 seasons, Collins has attempted a total of 22 passes. For his career, his QB Rating is 70.4 which is about the same as Kordell Stewart's lifetime QB rating - - and not too many folks think of Kordell Stewart as a great QB. Be very careful what you do with the QB position on this team.

Springs could be a cap casualty if they can't work out a restructuring that suits him. But if the "numbers work out" the Skins cannot afford to take the risk of cutting him. They just don't have the depth behind him to take that chance. We sort of saw that much of last season, no?[/quote]

C'mon dude. Brunell has to go. It's time to turn the page. Plain and simple. We already know what Brunell can do. A simple qualification for an NFL QB is he must be able to push the ball down field. So I would have Collins be 2nd string.

Re: Mark Brunell, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Shawn Springs
 

gotta keep daniels at least (he's cheaper than wynn). we'd at least have limited left depth at DE then.

Re: Mark Brunell, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Shawn Springs
 

We really need an influx of youth, I don't see the need for them [other than Springs who we should keep] the other 3? Is there really any question that they should be sent packing? Are we talking about all pro's here, or key contributers? No! As if we couldn't go 5-11 without these guy's!

Re: Mark Brunell, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Shawn Springs
 

[quote=skinsfan69;278298]C'mon dude. Brunell has to go. It's time to turn the page. Plain and simple. We already know what Brunell can do. A simple qualification for an NFL QB is he must be able to push the ball down field. So I would have Collins be 2nd string.[/quote]I don't see why that qualification applies to Brunell, but not Collins. Brunell has the better arm of the two.

I think every QB in the league (including Pennington) can "push the ball downfield" so that's a pretty questionable qualification.

Re: Mark Brunell, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Shawn Springs
 

How about when we draft a champ bailey or a fred smoot that we do not be so short sighted and get rid of them after we develope their talents, only for them to go somewhere else.

Re: Mark Brunell, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Shawn Springs
 

My plan would be along the lines of SC's.

Cut either Wynn or Daniels, only get rid of Brunell if we can find a capable #2, restructure Springs. I'd also add the cutting of Hall.

Re: Mark Brunell, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Shawn Springs
 

[QUOTE=4mrusmc;278323]How about when we draft a champ bailey or a fred smoot that we do not be so short sighted and get rid of them after we develope their talents, only for them to go somewhere else.[/QUOTE]

Champ was in his last year at Washington and wanted to get out. He was tired of losing. I can't say I blame him. The Redskins would have loved to have kept him.

Of all the blunders this team has made with personnel, you can't blame them for Champ clawing to get out.

But losing Smoot and Pierce were devastating.

Re: Mark Brunell, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Shawn Springs
 

[quote=GTripp0012;278312]I don't see why that qualification applies to Brunell, but not Collins. Brunell has the better arm of the two.

I think every QB in the league (including Pennington) can "push the ball downfield" so that's a pretty questionable qualification.[/quote]


The point is we know what Brunell can do. It's over for the guy. He just looks old when he's playing. He can't avoid the rush, he can't throw it deep. What does he do that's good at this point of his career? Nothing.

Re: Mark Brunell, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Shawn Springs
 

[quote=Beemnseven;278338] losing Smoot and Pierce were devastating.[/quote]


pierce, yes that hurt. smoot was not that good in the first place, no big loss there.

Re: Mark Brunell, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Shawn Springs
 

smoot had very good cover skills and he played through injuries and as for pierce that really hurt

Re: Mark Brunell, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Shawn Springs
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;278324]My plan would be along the lines of SC's.

Cut either Wynn or Daniels, only get rid of Brunell if we can find a capable #2, restructure Springs. I'd also add the cutting of Hall.[/QUOTE]

Welp, I'd keep Brunell, because I think Brunell is a team guy and he said he would restructure, and he really dosent have a ton of options. He said he would only go elsewhere if he could start (and thats not happening) and said the only place he would be content as a backup is DC. I actually hope we keep Brunell, since it will be a backup situation.

As far as Wynn vs Daniels, its really a no brainer that Daniels is the better player at this point. I really like both guys, and I really really like Wynn, but he's just not that good of a player at this point in his career.

Springs I wouldnt get rid of under any circumstnace yet, unless we sign two CB's, one being Clements.

