Disgusting
 

[url]http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=1792200[/url]


This is one of the worst articles that I have read in a long time. The lack of respect that is show to Pat Tillman and the Tillman family is disgusting. I am ashamed of this kid and his lack of respect for a man who fought for him to write this terrible article.

Unreal. This is just a stupid publicity stunt by this little bastard. Its gonna blow up in his face dearly. I just MIGHT listen to the argument that Tillman got unessacary publicity and that it defaced what the other members of the army who parished did. But Rest Assured, Tillman is a hero, as is every single other member of the army, navy , marines. This is freaking BS.

That's almost worth a drive to Amherst.

that's one of the most disgusting articles I've ever read. he says "I could tell he was that type of macho guy, from his scowling, beefy face on the CNN pictures." HE WAS PLAYING FOOTBALL YOU MORON!! Do you expect him to be smiling ear to ear telling everyone how much he's enjoying himself? And if he's referring to his pictures as an enlisted man, can someone tell me when they'e ever seen a soldier in uniform showing emotion during marches or training? You do that and your likely to be down on the ground giving 200 pushups quicker than you could blink. I hate when people like this guy have media access and use it to mouth off about something that they don't fully understand. I think the word he used to describe his vision of Tillman, perfectly fits the writer himself because he showed himself to be a pendejo like no other.

Pat Tillman, and the rest of the armed forces, did something greater than defending themselves or their freedom: they fought to defend someone else's freedom!

Well if anyone is up to go and have a talk with this PUNK, Im in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's on CNN!
 

It made the CNN web page! He is going to raise a real backlash, I'm sure!

I don't agree with him, but he's entitled to his opinion just like you are. Is Pat Tillman a hero? Maybe. What horribly heroic action did he take? Did he lay down his life for 20 of his other men? No. He joined the Rangers and had an unfortunate accident happen to him, I think it's a little overzealous to call him a hero. I feel heroes are people that really totally change the face of something. Pat Tillman didn't do that. He's a man who was famous, that just happened to die in combat. He's no more of a hero than anyone else who has died in Iraq. This whole "defending our Freedom" thing kind of makes me sick. He's not defending my freedom in Iraq. My freedom was never jeopardized by Saddam.

It would take my about 4 pages worth of essay to explain my stance on the above. It's not lack of love for my country, or the men and women in the service (which I have quite a few family and friends in) but the war is unnecessary. Pat Tillman should have never been killed, because he should have never been there.

The term "hero" get's tossed around like a rag-doll in times of war. Everyone suddenly becomes a hero. The armed forces do their jobs, and they do them well. However, I don't get entitled as a hero if there's an unfortunate accident and I die. I'm an idiot who got stuck in an industrial machine. I think a hero is the man who sacrifices himself for the rest of the platoon. A hero is someone who saves the lives of his fellow soldiers.

Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm just saying that Pat Tillman get's too much press and our society likes the word hero. Hero's are rare. Pat Tillman did a noble thing in turning down the money and fighting, although the kid has a valid point that it could be seen as stupid. There's a very thin line between brave and stupid.

In closing. Let the kid say how he feels. Or is it going back to after 9/11 when the rednecks beat up anyone who looked as if they were from the middle east. Or people beating other people up for not standing up during "America the beautiful" (which holds no disrespect.) It's simply form of opinion, and Pat Tillman knew what chances he was taking heading into battle. He's no less a hero than the 10 who died via carbomb today.

Here's a novel idea. Let's get the fuck out of there and we won't have any more "heroes." That's fine by me. I'd rather be heroless and still have families with loved ones intact.

I think the word he used to describe his vision of Tillman, perfectly fits the writer himself because he showed himself to be a pendejo like no other.[/QUOTE]
You took the word's right out of my mouth!
To bad that fucking PENDEJO! Can't even realize that if it wasn't for pepole like Tillman he wouldn't be able to right his moronic article! I say send him back home! He doesn't deserve the right's brave men and women like Tillman gave there life's for!

Unbelievable! I'd like to know which Puerto Rican neighborhood he's talking about because as a Puerto Rican myself I can tell you there isn't a single neighborhood that would feel that way about Tillman or anyone else who has made the brave choice to defend this nation at the risk of their own lives. It's the Pat Tillman's of this world that allow this guy to write such outrageous articles, he should be grateful

Daseal: Pat Tillman was killed in Afghanistan. I believe that is certainly relevant to 9/11.

