Brandon Lloyd vs Javon Walker:
 

How much more expensive would Javon walker be to get from the Packers? He's forcing a trade by saying he doesnt want to be a pakcer, I think we could get good value from him. While I like Lloyd as a player he is still a bit inconsistant, but he does have that big play ability. He'll make a few catches that make us cheer to no end.

I have to think even though That Guy put out the stats of targets vs catches. You have to look at the QB and Oline -- most of those balls were probably coming early or offtarget too. Does targetted count if the ball sails way over his head?

Anyhow, just a question!

Re: Brandon Lloyd vs Javon Walker:
 

Huge difference in $... Walker wants top 5 WR money. He wants to leave the Pack because they won't give it to him. What makes you think we'd get him cheaper?

Re: Brandon Lloyd vs Javon Walker:
 

Walker is a #1 WR, we wouldn't have enough balls to go around between him, Moss and Cooley. He'll also be looking for a big contact as EEich already mentioned.

Re: Brandon Lloyd vs Javon Walker:
 

[QUOTE=Daseal]How much more expensive would Javon walker be to get from the Packers? He's forcing a trade by saying he doesnt want to be a pakcer, I think we could get good value from him. While I like Lloyd as a player he is still a bit inconsistant, but he does have that big play ability. He'll make a few catches that make us cheer to no end.

I have to think even though That Guy put out the stats of targets vs catches. You have to look at the QB and Oline -- most of those balls were probably coming early or offtarget too. Does targetted count if the ball sails way over his head?

Anyhow, just a question![/QUOTE]

I put up those numbers and while they are extremely subjective in terms of looking at a single receiver, you can absolutely use them to compare two guys.

In this case, someone said Lloyd had great hands because he makes all these exciting catches, and when you look at the numbers, you're talking about half a dozen circus catches on 110 attempts, and over 60 of those targets were not caught. Doesn't make him "bad" per se, because the passing game in SF sucked. But compared to a guy like Santana who was 9th in the NFC in targets and in the top 20 in %targets caught, and it tells you something.

Re: Brandon Lloyd vs Javon Walker:
 

And as for Walker, he's a much better receiver but we can't afford him. And he's not interested in being a WR2. He'll go somewhere and be the star receiver, no doubt,

Re: Brandon Lloyd vs Javon Walker:
 

How many passes that Santana caught were short routes that he used his speed to the house. I mean, the stats are just to subjective to matter. Also, if Lloyd comes here, I think he may be the primary receiver (hopefully Santana can continue to put up career numbers, but Im not banking on it).

Re: Brandon Lloyd vs Javon Walker:
 

Lloyd our primary receiver??

Moss is clearly our go to guy, I'm not sure why you still doubt his abilities after the kind of season he had, Daseal.

Re: Brandon Lloyd vs Javon Walker:
 

[QUOTE=Daseal]How many passes that Santana caught were short routes that he used his speed to the house. [/QUOTE]

Obviously short swing passes and screens are higher percentage catches, which is why most of the top guys in the %target/catch stats are RB's. And certainly Santana had some amazing yards after catch numbers this year. But he caught plenty of deep passes, too, or maybe you forgot a certain game at Texas Stadium?

And quite honestly, there's no reason Lloyd couldn't have been doing the same thing, if he was capable. But since he didn't....

[QUOTE=Daseal]I mean, the stats are just to subjective to matter. [/QUOTE]

If that were true, the Niners would not be parting with Lloyd because he'd be locked up in a humongous contract. They certainly have the cap room.

You can choose to analyze players subjectively or objectively. There's a reason we keep track of stats in games like football, because at the end of the day, you can measure them and say who the champs are and who the chumps are.

[QUOTE=Daseal]Also, if Lloyd comes here, I think he may be the primary receiver (hopefully Santana can continue to put up career numbers, but Im not banking on it).[/QUOTE]

That's the funniest thing I've heard all day. A sixth year all-pro, who's averaged 1200 yards and 8 TD's a season the past 3 years, at the prime of his career, would be demoted to WR2 so Brandon Lloyd could be the "primary receiver"?