Re: Mark Brunell, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Shawn Springs
 

amorentz:

I did not know about the profootballtalk.com use of Stewart as the emoodiment of an average QB. I was just thinking of a QB that I thought was no better than average and Stewart came to mind. From there, it wasn't hard to find his career QB Rating. And it's damned close to Collins'.


skinsfan69:

If you think Brunell is too old to get it done, why is Collins so much more capable. Collins was born in 1971; you can to the math there; he'll be 36 this year. Granted Brunell makes a whole lot more than Collins and so he takes up more cap room. BUT, you have to admit that Brunell has earned those extra dollars because he's actually led teams deep into the playoffs in his career. Collins may have done that too if he ever had the chance; but then again he was never good enough to convince a coaching staff that he was.


Beemnsevem:

The Skins really didn't want to keep Champ all that much. The reason I say that is that if they had given him the same contract offer that they gave Portis, Bailey would have taken it. What they gave Portis was about what Champ was asking but the Skins were not willing to pay. That last statement is not meant to bad-mouth Portis in any way. It is simply to observe that the Skins had the money and the cap room to pay a player that kind of money and they did not want to give it to Champ but did want to give it to Portis. The team made a choice here; the trade was not forced upon them.


Matty:

Agree with you that cutting Hall makes a whole lot of sense ... so long as Redskins One doesn't go charging off to sign Van der Jagt!

Re: Mark Brunell, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Shawn Springs
 

[QUOTE=sportscurmudgeon;278382]Beemnsevem:

The Skins really didn't want to keep Champ all that much. The reason I say that is that if they had given him the same contract offer that they gave Portis, Bailey would have taken it. What they gave Portis was about what Champ was asking but the Skins were not willing to pay. That last statement is not meant to bad-mouth Portis in any way. It is simply to observe that the Skins had the money and the cap room to pay a player that kind of money and they did not want to give it to Champ but did want to give it to Portis. The team made a choice here; the trade was not forced upon them.[/QUOTE]


Well then, that does change things. I was always under the impression that Champ wanted out. Of course, maybe he still did - but I didn't know that Portis signed for what Champ was asking.

But here's the ultimate question: would this team have been better served by Champ rather than Portis? I've always maintained that unless you're talking LaDanian Tomlinson, any team can get by with just about any running back.

So then, yet another f*** up by this front office.

Re: Mark Brunell, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Shawn Springs
 

Champ wanted out

Re: Mark Brunell, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Shawn Springs
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS;278384]Champ wanted out[/QUOTE]

At least, that's what we hope.

Re: Mark Brunell, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Shawn Springs
 

[quote=sportscurmudgeon;278382]amorentz:

I did not know about the profootballtalk.com use of Stewart as the emoodiment of an average QB. I was just thinking of a QB that I thought was no better than average and Stewart came to mind. From there, it wasn't hard to find his career QB Rating. And it's damned close to Collins'.


skinsfan69:

If you think Brunell is too old to get it done, why is Collins so much more capable. Collins was born in 1971; you can to the math there; he'll be 36 this year. Granted Brunell makes a whole lot more than Collins and so he takes up more cap room. BUT, you have to admit that Brunell has earned those extra dollars because he's actually led teams deep into the playoffs in his career. Collins may have done that too if he ever had the chance; but then again he was never good enough to convince a coaching staff that he was.


Beemnsevem:

The Skins really didn't want to keep Champ all that much. The reason I say that is that if they had given him the same contract offer that they gave Portis, Bailey would have taken it. What they gave Portis was about what Champ was asking but the Skins were not willing to pay. That last statement is not meant to bad-mouth Portis in any way. It is simply to observe that the Skins had the money and the cap room to pay a player that kind of money and they did not want to give it to Champ but did want to give it to Portis. The team made a choice here; the trade was not forced upon them.


Matty:

Agree with you that cutting Hall makes a whole lot of sense ... so long as Redskins One doesn't go charging off to sign Van der Jagt![/quote]

I'm not saying Collins should be the back-up. I would bring in someone to compete w/ Collins for the back-up job.