Also, while I'm in complete agreement about freedom of the press and freedom of speech and conscience, I feel it is the responsibility of those who disagree with the student at Amhearst to speak out against those views. That's how a free society works. If you say something I disagree with, I don't silence you; I respond in kind. And for the record, I don't think people are "entitled" to hold false views. You are not entitled to believe that 2+2=5.

So, is this student's view false? Well, Tillman had every oportunity NOT to serve his country. He gave up a lucrative job that I am sure provided all the macho thrills he needed. Further, his fame and fortune in the NFL are the dream of macho, jock Rambo-types all over the country. And instead he gave that up, and then gave the ultimate sacrifice for his country. While one may well disagree with the policies of our government, TIllman simply was a soldier who did what was ordered of him.

As for the word "hero," we hear it constantly in sports. For once, the term may be applied correctly to an athlete. And, for the record, I am quite sure that if Tillman were here to day, he would reject the label. My impression is that he just wanted to do his part. We need soldiers to protect us in a world where fanatics are willing to fly planes into buildings. And soldiering is a nasty, difficult, incredibly dangerous job. Tillman volunteered for it, despite his success in the NFL. From my perspective, that's heroic.

Daseal - Tillman was killed in Afghanistan (who was harboring al-qaeda and would be still if we hadn't gone in there). He was in Iraq for a while, but was ambushed in and subsequently killed in Afghanistan. If you think that going into Afghanistan was not justified, then you obviously don't know the facts.

Way to use one stereotype to condemn another:
"Or is it going back to after 9/11 when the rednecks beat up anyone who looked as if they were from the middle east."

"The Cardinals said they will retire Tillman's No. 40 and name the plaza surrounding the new stadium under construction in suburban Glendale the "Pat Tillman Freedom Plaza." "

The Cardinals just earned a little respect, in my book.

I am more concerned at this guys obsession with Rambo. Was he unable to deal with the subject matter and thus scarred by it psychologically? Has he got an inferiority complex due to being a 98lb weakling? It's a strange kind of rant, very immature, he's got some deep seated problems that will require the help of a therapist.

I still would like to beat the snot out of him though. Not because he looks a certain way, but because he's obnoxious.

Daseal -

I agree and disagree with you. As to the kid having a right to say what he wants about Tillman. Yup. He does. I don't have to respect it, but he can say it. From what I read of the article, I happen to agree with the president of the college who described the article as "intellectually immature".

As to heroism, you make the mistake of tying heroism to a heroic death. While it is likely true that Tillman died just as many other soldiers have died in the line of duty, it is not the actual events of his death that make him heroic. Rather, it is the choices he made in life and which eventually resulted in his death that made him heroic.

Everyone, whether they do so knowingly or with some alterior motives, who joins the armed forces has made, on some level, certain choices and sacrifices and, accordingly, is in the same way "heroic" as Tillman was. In an extreme way, however, Tillman reflected the choices and sacrifices faced by all who don the uniform of our military and place their lives in our service.

Unlike the vast majority of those who have died, Tilman bypassed a life of ease and false hero-worship given to entertainers. Tillman sacrificed the luxuries given to such individuals and chose to place his life at the disposal of his country in hopes that, by doing so, he would better serve his fellow countrymen/women. By making this choice, Tillman exhibited a selflessness which, if practiced by all of us, would make our country and this world a better place. Further, the he choice made, though easy for Tillman, is incomprehensible to many of us. Can you honestly say you would sacrifice the 3.6 million and fame commensurate with being professional football player in order to serve your country in a life threatening job for low pay and relative anonymity (even if you believed the cause just)? While I would like to honestly answer "Yes". I am not sure I can.

The fact that Tillman could and did answer "yes" to this question and then followed his answer through to it its deadly end is what makes him heroic and his death tragic.
He is a hero because his choices and sacrifices set an ideal which all of us can and should strive to emulate even if we cannot hope to duplicate it.