Drink up, buddy. There's still plenty of time to be plastered before lunch. :party-smi

Re: Brandon Lloyd vs Javon Walker:
 

[QUOTE=Daseal]How much more expensive would Javon walker be to get from the Packers? He's forcing a trade by saying he doesnt want to be a pakcer, I think we could get good value from him. While I like Lloyd as a player he is still a bit inconsistant, but he does have that big play ability. He'll make a few catches that make us cheer to no end.

I have to think even though That Guy put out the stats of targets vs catches. You have to look at the QB and Oline -- most of those balls were probably coming early or offtarget too. Does targetted count if the ball sails way over his head?

Anyhow, just a question![/QUOTE]

Brandon Lloyd didn't tear his ACL last year. Do you really want a receiver who most likely will not be 100% next year. I would much rather have Brandon Lloyd, as long as we can work out a trade with a coulple of mid round picks (this year and next). If we can't work this out we should go after Givens.

Re: Brandon Lloyd vs Javon Walker:
 

Good point about Walker's injury, but that's also what I think will keep him from getting the money he wants.

I hope I'm wrong about Santana Moss, but he had the best year of his career and it's not fair to expect that to continue. If it does, I'll be extremely excited, but until then I'm still going to stay skeptical.

Want some stats: the only games that Moss got over 100 yards in were against teams with a pass defense ranked #20 or worse. (Thanks to ESPN towards the end of the season for the stat)

Re: Brandon Lloyd vs Javon Walker:
 

Moss also played the majority of the season with no true #2 WR to take the pressure off him and he still put up big numbers.

I wouldn't worry too much about Moss, he might not put up 1400 again, but he won't have to.

With capable WRs around him he will be even more dangerous.

Re: Brandon Lloyd vs Javon Walker:
 

I agree no that moss will have an ok receiving core around him he wont have to do as much as he did last year but if he does its all good.

Re: Brandon Lloyd vs Javon Walker:
 

I am stunned that Lloyd's name is in the same line with Walker.

Re: Brandon Lloyd vs Javon Walker:
 

[QUOTE=Daseal]Want some stats: the only games that Moss got over 100 yards in were against teams with a pass defense ranked #20 or worse. (Thanks to ESPN towards the end of the season for the stat)[/QUOTE]

That's a lovely stat that's utterly meaningless, and do you know why? Even the most elite WR's in the league don't get more than 6 or 7 100 yard games a year. In '04, Chad Johnson did it a whopping 3 times. Brandon Stokley did it 5 times. Does that mean Stokley is better than Chad? Of course not.

So in effect you're cutting your sample size in half before you start looking at quality of pass defense, and then saying, "look, he's no good against tough pass defenses!".

If you want to find ways to make the stats "prove" your opinion that Santana sucks, you can do it. But I don't think there are too many people here, in Redskin Park, or at the All-Pro Committee who are going to agree with you.

Re: Brandon Lloyd vs Javon Walker:
 

[QUOTE=9erman]I am stunned that Lloyd's name is in the same line with Walker.[/QUOTE]

We're simply comparing our options, no one is putting them in the same class of player, relax bro.

Re: Brandon Lloyd vs Javon Walker:
 

I'm in no way trying to say Santana sucks, but I think we need to look at the very possible reality that he might not repeat his stats. Someone earlier said stats show the true picture, so I tossed that out there to show that it's not like he was torching anyone great. While he had some huge games, namely Dallas I (as far as importance of his catches) until he has a repeat performance I'm going to be skeptical of him as a true #1. I don't think that's too unrealistic.