Collins does not have the mileage that Brunell has. Brunell has a list of injuries over the years that I think has done him in. His last year in Jack. he had an elbow injury to his throwing arm. Every year that he has been in a Redskin uniform he has had some type of injury. Now he's coming off MAJOR shoulder surgery. Time to turn the page!

Re: Mark Brunell, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Shawn Springs
 

[quote=skinsfan69;278340]The point is we know what Brunell can do. It's over for the guy. He just looks old when he's playing. He can't avoid the rush, he can't throw it deep. What does he do that's good at this point of his career? Nothing.[/quote]Right--because throwing it deep and avoiding the rush are the only two qualities that make a good QB.

Anybody got Ryan Leaf's number?

[quote=skinsfan69;278392]I'm not saying Collins should be the back-up. I would bring in someone to compete w/ Collins for the back-up job.

Collins does not have the mileage that Brunell has. Brunell has a list of injuries over the years that I think has done him in. His last year in Jack. he had an elbow injury to his throwing arm. Every year that he has been in a Redskin uniform he has had some type of injury. Now he's coming off MAJOR shoulder surgery. Time to turn the page![/quote]For the record, we can free just as much cap room by cutting Collins as cutting Brunell. Brunell's salary is far higher, but so is his release fee.

Who do you suggest we bring in to learn an admittedly complicated system? We have a guy who last year completed 63% of his passes for almost 7 yards an attempt. That's not going to be easy to improve on in the open market.

Re: Mark Brunell, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Shawn Springs
 

[quote=GTripp0012;278409]Right--because throwing it deep and avoiding the rush are the only two qualities that make a good QB.

Anybody got Ryan Leaf's number?

For the record, we can free just as much cap room by cutting Collins as cutting Brunell. Brunell's salary is far higher, but so is his release fee.

Who do you suggest we bring in to learn an admittedly complicated system? We have a guy who last year completed 63% of his passes for almost 7 yards an attempt. That's not going to be easy to improve on in the open market.[/quote]

Stats don't tell the real story. ESPECIALLLY W/ BRUNELL. If you want to keep around a guy who throws predictable 5 yard dink and dunk passes to the sidelines than fine. Let's pray JC does not get hurt. Just ask yourself this question. Could Brunell do what Jeff Garcia did this past year? And PLEASE don't bring up 05 cause we all know the defense and Portis carried us during that stretch. I still can't get over the 41 yards passing against TB.

Re: Mark Brunell, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Shawn Springs
 

I like Brunell but I think he should go personally. For his sake mainly. He's had a solid career and doesn't need to deal with all the negative bull directed his way all the time by fans here.

Re: Mark Brunell, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Shawn Springs
 

I'm all for the skins getting a little younger. The question is how are we going to get younger when we have only 1 top pick in the 2007 Draft. I've been an advocate of accumulating more picks this year if the opportunity is there and it makes sense. How many "young" talented guys can we pick up in FA? 1 or 2.

I agree w/ cutting either Daniels or Wynn? They would not be starters anywhere else. Only keep Brunell if he takes a pay cut. He's making starter $ and right now he's no more than a backup.

I'd like to keep Springs b/c I consider him a core guy. Let's try to restructure and take a gamble on him. We don't have too many more options in the secondary, even if we pick up a FA corner. When healthy SS is a top tier CB.

Re: Mark Brunell, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Shawn Springs
 

[quote=skinsfan69;278427]Stats don't tell the real story. ESPECIALLLY W/ BRUNELL. If you want to keep around a guy who throws predictable 5 yard dink and dunk passes to the sidelines than fine. Let's pray JC does not get hurt. Just ask yourself this question. Could Brunell do what Jeff Garcia did this past year? And PLEASE don't bring up 05 cause we all know the defense and Portis carried us during that stretch. I still can't get over the 41 yards passing against TB.[/quote]Fine, we get it. Stats matter except when talking about Brunell. He's different cause we don't like him. Okay guy, great argument.

He could do for us what Garcia did last year. Question is: can the Redskins be the team Philadelphia was last year.

TAFKAS makes a great point though. If you are Mark Brunell, do you really want to stay around and risk having to put up with the crap from the fans for another season?