You're both totally correct. It was Afghanistan, I forgot. Yes, they do have many ties to 9/11. So him being there is justified. Chances are if we weren't in Iraq he would be somewhere different though, but that's too much guessing.
"Or is it going back to after 9/11 when the rednecks beat up anyone who looked as if they were from the middle east."
Cpayne - This is very true. I didn't say every redneck, but I heard of multiple instances of even children being afraid to go to school because their family is as ignorant as they come. Suddenly because a few fanatics do something that most Muslims think is absolutly abominable all Muslims are demonfied. That's like saying all American's are fanatic Christians like we have running the White House. It simply isn't true. There were quite a few examples of people from the middle east being both physically and psycologically worn down after 9/11. I must say I'm a bit sad that you seem to support this.

When the word is used in Sports, they normally say "sports hero" which is different from a real hero. Don't get me wrong, I think the Tillman had a noble cause, but I can also see the other side of the fence.

I retract my statement about not being there. That pertains to Iraq, not Afghanistan.

[QUOTE=Daseal]It would take my about 4 pages worth of essay to explain my stance on the above. It's not lack of love for my country, or the men and women in the service (which I have quite a few family and friends in) but the war is unnecessary. Pat Tillman should have never been killed, because he should have never been there.[/QUOTE]

obviously Tillman felt he should be there or else he wouldn't have volunteered to go serve his country. this isn't like vietnam where people, mostly kids, were drafted and didn't have a choice. anyone joining the military thinking they'll always be safe obviously don't understand what the job is about.
I do understand the need to have opposing view points expressed, but not to the point where someone is demeaning the choice's a person makes with their life. there was no need to be this direspectful of someone who thought he was doing the right thing to protect the freedoms of people like this putz of a "journalist."

[QUOTE=Daseal]I don't agree with him, but he's entitled to his opinion just like you are. Is Pat Tillman a hero? Maybe. What horribly heroic action did he take? Did he lay down his life for 20 of his other men? No. He joined the Rangers and had an unfortunate accident happen to him, I think it's a little overzealous to call him a hero. I feel heroes are people that really totally change the face of something. Pat Tillman didn't do that. He's a man who was famous, that just happened to die in combat. He's no more of a hero than anyone else who has died in Iraq. This whole "defending our Freedom" thing kind of makes me sick. He's not defending my freedom in Iraq. My freedom was never jeopardized by Saddam.

It would take my about 4 pages worth of essay to explain my stance on the above. It's not lack of love for my country, or the men and women in the service (which I have quite a few family and friends in) but the war is unnecessary. Pat Tillman should have never been killed, because he should have never been there.

The term "hero" get's tossed around like a rag-doll in times of war. Everyone suddenly becomes a hero. The armed forces do their jobs, and they do them well. However, I don't get entitled as a hero if there's an unfortunate accident and I die. I'm an idiot who got stuck in an industrial machine. I think a hero is the man who sacrifices himself for the rest of the platoon. A hero is someone who saves the lives of his fellow soldiers.

Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm just saying that Pat Tillman get's too much press and our society likes the word hero. Hero's are rare. Pat Tillman did a noble thing in turning down the money and fighting, although the kid has a valid point that it could be seen as stupid. There's a very thin line between brave and stupid.

In closing. Let the kid say how he feels. Or is it going back to after 9/11 when the rednecks beat up anyone who looked as if they were from the middle east. Or people beating other people up for not standing up during "America the beautiful" (which holds no disrespect.) It's simply form of opinion, and Pat Tillman knew what chances he was taking heading into battle. He's no less a hero than the 10 who died via carbomb today.

Here's a novel idea. Let's get the fuck out of there and we won't have any more "heroes." That's fine by me. I'd rather be heroless and still have families with loved ones intact.[/QUOTE]

Daseal, you really have to stay off politic's until you you learn to think properly, your industrial machine anology is ridiculous, you equate what tillman did to essentially falling off a ladder, you might wan't to think about putting it in these term's, if someone get's killed because he was stuck in an industrial machine as you put it, for no reason other than his own stupidity than no he's not really a hero, although the only reason he might have been in that position is because he had to put his life at risk to care for his family, or as well he could have been killed in a machine saving the life of another co-worker and doing so gave his own life, your a FOOL if you think for 1 second Iraq or Afganastan have nothing to do with our freedom, of saftey! Tell me Daseal would you be in favor of bombing afganastan if we uncovered the plot to take down the WTC before it happened? and wiping out bin laden and his ilk before they struck? I doubt it! yet they were no more a threat to us than Iraq was, unless you wan't to count the first time he bombed the WTC, or when he bombed the USS cole, then a man comes along and throw's away everything to fight for his country, and to put his life on the line to see that american's don't die like they did in the WTC again, and you say the word hero is used losely and he doesn't deserve hero status? I really don't know where your head is at, GREATER LOVE HAS NO MAN THAT HE GIVE UP HIS LIFE FOR HIS FRIEND'S!