Re: Brandon Lloyd vs Javon Walker:
 

[QUOTE=Daseal]Want some stats: the only games that Moss got over 100 yards in were against teams with a pass defense ranked #20 or worse. (Thanks to ESPN towards the end of the season for the stat)[/QUOTE]
Too bad your stat is wrong

His hundred yard games were against:
Dallas (11th pass defense)
Denver (29th pass defense)
Kansas City (30th pass defense)
San Francisco (32nd pass defense)
New York (27th pass defense)
Seattle(playoffs) (25th pass defense)

He also had 96 yards against chicago, who had the 5th best pass defense

Most of his 100 yard games were against teams with bad pass defenses but not all of them

Re: Brandon Lloyd vs Javon Walker:
 

[QUOTE=Daseal]I'm in no way trying to say Santana sucks, but I think we need to look at the very possible reality that he might not repeat his stats. Someone earlier said stats show the true picture, so I tossed that out there to show that it's not like he was torching anyone great. While he had some huge games, namely Dallas I (as far as importance of his catches) until he has a repeat performance I'm going to be skeptical of him as a true #1. I don't think that's too unrealistic.[/QUOTE]

One of the other things the stats don't show: double coverage.

The impact of Patten going done was very significant. Moss was the only WR that anyone had to worry about for half the season. If we do add Lloyd and Randel El, the impact on the passing game for the TEAM (this isn't fantasy football, Moss' numbers don't matter, the teams do) will be highly significant.

SEA was in the Super Bowl and we weren't because our passing game needed some Viagra. We aren't likely to upgrade at QB. Upgrading at WR2 and WR3 is far less expensive and will get us much closer to where we want to be.

Re: Brandon Lloyd vs Javon Walker:
 

[QUOTE=Daseal]I'm in no way trying to say Santana sucks, but I think we need to look at the very possible reality that he might not repeat his stats. Someone earlier said stats show the true picture, so I tossed that out there to show that it's not like he was torching anyone great. While he had some huge games, namely Dallas I (as far as importance of his catches) until he has a repeat performance I'm going to be skeptical of him as a true #1. I don't think that's too unrealistic.[/QUOTE]

Nothing wrong with being a bit skeptical until he proves he can do it again, but if you're skeptical of Moss, it seems odd you would say Lloyd could be our #1, when he hasn't had anything close to the kind of season Moss had last year.

Re: Brandon Lloyd vs Javon Walker:
 

With a solid group of WRs around him, in all likelihood Moss's numbers will drop a bit, but that won't mean he's not a capable #1 WR. Stats are nice but they don't always tell the whole story.

Re: Brandon Lloyd vs Javon Walker:
 

It's not like last year was the first year Moss put up good stats though. In 2003, he had 74 catches, 1105 yards and 10 TDs. In 2004 he only had 45 catches, but he did finish with nearly 900 yards receiving (not #1 receiver stats, but I don't think he was the Jets top option that year anyway).

Re: Brandon Lloyd vs Javon Walker:
 

Moss is a player, end of story.

Re: Brandon Lloyd vs Javon Walker:
 

[quote]when he hasn't had anything close to the kind of season Moss had last year[/quote]
I'm saying he could end up our #1, not that he comes in that way. While Moss has had some solid years, he's had some down years and some injuries. I'll continue to be skeptical till I see it for another year, and honestly I don't care what he does as long as we're winning =p

Re: Brandon Lloyd vs Javon Walker:
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]It's not like last year was the first year Moss put up good stats though. In 2003, he had 74 catches, 1105 yards and 10 TDs. In 2004 he only had 45 catches, but he did finish with nearly 900 yards receiving (not #1 receiver stats, but I don't think he was the Jets top option that year anyway).[/QUOTE]

Remember when he came last year, he noted how Coles had like 90 catches and that if he had that many oppurtunities to catch the ball that he could have easily put up big time numbers. I don't know though if he delivered on that promise. I mean 1483 yards thats like only, 14.8 football fields.

Re: Brandon Lloyd vs Javon Walker:
 

[QUOTE=Daseal]I'm saying he could end up our #1, not that he comes in that way. While Moss has had some solid years, he's had some down years and some injuries. I'll continue to be skeptical till I see it for another year, and honestly I don't care what he does as long as we're winning =p[/QUOTE]

The great thing about this is that if God fobid Moss gets hurt we'll have a solid Reciever by commitee with Randle El, Lloyd, Patten, Cooley, and Portis (Even though I have a feeling that Patten might get cut if we get Antwan and Lloyd).