Re: Mark Brunell, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Shawn Springs
 

if brunell had gotten a 2mill a year contract, he wouldn't get nearly as much hate. that 43$mill tag on his signing set expectations way too high though, and while he's not total crap, he hasn't really been a 6mill/year man either.

Re: Mark Brunell, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Shawn Springs
 

[quote=GTripp0012;278438]Fine, we get it. Stats matter except when talking about Brunell. He's different cause we don't like him. Okay guy, great argument.

He could do for us what Garcia did last year. Question is: can the Redskins be the team Philadelphia was last year.

TAFKAS makes a great point though. If you are Mark Brunell, do you really want to stay around and risk having to put up with the crap from the fans for another season?[/quote]

Stats don't mean a damn thing if you can't get your team in the end zone. Get your team in the end zone, move the chains and convert on 3rd down. Brunell failed in all of these areas. So this is why I think Collins should be 2nd string or let Brunell and Collins battle for #2.

I never said I did not like Mark Brunell. Personally I like Mark Brunell alot. I think some of the fans and local media have treated him like shit. He's a stand up guy and we all know he's good in the locker room. That was never my point. It's his on the field performance. If we cut him tomorrow how many teams in the NFL would pick him up? Probably nobody. Same with Wynn. Springs and Daniels should come back but both are not full time players anymore. Springs just can't stay healthy. We can't count on him. It's just time to move on. But because of the lack of quality depth and draft picks most or all will be back.

Re: Mark Brunell, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Shawn Springs
 

[quote=TAFKAS;278429]I like Brunell but I think he should go personally. For his sake mainly. He's had a solid career and doesn't need to deal with all the negative bull directed his way all the time by fans here.[/quote]

I agree with this. I always liked Brunell, still do. I think that the biggest problem that he faces is that the fans see him as a guy who is over the hill and sliding down fast and he sees himself as a guy who still has some juice left in the tank.

IMO he needs to go to a team with a west coast offense. He should do fine in a system like that until he gets hurt again.

Personally, I appreciate that Brunell was able to play "not to lose" in 2005. That style of play gave us the best chance with the skill we had that year (including his skill).

Re: Mark Brunell, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Shawn Springs
 

[quote=GoSkins!;278476]I agree with this. I always liked Brunell, still do. I think that the biggest problem that he faces is that the fans see him as a guy who is over the hill and sliding down fast and he sees himself as a guy who still has some juice left in the tank.

IMO he needs to go to a team with a west coast offense. He should do fine in a system like that until he gets hurt again.

Personally, I appreciate that Brunell was able to play "not to lose" in 2005. That style of play gave us the best chance with the skill we had that year (including his skill).[/quote]

This is what happens to most football players when they come to the end. They still think they can play and maybe they can but not at the same level that made them what they were. Brunell reminded me of a poor mans Steve Young. Now he's nowhere near that level he use to play at. It happens to everybody.

Re: Mark Brunell, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Shawn Springs
 

[quote=skinsfan69;278473]Stats don't mean a damn thing if you can't get your team in the end zone. Get your team in the end zone, move the chains and convert on 3rd down. Brunell failed in all of these areas. So this is why I think Collins should be 2nd string or let Brunell and Collins battle for #2.

I never said I did not like Mark Brunell. Personally I like Mark Brunell alot. I think some of the fans and local media have treated him like shit. He's a stand up guy and we all know he's good in the locker room. That was never my point. It's his on the field performance. If we cut him tomorrow how many teams in the NFL would pick him up? Probably nobody. Same with Wynn. Springs and Daniels should come back but both are not full time players anymore. Springs just can't stay healthy. We can't count on him. It's just time to move on. But because of the lack of quality depth and draft picks most or all will be back.[/quote]First of all, it's the stats that show how helpful a guy is in getting his team into the endzone, moving the chains etc. Anyway, it's a team game through and through. It wasn't Brunell who failed to pick up first downs, or score touchdowns, it was the Redskin's offense. Al Saunders on the playcalling, the receivers on the routes, the line in pass protection, the line, tight ends, and backs in the running game, AND the quarterback's ability to make good decisions and throw the football.