AMERICA! LOVE IT, OR GET OUT!!!!!!!!!!!

I have no problem with free speech because thats what this country is all about and we fight for that. The one thing I totally can not accept is when your start to cross a very thin line. This kid definetly crossed the line. There is a certain way to criticize and there is a stupid way. By calling someone an idiot because they went to protect your freedom is the stupid way.

[QUOTE=Daseal]I don't agree with him, but he's entitled to his opinion just like you are. Is Pat Tillman a hero? Maybe. What horribly heroic action did he take? Did he lay down his life for 20 of his other men?[/QUOTE]He may not have saved 20 other men, but the fact that he was there and he was in the position to save 20 men while you and I are home sitting on our asses makes him a hero.

And yes, this college punk has the right to print whatever he likes... but he must live with the consequences. I can promise you someone will find him and kick the crap out of him, repeatedly. Whether it's physically, or in a job interview... whatever. People don't forget that kinda stuff.

Ok, heres my take....

I agree that maybe Tillman got too much press and was treated differnetly than the other soilders, and on SOME level, I dissagree with it. Not to Tillmans exposure, but the lack of exposure others who die for the country do not get.

To not call this guy a hero, is absolultey ludacris. Not to call anyone over there right now a hero, is absolutley ludacris. I dont really give a crap if a soilder goes over there and dosent fight a single fight , and anothe rgoes and gets in 100 battles. They are both equal heros in my book. The fact of the matter is, they are willing to go over there and put their asses on the line every single day for our country, somthing I'm not willing to do unless I'm forced into it. So for people to do this voluntaraly and be called " Rambo " and " Idiots " really, really pisses me off.

Now, this little SOB might not realize, but people like Tillman are the only reason that he gets to publish his stupid article. They are the people who fight for these rights. That article is nothing more than that, stupid. I dont know what Pat Tillman, or any other soilder did to this kid, but its down right sick that someone could say that stuff.

"He was acting out his macho, patriotic crap and I guess someone with a bigger gun did him in."

I honestly have nothing to say after reading this quote. I really dont.

Dawalrus, err, daseal --
"I must say I'm a bit sad that you seem to support this."

Where did I 'seem to support this'?
I was attacking your argument with your own inconsistencies.
I never condoned the instances of violence taken against Muslim-Americans in the days following 911.

[QUOTE=offiss]your a FOOL if you think for 1 second Iraq or Afganastan have nothing to do with our freedom, of saftey! Tell me Daseal would you be in favor of bombing afganastan if we uncovered the plot to take down the WTC before it happened? and wiping out bin laden and his ilk before they struck? I doubt it! yet they were no more a threat to us than Iraq was, unless you wan't to count the first time he bombed the WTC[/QUOTE]

Exactly.

[quote]Daseal, you really have to stay off politic's until you you learn to think properly, your industrial machine anology is ridiculous, you equate what tillman did to essentially falling off a ladder, you might wan't to think about putting it in these term's, if someone get's killed because he was stuck in an industrial machine as you put it, for no reason other than his own stupidity than no he's not really a hero, although the only reason he might have been in that position is because he had to put his life at risk to care for his family, or as well he could have been killed in a machine saving the life of another co-worker and doing so gave his own life, your a FOOL if you think for 1 second Iraq or Afganastan have nothing to do with our freedom, of saftey! Tell me Daseal would you be in favor of bombing afganastan if we uncovered the plot to take down the WTC before it happened? and wiping out bin laden and his ilk before they struck? I doubt it! yet they were no more a threat to us than Iraq was, unless you wan't to count the first time he bombed the WTC, or when he bombed the USS cole, then a man comes along and throw's away everything to fight for his country, and to put his life on the line to see that american's don't die like they did in the WTC again, and you say the word hero is used losely and he doesn't deserve hero status? I really don't know where your head is at, GREATER LOVE HAS NO MAN THAT HE GIVE UP HIS LIFE FOR HIS FRIEND'S!