Re: Brandon Lloyd vs Javon Walker:
 

Cap wise, we shouldn't sign Randle-EL and Lloyd. Heh! We still have Taylor Jacobs on the roster right?

Re: Brandon Lloyd vs Javon Walker:
 

walker is way better. more expensive, but more productive. i don't think we'll try for or get him though.

Re: Brandon Lloyd vs Javon Walker:
 

javon walker hands down... even coming off of last season's injury.

Re: Brandon Lloyd vs Javon Walker:
 

[QUOTE=itvnetop]javon walker hands down... even coming off of last season's injury.[/QUOTE]Factoring in the injury maybe Lloyd has the edge. I prefer the value of Lloyd either way.

Re: Brandon Lloyd vs Javon Walker:
 

with the picks given up, i don't think you can really call lloyd a "value" unless he's going to come in and put up 1200 yards.

Re: Brandon Lloyd vs Javon Walker:
 

If you add up the last 3 years for Lloyd he only then can be compared with moss's last year.

I am confused. Walker is still with Greenbay, right? No matter how upset he is why would Greenbay let him go. They have tons of space and they aren't paying walker shit...?

Re: Brandon Lloyd vs Javon Walker:
 

they may let him go caue he threatened to sit out. I think anyone that wants him has a super long shot, cause GB needs compensation and walker has to be happy with the new team and the new deal.

Re: Brandon Lloyd vs Javon Walker:
 

[QUOTE=That Guy]with the picks given up, i don't think you can really call lloyd a "value" unless he's going to come in and put up 1200 yards.[/QUOTE]

I don't think that's true because this year's draft pool is really light in quality WR's anyway, and WR's are so hit or miss in the draft anyway. Donald Driver was a 7th round pick! Jacquez Green was a 2nd round pick! Get me the hell out of that mess... a 3rd and a 4th rounder are not bad at all for this guy. Sure, we may have struck gold 3 years from now with a rookie we took in the 3rd, or we may have struck out.

By the time you find out whether you got Driver or Jacquez Green, it's basically a moot point anyway!

Re: Brandon Lloyd vs Javon Walker:
 

To put it another way... I take you back to the 1995 NFL draft.. here are the WR's selected:

[CODE]
1 1 4 4 Michael Westbrook Redskins Colorado
2 1 8 8 Joey Galloway Seahawks Ohio State
3 1 10 10 J.J. Stokes 49ers UCLA
4 2 15 47 Frank Sanders Cardinals Auburn
5 2 29 61 Jimmy Oliver Chargers Texas Christian
6 3 3 67 Chris Sanders Oilers Ohio State
7 3 14 78 Chris T. Jones Eagles Miami (FL)
8 3 17 81 Tamarick Vanover Chiefs Florida State
9 3 26 90 Antonio Freeman Packers Virginia Tech
10 4 9 107 Tyrone Davis Jets Virginia
11 4 12 110 Eric Bjornson Cowboys Washington
12 4 15 113 Justin Armour Bills Stanford
13 4 18 116 Jack Jackson Bears Florida
[/CODE]

You want to talk about navigating a minefield? :vomit: Of all those bums, only Galloway and Freeman ever did anything.

Re: Brandon Lloyd vs Javon Walker:
 

yeah you have a point. the thing is the 3rd on a TE or OL or LB or CB could have been a starter or key backup. at WR there's no way i'd expect a 3rd rounder to come in and do anything his first year.

Re: Brandon Lloyd vs Javon Walker:
 

[QUOTE=dgack]To put it another way... I take you back to the 1995 NFL draft.. here are the WR's selected:

[CODE]
1 1 4 4 Michael Westbrook Redskins Colorado
2 1 8 8 Joey Galloway Seahawks Ohio State
3 1 10 10 J.J. Stokes 49ers UCLA
4 2 15 47 Frank Sanders Cardinals Auburn
5 2 29 61 Jimmy Oliver Chargers Texas Christian
6 3 3 67 Chris Sanders Oilers Ohio State
7 3 14 78 Chris T. Jones Eagles Miami (FL)
8 3 17 81 Tamarick Vanover Chiefs Florida State
9 3 26 90 Antonio Freeman Packers Virginia Tech
10 4 9 107 Tyrone Davis Jets Virginia
11 4 12 110 Eric Bjornson Cowboys Washington
12 4 15 113 Justin Armour Bills Stanford
13 4 18 116 Jack Jackson Bears Florida
[/CODE]

You want to talk about navigating a minefield? :vomit: Of all those bums, only Galloway and Freeman ever did anything.[/QUOTE]

Frank Sanders had some decent years.

