Re: Redskins Sign Grossman
 

[quote=sandtrapjack;675553]Wow, tall request but here goes. These are first round QB's:

David Klingler
Tommy Maddox
Rick Mirer
Heath Shuler (Sorry to toss that one at you)
Jim Druckenmiller
Ryan Leaf
Tim Couch
Akili Smith
Cade McNown[/quote]

Good Post. QB's are held to a higher standard PERIOD. They are supposed to add at least 4 wins on their own IMO.

I'm not a fan of Rex but based on the fact he know's the system it's a good pick up.

Re: Redskins Sign Grossman
 

[quote=Audi;675635]But why would you want to follow the exception rather than the rule?

That's like saying you rather not wear your seat belt because a few guys survived car crashes because they chose not to wear their seat belt.

If you look at not only last season, but the last ten seasons, [B]it becomes obvious what the formula is for success.[/B][/quote]

Picking up Tom Brady in the 6th round?

I don't think the Jets are an exception to the rule. I mean the Vikes were successful partly because their offensive line kept Brett Favre upright. The Dolphins offensive line has been one of the reasons their teams has done well despite having Pennington or Hennig. Baltimore has a great offensive line and have been successful because of it.

Granted not all of these teams drafted first round lineman..well actually they did, but they put a lot of effort into building their lines. Right now we have no line, and it'd be foolish to spend a high round pick that is either going to sit in the bench or would be thrown to the fire behind a suspect line.

Re: Redskins Sign Grossman
 

[quote=Longtimefan;675643]The last real celebrated success this team has known was mainly due to the play of the offensive line. "The Hogs" you remember them. Some have gone as far as to say the entire group should be inducted into the HOF. I will never underestimate the importance of a great O-line, and how much it means to the success of a football team. That's why I will continue to sugest that Chris Samuels replacement be drafted because it's not likely we'll find him under any other circumstance.

Now I'll agree we don't neccessarily NEED to use the #4 pick for it to be mission accomplished, but it's a position that definitely has to be addressed, and I'm sure you would agree.[/quote]

I agree that the replacement needs to be found.. and agree that it doesn't have to be the #4, so I definitely agree.

If it is the number 4, awesome, if it's the 2nd round, awesome. If it's next year for a stud and we have someone who completes the spot this year, awesome. We can only wait so long and it's gotta be soon; this year or next.

Re: Redskins Sign Grossman
 

He becomes the veteran QB and likely the Redskins will deal Campbell during the draft after they take a rookie QB early. I would like to see us ship Campbell, McIntosh, Davis, #1 (4th. overall), and 2011 2nd. round pick to the Rams for their #1 (1st. overall) and select Bradford.

Re: Redskins Sign Grossman
 

[quote=SkinsfanNTX;675649]He becomes the veteran QB and likely the Redskins will deal Campbell during the draft after they take a rookie QB early. [B] I would like to see us ship Campbell, McIntosh, Davis, #1 (4th. overall), and 2011 2nd. round pick to the Rams for their #1 (1st. overall) and select Bradford.[/B][/quote]

Easy there Vinny. :doh:

Re: Redskins Sign Grossman
 

[quote=SkinsfanNTX;675649]He becomes the veteran QB and likely the Redskins will deal Campbell during the draft after they take a rookie QB early. I would like to see us ship [B]Campbell, McIntosh, Davis, #1 (4th. overall), and 2011 2nd. round pick to the Rams for their #1 (1st. overall)[/B] and select Bradford.[/quote]
you need to be committed

Re: Redskins Sign Grossman
 

[quote=Longtimefan;675643][B]The last real celebrated success this team has known was mainly due to the play of the offensive line. "The Hogs" you remember them.[/B] Some have gone as far as to say the entire group should be inducted into the HOF. I will never underestimate the importance of a great O-line, and how much it means to the success of a football team. That's why I will continue to sugest that Chris Samuels replacement be drafted because it's not likely we'll find him under any other circumstance.

Now I'll agree we don't neccessarily NEED to use the #4 pick for it to be mission accomplished, but it's a position that definitely has to be addressed, and I'm sure you would agree.[/quote]


I'd say we probably have quite a few fans on here that weren't around for those days. OL needs to be addressed we only have 5 picks not including ?????? trades we need to pick wisely.

Re: Redskins Sign Grossman
 

[quote=Audi;675608]Summary:
Matt Leinart was not ranked in the Top 4 and thus was not taken in the Top 4. The Jets took Ferguson because Ferguson was rated higher than Leinart, not due to some philosophy that they believed an equally rated OT was more valuable than an equally rated QB.

That is why my example of David Carr vs Mike Williams applies, while your example of Ferguson vs Leinart does not.[/quote]

Now your making some sense with the first sentence.


Your premises about "surprise" and GM omniscience is still a load of bull and you have not produced real evidence of a fatal flaw in Leinart. Continue worshipping you god, Polian.

Re: Redskins Sign Grossman
 

[quote=SkinsfanNTX;675649]He becomes the veteran QB and likely the Redskins will deal Campbell during the draft after they take a rookie QB early. I would like to see us ship Campbell, McIntosh, Davis, #1 (4th. overall), and 2011 2nd. round pick to the Rams for their #1 (1st. overall) and select Bradford.[/quote]

Damn, throw in CP and LJ while you're at it!

Re: Redskins Sign Grossman
 

[quote=Ruhskins;675646]Picking up Tom Brady in the 6th round?

I don't think the Jets are an exception to the rule. I mean the Vikes were successful partly because their offensive line kept Brett Favre upright. The Dolphins offensive line has been one of the reasons their teams has done well despite having Pennington or Hennig. Baltimore has a great offensive line and have been successful because of it.