AMERICA! LOVE IT, OR GET OUT!!!!!!!!!!!
[/quote]
American, Love it or get out? This statement is the most flawed you overly patriotic people like to overuse. Part of my civil rights include being able to criticize anything I like and have no sort of backlash from it. America right now is one of the most hated countries in the world. You think this is without merit? We're taking over the roll of the world police, and we have no place to force democracy where the people don't want it. It's not our place.

Now, if we love our civil rights so much. How come we go into Iraq and shut down newspapers because they don't make the US out to be some lovely country working for the good of the Iraqi people. I've said in other threads I've talked to multiple marines that think this war is absolutely useless. They have mentioned that Iraq is a lot like the US, not like the media likes to portray it. I haven't seen it for myself, but I know at least 3 people that have spent time over there, and their stories all seem to agree.

I'm in favor of bombing when we have evidence. I'm sorry, but killing a bunch of children on a hunch isn't exactly my idea of a good move. There are other ways to diffuse these terrorist situations. We could start respecting the rest of the world. There's a reason the other major nations in the UN didn't support us. It's because we don't even have a leg to stand on.

You're right. The machine analogy isn't the best. People know that there is a chance that they will be called into duty. However, he was doing his JOB which we can all agree on. From what I know of the Iraqi war (the only first hand accounts I have, I'm assuming Afghanistan is somewhat similar) they sit around and play cards a lot, and don't see a whole lot of action. If the Rangers are involved, it's probably a known hot bed. So he knew what he was getting into. Before you rock me for "not being patriotic" I tell you right now my family comes from a long line of Military people. One grandfather in the Korean War was found with 30 dead Koreans around him in order to save his commander. Another Grandfather heavily decorated for his bombing in WW2, silver star, etc. However, I'm not trying to play favorites through associaition. I am very against this war, and most wars. Unless I am in imminent danger, there's no need. I believe the monroe doctrine was absolutely the best policy the US ever adopted.

We're a strong and powerful nation, in military terms, perhaps the best. We need to sell our military off and help people in other aspects. Not to mention it's costing 40 billion a month along with hundreds of troops. If you see that as worth it, maybe you should look at your politics, buddy.

If someone wanted to do something similar to the WTC, it wouldn't be that hard. As shown people can slip things by Airport security (ie that 18 year old who while demonstrating the problems in the airlines security is now getting sued.) Isn't great. Not to mention another WTC type attack would deystroy our economy. I believe it was the Wall Street Journal that had an article which said if we had another Airplane related terrorist strike 4 major airlines would go out of business within a week. The terrorists know this. They are very smart, not just cave dwelling idiots as commonly thought.

Answer me this. Why was the first thing Bush did was fly Bin laden's family out of the country after 9/11. The Bin laden's know the BUshs. Hell, Bush Sr. used to fund little Usama. But that doesn't matter. "You can be a terrorist, as long as it's for the US then it's OK" -Dead Prez

We used to hire this guy to do awful acts against Russia. But that's ok, right?

Come on, as a country our political vision is skewed and we need to learn how to mind our own business. Pat Tillman, I feel bad for the family, but he isn't any more of a hero than Joe Schmoe who died.

"overly patriotic"

You're criticizing us for being overly patriotic, when if we would call you not patriotic enough, you'd be jumping up and down crying foul.

Like I said in a private email a couple of weeks ago, daseal, if you want to argue in a non-aggressive manner - in which no personal insults are exchanged - I'll be happy to oblige. If you actually listen to my ideas and FACTS then you may see our situation in a whole new light.

I know the first thing you're going to say is that I don't listen to your ideas. In fact I do; they're just laden with too many fallacies and/or inconsistencies to take to heart.

There are never any personal insults hurled. Unless you mean at Bush, which they do in fact matter. Character of a President matters. I listen to your ideas, I don't agree with them, and if you provide me with hard facts, not things that are debatable, then I will.

I would be happy for you to bring the fallacies and inconsistancies to my attention when we're mid debate then. I wouldn't jump down your throat calling foul. Fact of the matter is I'm not patriotic. I think that being overly patriotic causes the downfall of every great nation, which is so true.

PS - Could a mod please more this to the Parking lot? This isn't really football news. At least not anymore.