There's a certain method to the way team offense SHOULD be judged based on the order in which things are done. First and foremost, the line has to block (I would estimate that 80% of an offenses problems origniate from poor blocking. This is where a team has to look first). Secondly, there must be some sort of a running game if the line is opening up holes. If the back can't see the holes and get through them, the offense is going to struggle even if the blocking is there. Third comes the quarterback's role. If a team has suffient blocking and a good running game and still isn't getting it done, the blame probably falls on the QB and his receivers. The role of the playcaller supercedes this entire process. Each position player is dependant on the scheme to get him in a situation conducive to success.

During the first half of the season, when we had a league average offense, it was in my best estimation that the line and running game weren't getting it done. Some of this is attributable to the instability at the RB position, and to some questionable playcalling in enemy territory (particularly in the red zone and on the fringe of an compromised FG range. Seemed like Saunders was playing for the FG and Gibbs wasn't going to trust Hall/Novak from 50 yards away), but even so--even the least observant of fans would notice that the line was getting little push up front and letting defenses run free at the QB.

And then of course we put a QB in there with little experience and the offensive production went down a little bit, which all but proves to the objective fan that Brunell was doing his job well. On top of this, the line improved it's play immensely over the course of the season and JC got pressured quite rarely. Ladell Betts also became a star in the same offense where Clinton Portis failed (in 2006)--that speaks volumes.

I'll agree with that point that nobody wants him besides us. I think we can agree that he's still one of the 32 best QBs in this league and that some teams are currently starting QBs worse than Brunell (probably a lot of teams). However, no team is going to bench a younger starter just so they can start a 37 yr old caretaker who is good at his job. So Brunell's best chance for success would be to stay here as a backup and see if he ever gets another chance. But his best career move may very well be to retire.

Re: Mark Brunell, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Shawn Springs
 

We almost have to keep Springs, Brunell, and Daniels, because their is no real depth at their positions and if we got rid of them we are going to be extremely thin depth wise.

Re: Mark Brunell, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Shawn Springs
 

we're already extremely thin on depth :/.

Re: Mark Brunell, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Shawn Springs
 

[quote=That Guy;278533]we're already extremely thin on depth :/.[/quote]

Very true and that is why I think we need to keep these players, with the exception of Wynn, because of depth issues, and not to mention they have a pretty good locker room presence.

Re: Mark Brunell, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Shawn Springs
 

[quote=GTripp0012;278490]First of all, it's the stats that show how helpful a guy is in getting his team into the endzone, moving the chains etc. Anyway, it's a team game through and through. It wasn't Brunell who failed to pick up first downs, or score touchdowns, it was the Redskin's offense. Al Saunders on the playcalling, the receivers on the routes, the line in pass protection, the line, tight ends, and backs in the running game, AND the quarterback's ability to make good decisions and throw the football.

There's a certain method to the way team offense SHOULD be judged based on the order in which things are done. First and foremost, the line has to block (I would estimate that 80% of an offenses problems origniate from poor blocking. This is where a team has to look first). Secondly, there must be some sort of a running game if the line is opening up holes. If the back can't see the holes and get through them, the offense is going to struggle even if the blocking is there. Third comes the quarterback's role. If a team has suffient blocking and a good running game and still isn't getting it done, the blame probably falls on the QB and his receivers. The role of the playcaller supercedes this entire process. Each position player is dependant on the scheme to get him in a situation conducive to success.

During the first half of the season, when we had a league average offense, it was in my best estimation that the line and running game weren't getting it done. Some of this is attributable to the instability at the RB position, and to some questionable playcalling in enemy territory (particularly in the red zone and on the fringe of an compromised FG range. Seemed like Saunders was playing for the FG and Gibbs wasn't going to trust Hall/Novak from 50 yards away), but even so--even the least observant of fans would notice that the line was getting little push up front and letting defenses run free at the QB.

And then of course we put a QB in there with little experience and the offensive production went down a little bit, which all but proves to the objective fan that Brunell was doing his job well. On top of this, the line improved it's play immensely over the course of the season and JC got pressured quite rarely. Ladell Betts also became a star in the same offense where Clinton Portis failed (in 2006)--that speaks volumes.