Re: Brandon Lloyd vs Javon Walker:
 

i don't like either. they both have attitude problems. i would have reservations about signing loyd as an ufa let alone giving 2 picks for him. u could get a quality lb in the 3rd round this year.

Re: Brandon Lloyd vs Javon Walker:
 

[QUOTE=81forHOF]i don't like either. they both have attitude problems. i would have reservations about signing loyd as an ufa let alone giving 2 picks for him. u could get a quality lb in the 3rd round this year.[/QUOTE]

i hear you, but what's done is done. hopefully we don't overpay him. the good news is he's 24 and he put up yards in a terrible offense and he can leap and make roy williams type catches. The bad news is he can also drop easy balls and has some character issues that may or may not go away with a change of scenery (pointing blame at the qb when he misses catches, focusing too much on his rap "career" and being pulled aside multiple times last season by his head coach to discuss his attitude problems.)


Winning should help, and he should be able to contribute. If he learns to shut up and catch consistantly, he's an open field threat and could more than just a classic possession guy. We'll see...

Re: Brandon Lloyd vs Javon Walker:
 

ohh the good old days with michael westbrook....

[QUOTE=dgack]To put it another way... I take you back to the 1995 NFL draft.. here are the WR's selected:

[CODE]
1 1 4 4 Michael Westbrook Redskins Colorado
2 1 8 8 Joey Galloway Seahawks Ohio State
3 1 10 10 J.J. Stokes 49ers UCLA
4 2 15 47 Frank Sanders Cardinals Auburn
5 2 29 61 Jimmy Oliver Chargers Texas Christian
6 3 3 67 Chris Sanders Oilers Ohio State
7 3 14 78 Chris T. Jones Eagles Miami (FL)
8 3 17 81 Tamarick Vanover Chiefs Florida State
9 3 26 90 Antonio Freeman Packers Virginia Tech
10 4 9 107 Tyrone Davis Jets Virginia
11 4 12 110 Eric Bjornson Cowboys Washington
12 4 15 113 Justin Armour Bills Stanford
13 4 18 116 Jack Jackson Bears Florida
[/CODE]

You want to talk about navigating a minefield? :vomit: Of all those bums, only Galloway and Freeman ever did anything.[/QUOTE]

Re: Brandon Lloyd vs Javon Walker:
 

[QUOTE=dgack]To put it another way... I take you back to the 1995 NFL draft.. here are the WR's selected:

[CODE]
1 1 4 4 Michael Westbrook Redskins Colorado
2 1 8 8 Joey Galloway Seahawks Ohio State
3 1 10 10 J.J. Stokes 49ers UCLA
4 2 15 47 Frank Sanders Cardinals Auburn
5 2 29 61 Jimmy Oliver Chargers Texas Christian
6 3 3 67 Chris Sanders Oilers Ohio State
7 3 14 78 Chris T. Jones Eagles Miami (FL)
8 3 17 81 Tamarick Vanover Chiefs Florida State
9 3 26 90 Antonio Freeman Packers Virginia Tech
10 4 9 107 Tyrone Davis Jets Virginia
11 4 12 110 Eric Bjornson Cowboys Washington
12 4 15 113 Justin Armour Bills Stanford
13 4 18 116 Jack Jackson Bears Florida
[/CODE]

You want to talk about navigating a minefield? :vomit: Of all those bums, only Galloway and Freeman ever did anything.[/QUOTE]

Chris Sanders' son played young Ray Charles in the movie Ray...does that count for anything?