"Pat Tillman, I feel bad for the family, but he isn't any more of a hero than Joe Schmoe who died."

You have to give the man credit for turning down $3.5million so he could go and try and stop the people who are trying to kill YOU. As for being more of a hero than the other Joe Schmoe casualties, I think they're all on the same level. What was originally being discussed here is the college student who was belittling Tillman's courage and bravery, not Tillman's worth as a hero.

[QUOTE=Daseal]I think that being overly patriotic causes the downfall of every great nation, which is so true.[/QUOTE]

Ha, 'so true' & 'i think' used in the same sentence about the same thing.

The slide towards liberalism is what causes the downfall of every great nation, unfortunately we are headed in that direction.

Daseal:

We have fanatic Christians running the White House?

I hope they aren't overly patriotic as well!

:rolleyes:

You do realize that you used the same word to describe both those who bombed the WTC and those who are running our country, don't you?

Yes, you do get to criticize anything you like. No, you don't get to do so free of backlash. There are consequences for every position you take, and part of those consequences include granting others the same right to criticize you.

Your "killing a bunch of children on a hunch" does no favors to your credibility as a political commentator. That sort of rhetoric is more likely to evoke images of you foaming at the mouth. Sorry, but it is just difficult to take such gross misrepresentations seriously. I think someone else had it right that you might want to lay off of the political discussions until you've developed the capacity to talk coherently about the issues.

Of course, that's just my opinion. I now await whatever backlash is consequent to it.

--Phin

As an Englishman, may I attempt to put some perspective into this?

I have family in America, NY in fact, so please understand me when I say this: 9/11 showed what a true hero is. Someone who attempts to safeguard others without concern for their own well being. I saw the documentary showing firemen going into the WTC before it collapsed. That is heroic.

What Tillman did was noble and worthy of respect, in signing up and wlaking away from the NFL. It showed a man willing to stand up for his principles. But in and of itself that act was not heroic. Had it not been for current political motivations, he may not even have been there. Joining up wsa not heroic, but it was noble. Again, I have respect for the man.

Was his death heroic? From its description, no it wasn't. He died in a firefight. He wasn't the only one. He wasn't saving anyone, at least not directly. He wasn't protecting anyone outside his squad (protecting his squad is his job, not in itself a heroic act).

So was he a hero? Well therein lies the rub. His acts individually were not heroic. Together, I'd still refer to them as noble, and certainly brave. But he was no more a hero than any other soldier that died in warfare. Maybe you think every soldier is a hero? I don't deny your right to think that. However, I think in this case, because of his NFL background, he got more publicity than 99% of the other casualties of Iraq and Afghanistan. The press made him a hero, not his actions. If he had never been a football player, we wouldn't have heard of him, let alone be having this "discussion".

I have respect for every soldier in every army, as they (for the most part) volunteer to put their lives at risk for their country. It doesn't make them heroes, and IMHO Pat Tillman isn't one either, just a very brave man. No more or less brave than any other soldier, policemen or fireman.

The original article I disagree with in principal, though not without thought for the misguided intent behind it. Even if he is wrong (and he is) he had the guts to write what he thought - published and was damned. As C said, the guy belittled the mans bravery and that was wrong, not his right to say it.

Final thought - If we make everyone a hero, then we may lose sight of the true heroes.

Oh and Dasel is right - move this thread out of here!

[QUOTE=Daseal]American, Love it or get out? This statement is the most flawed you overly patriotic people like to overuse. Part of my civil rights include being able to criticize anything I like and have no sort of backlash from it. America right now is one of the most hated countries in the world. You think this is without merit? We're taking over the roll of the world police, and we have no place to force democracy where the people don't want it. It's not our place.

Now, if we love our civil rights so much. How come we go into Iraq and shut down newspapers because they don't make the US out to be some lovely country working for the good of the Iraqi people. I've said in other threads I've talked to multiple marines that think this war is absolutely useless. They have mentioned that Iraq is a lot like the US, not like the media likes to portray it. I haven't seen it for myself, but I know at least 3 people that have spent time over there, and their stories all seem to agree.

I'm in favor of bombing when we have evidence. I'm sorry, but killing a bunch of children on a hunch isn't exactly my idea of a good move. There are other ways to diffuse these terrorist situations. We could start respecting the rest of the world. There's a reason the other major nations in the UN didn't support us. It's because we don't even have a leg to stand on.