I'll agree with that point that nobody wants him besides us. I think we can agree that he's still one of the 32 best QBs in this league and that some teams are currently starting QBs worse than Brunell (probably a lot of teams). However, no team is going to bench a younger starter just so they can start a 37 yr old caretaker who is good at his job. So Brunell's best chance for success would be to stay here as a backup and see if he ever gets another chance. But his best career move may very well be to retire.[/quote]


One reason the running game stalled was because opposing defenses were crowding the line of scrimmage. They simply did not respect our passing game in the least bit. When Brunell is our QB the opposing DC probably says this to the defense. " Shut down Portis/Betts and we will win so let's keep everyone near the line." And that's what the good teams did to us. We could not back the defense off the line of scrimmage.

When JC took over you could see the offense slowly start to open up. Slowly. You saw more deep crossing routes, seam passes and fade routes. These are passes Brunell did not even try to complete while he was playing so that limits what Saunders can call. Plus JC kept drives alive with his legs. JC needs to work on his mechanics this offseason a bit and we will see his passing percentage go up. Remember, it was down partly becasue he takes more chances downfield. Yes Brunell has a high % but let's not kid ourselves. These were dink and dunk passes that traveled less than 10 yards. He simply did not push the ball down field. This is partly why he was benched. If he was playing well no way Gibbs benches him. Joe Gibbs loves this guy to death.

Did the WR's and the line let Brunell down? Somewhat. But part of his problem is everything has to be perfect for Brunell to play well. He has to have his feet perfectly set. Protection has to be perfect and the WR has to be wide open. Otherwise he's not effective. In the NFL how many times is everything perfect in the pocket? I remember a play against TB where JC threw it off his back foot, zipped it between 2 defenders for a TD. I believe it was to Todd Yoder. No way in hell can Brunell have made that play.

So with all that being said I think it's time for Collins to at least get a shot at 2nd string. If Brunell beats him out than fine.

Re: Mark Brunell, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Shawn Springs
 

Let me clarify something here. I don't think Mark Brunell is a very good NFL QB anymore. He was about four or five years ago; he was OK two years ago; he's about average now.

The reason I think the Skins should be cautious in dumping him is that I have no idea if Collins can play at all. Knowing the system and running it in practice and against ham-and-eggers in exhibition games does not mean a damned thing. Collins may be the best back-up QB in the NFL; I don't know that. Collins may be a completely incompetent stumblebum too; I don't know that either.

But if the Skins cut Brunell - - and assuming it really does take time for any QB they might bring in as the third leg on the quarterbacking stool to master the nuances of Al Saunders' vaunted 701 page playbook - - then the Skins are rolling the dice and hoping that Campbell never gets hurt.

That's why they pay a front office staff good money. Those guys are supposed to be able to make those assessments and take sensible risks and have insurance policies in place for unexpected events. And we do know that they pay the front office staff at Redskins' Park top dollar...

Me? I'd keep Brunell just in case... I would not let him play unless Campbell had one of his appendages hanging on by a thread of skin and blood vessels, but I'd keep him around. I DO KNOW that he can play well in short bursts these days and maybe - - just maybe - - I'd catch him in one of those good bursts...

Re: Mark Brunell, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Shawn Springs
 

I'd be interested in knowing just how important a backup QB is anyway (I sense GTripp's mind churning right now). I mean I'm not saying a backup QB isn't important of course but is it significantly less important than having depth in other categories?

Re: Mark Brunell, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Shawn Springs
 

TAFKAS:

A back-up QB does not matter even a little bit - - until the #1 QB goes down for a 4 game stretch.

Look at what happened to the Eagles two season ago when McNabb has his sports hernia and they had to play Mike McMahon at QB. The season imploded; they finished last in the division.

Look what happened to the Eagles last season when McNabb tore up his knee. Garcia could actually play and they went into the second round of the playoffs.

If McNabb does not get hurt in either of the last two seasons, you'd never know who the Eagles' back-up QB was. But since there was that injury factor...

Re: Mark Brunell, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Shawn Springs
 

[quote=TAFKAS;278429]I like Brunell but I think he should go personally. For his sake mainly. He's had a solid career and doesn't need to deal with all the negative bull directed his way all the time by fans here.[/quote]

I agree also...

Re: Mark Brunell, Phillip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Shawn Springs
 

Cut Brunell bring back Ramsey to back up.......