You're right. The machine analogy isn't the best. People know that there is a chance that they will be called into duty. However, he was doing his JOB which we can all agree on. From what I know of the Iraqi war (the only first hand accounts I have, I'm assuming Afghanistan is somewhat similar) they sit around and play cards a lot, and don't see a whole lot of action. If the Rangers are involved, it's probably a known hot bed. So he knew what he was getting into. Before you rock me for "not being patriotic" I tell you right now my family comes from a long line of Military people. One grandfather in the Korean War was found with 30 dead Koreans around him in order to save his commander. Another Grandfather heavily decorated for his bombing in WW2, silver star, etc. However, I'm not trying to play favorites through associaition. I am very against this war, and most wars. Unless I am in imminent danger, there's no need. I believe the monroe doctrine was absolutely the best policy the US ever adopted.

We're a strong and powerful nation, in military terms, perhaps the best. We need to sell our military off and help people in other aspects. Not to mention it's costing 40 billion a month along with hundreds of troops. If you see that as worth it, maybe you should look at your politics, buddy.

If someone wanted to do something similar to the WTC, it wouldn't be that hard. As shown people can slip things by Airport security (ie that 18 year old who while demonstrating the problems in the airlines security is now getting sued.) Isn't great. Not to mention another WTC type attack would deystroy our economy. I believe it was the Wall Street Journal that had an article which said if we had another Airplane related terrorist strike 4 major airlines would go out of business within a week. The terrorists know this. They are very smart, not just cave dwelling idiots as commonly thought.

Answer me this. Why was the first thing Bush did was fly Bin laden's family out of the country after 9/11. The Bin laden's know the BUshs. Hell, Bush Sr. used to fund little Usama. But that doesn't matter. "You can be a terrorist, as long as it's for the US then it's OK" -Dead Prez

We used to hire this guy to do awful acts against Russia. But that's ok, right?

Come on, as a country our political vision is skewed and we need to learn how to mind our own business. Pat Tillman, I feel bad for the family, but he isn't any more of a hero than Joe Schmoe who died.[/QUOTE]

it's only skewed by liberal thinking that want's to excuse the good we do for the world and the lives we sacrifice so that million's of other's may live a free life, and have an opportunity of religous freedom, not to come under the hand of a dictator, who executes anyone who has anything to say other than the party line, It's to bad you can't see that we are the police of the world, being an american doesn't just mean taking care of american's, it mean's looking out in the world and doing our best to see that other's may some day have the same opportunities as we. Are we perfect? no. but we have a history of trying to do the right thing, and trying to correct the thing's we do wrong, and using the god givin abundance we have in this country for the good of all man kind, maybe you believe men like sadam, and bin laden, as well as castro, and on and on are fine, and all is well with men like this, and nothing should ever be done no matter how many attrocities they committ, and how many they will committ if left alone, so long as it's not an american that is slaughtered you are fine with that, a guy like you will never understand the mind set of people like this until they manage to set off some kind of nucleur device in 1 of our major cities, then all we will here out of someone like you, is why didn't the bush administration do something, and they had to know about this plot, when not only does the current administration have to deal with people who if they had thier wish would destroy us in a heartbeat, but they have to first fight people like yourself trying to protect these mad men. As for the UN it wouldn't exist if it wasen't for all the money we pump into it trying to keep some kind of communication open for world peace, and I am sorry they didn't approve our war against afgan. after they took down the WTC, and I was so heartbroken about all those innocent people jumping around in the street's applauding bin laden, who may have been caught in the line of fire, but I ask you who is worse the US for doing everything we can to avoid civilian casualties, [including jepordizing the lives of our own soldier's] to secure peace, not just for us but for the world as well, or these coward's who are such humanitierin's that they use woman and children as shield's to hide behind and act like warrior's? YEA, THERE JUST LIKE AMERICAN'S!

Are you aware that bin laden's own family excommunicated him from saudi arabia a year's ago? Why? because his own family knew he was a nut job, how do you think he wound up in afgan. to begin with?

Very eloquent, JoeRedskin, I fully agree.

I wonder if the newspaper in which the article was printed was a school sanctioned one. The school that I attend ([url]http://cs.gmu.edu[/url]) has one sanctioned newspaper and another rogue paper, so aptly named "Expulsion", which expresses the radical ultra-liberal viewpoint. The Expulsion prints garbage like this all the time, but nobody really cares because they know the kind of crap it puts out all the time.

Ok, let me state something first and foremost that people seem to be missing. I support our soldiers fully, however I don't think they should be put into the face of danger unless necessary. Which I don't feel dictators like Saddam, who I feel, don't pose an imminent threat. I am much more fearful of Kim Jong Il than I was of Saddam. Kim Jong Il we KNOW has a stockpile of nuclear weapons, hates the United States, but yet we don't touch him (oddly enough, Kim Jong Il has the largest Pornography collection of any single person, most are American films). I also said I don't agree with the reasoning behind the guy who wrote the articles basis. I think he's way off with the Rambo analogies, etc.

I just don't see Pat Tillman as a "hero." He was doing his job. He did a fine job, but we have to try to get over his fascination of him as a hero. He's a great roll model, and he's definitly someone that we can look up to. He followed his instinct and did what he thought was right, and I salute him for that.

Offiss, you're completely correct. Our country has an abundance. Now, just think what we could do if we spent that 40 mil a month on food, medicine, and water instead of bombs. I'm all for defending our freedom, but we're not doing that in Iraq. Afghanistan is a totally different scenario, and we should be patroling just because of all the evidence alone we could gather. Offiss, I think it's pretty obvious that the Iraqi people aren't overly thrilled about our forced democracy. Most of them are following one of a certain sect of priests. Why won't the US let the Iraqi people have the type of government they like. I liked the analogy Jon Stewart from the Daily Show used. He said (I'm paraphrasing, can't remember the exact quote) "The way we're trying to give Iraqi's freedom is similar to if after the revolution the French hung around, wrote our constitution for us, made us follow it, then left. We wouldn't have near the amount of nationalism that we do now." This makes a lot of sense to me. I mean, the "governing council" we've put in around Iraq are people that were Iraqi exiles in Brittain. The Iraqi's don't even feel of those people as their countrymen. They're American puppets. Also, I did refer to the fanatics in both Al-Quada and the White house together. I said they are both fanatics, although in different ways. The Koran says: "Has thou seen one who relies in religion that is one who is rough truly often." Considering instead of asking his father, a real war veteran, Bush prays. That's like getting in a car, hitting the accelerator, and praying it gets to your destination, it requires guidance, and no matter how much praying you do it is destined to fail without your willpower.

As a country we've been fucking the Muslim countries for a long time. Maybe we should help them instead of constantly hurt them and we wouldn't have problems.

Either way. This is no longer the Pat Tillman discussion. So once it is moved to the parking lot, I will respond again. Until then I'm not saying anything else (which who knows, Mods might never move it now.) For those of you saying I'm not fit to discuss politics, I'm tossing out facts about Bin Laden's family, our previous involvement with him, and other such things that you won't touch, but say I don't have a leg to stand on. You're entitled to your opinion, but counter those facts, please.

My opinions offer differ from other people, but I also try to see things from multiple angles. Let's get back to Redskins chat in this forum.

Thread officially moved away from football. Feel free to continue.

Appreciate it, Brud.

I think Pat Tillman is a hero more for the way he lived his life than the manner in which he was killed. The bottom line is that he walked away from millions of dollars so that he could do what he really felt called to do. I think we'd all like to think that we're capable of such a thing, but frankly I think 99% of people would take the money. Pat Tillman didn't seem to want the money or fame ... he wanted to be a regular guy, and he was, just like so many others who've been killed in combat.

I hate the war in Iraq for reasons I've stated elsewhere but I have nothing but respect for our soldiers and for people who've made the ultimate sacrifice like Pat Tillman. My anger is reserved for those who put them in harm's way for reasons that I despise. The kid who wrote that article must have some serious issues ... let's not kick his ass though lest we reinforce whatever prejudice he already holds. He has a right to express his opinion, no matter how stupid and pointless it may seem to us.

[QUOTE=cpayne5]Daseal -
Way to use one stereotype to condemn another:
"Or is it going back to after 9/11 when the rednecks beat up anyone who looked as if they were from the middle east."[/QUOTE]
No Kidding!!

How is that a stereotype? I didn't say all rednecks, I referred to the people who blindly aggressed other human beings as rednecks.