Granted not all of these teams drafted first round lineman..well actually they did, but they put a lot of effort into building their lines. Right now we have no line, and it'd be foolish to spend a high round pick that is either going to sit in the bench or would be thrown to the fire behind a suspect line.[/quote]

So why weren't the Vikings successful before Brett Favre? Why weren't the Jets successful WITH Brett Favre? The Dolphins went 7-9 last year, and the Ravens went 9-7.

The rule is you need good QB play or it doesn't matter how good of an offensive line is. That's why the Jets are an exception, similar to the 2000 Ravens who also saw fit to dump Trent Dilfer immediately after.

Re: Redskins Sign Grossman
 

[quote=NYCskinfan82;675655]I'd say we probably have quite a few fans on here that weren't around for those days. OL needs to be addressed we only have 5 picks not including ?????? trades we need to pick wisely.[/quote]

I know a lot of people my age that couldn't tell you anything about those times

I was young but I remember it well

then again 20 years ago was a different game, we had great chemistry on the line though, something that probably will NEVER fall out of fashion

Re: Redskins Sign Grossman
 

[quote=Longtimefan;675643]The last real celebrated success this team has known was mainly due to the play of the offensive line. "The Hogs" you remember them. Some have gone as far as to say the entire group should be inducted into the HOF. I will never underestimate the importance of a great O-line, and how much it means to the success of a football team. That's why I will continue to sugest that Chris Samuels replacement be drafted because it's not likely we'll find him under any other circumstance.

Now I'll agree we don't neccessarily NEED to use the #4 pick for it to be mission accomplished, but it's a position that definitely has to be addressed, and I'm sure you would agree.[/quote]

Sure, but "The Hogs" weren't built on first round picks

Russ Grimm (3rd round)
Mark May (1st round)
George Starke (11th round)
Jeff Bostic (undrafted)
Joe Jacoby (undrafted)
Jim Lachey (1st round-Chargers; joined Redskins in 5th season)
Raleigh McKenzie (11th round)
R.C. Thielemann (2nd round-Falcons; joined Redskins in 8th season)
Mark Schlereth (10th round)
Ed Simmons (6th round)

Re: Redskins Sign Grossman
 

[quote=SirClintonPortis;675658]Now your making some sense with the first sentence.

Your premises about "surprise" and GM omniscience is still a load of bull and you have not produced real evidence of a fatal flaw in Leinart. Continue worshipping you god, Polian.[/quote]

So what you're trying to say is that Matt Leinart should have gone higher and should be ranked as Ferguson's equal in terms of value.

Re: Redskins Sign Grossman
 

[quote=Audi;675627]The Vikings took Tarvaris Jackson in the 2nd round. The Jets took Kellen Clemens in the 2nd round.

Neither have amounted to much despite the offensive lines put in front of them.[/quote]

And Drew Brees was also a second rounder. Draft position does not tell the individual player's skill abilities, it just represents how people viewed their likeliness to fail. Good 2nd round QBs probably come around the QB draft class is deep.

Re: Redskins Sign Grossman
 

[quote=SmootSmack;675663]Sure, but "The Hogs" weren't built on first round picks

Russ Grimm (3rd round)
[B]Mark May (1st round)[/B]
George Starke (11th round)
Jeff Bostic (undrafted)
Joe Jacoby (undrafted)
[B]Jim Lachey (1st round-Chargers; joined Redskins in 5th season)[/B]
Raleigh McKenzie (11th round)
R.C. Thielemann (2nd round-Falcons; joined Redskins in 8th season)
Mark Schlereth (10th round)
Ed Simmons (6th round)[/quote]

No first rounders? LOL.

I'd be ok with drafting Bradford if we could at least have our LT position secure. At this point we haven't, and the idea of drafting Bradford with the line we have right now is scary.

Re: Redskins Sign Grossman
 

[quote=SkinsfanNTX;675649]He becomes the veteran QB and likely the Redskins will deal Campbell during the draft after they take a rookie QB early. I would like to see us ship Campbell, McIntosh, Davis, #1 (4th. overall), and 2011 2nd. round pick to the Rams for their #1 (1st. overall) and select Bradford.[/quote]

Boy!! You really love you some Sam Bradford don't you?

And welcome! to your latest environment.

Re: Redskins Sign Grossman
 

[quote=SirClintonPortis;675666]And Drew Brees was also a second rounder. Draft position does not tell the individual player's skill abilities, it just represents how people viewed their likeliness to fail. Good 2nd round QBs probably come around the QB draft class is deep.[/quote]

Drew Brees was taken #32. Now is he as a second round quarterback the rule or the exception? In the last fifteen years, the only second round quarterbacks to amount to anything close to being a successful starter are Jake Plummer and Drew Brees. And Jake Plummer was a seasoned veteran by the time he started being respectable.

Re: Redskins Sign Grossman
 

[quote=Ruhskins;675671]No first rounders? LOL.

I'd be ok with drafting Bradford if we could at least have our LT position secure. At this point we haven't, and the idea of drafting Bradford with the line we have right now is scary.[/quote]

The entire line wasn't built on first rounders, and Lachey was a 1st rounder that we got in his fifth year in the NFL.

Re: Redskins Sign Grossman
 

[quote=Audi;675676]Drew Brees was taken #32. Now is he as a second round quarterback the rule or the exception? In the last fifteen years, the only second round quarterbacks to amount to anything close to being a successful starter are Jake Plummer and Drew Brees. And Jake Plummer was a seasoned veteran by the time he started being respectable.[/quote]

And the Chargers dumped him and went after a first round QB, and well that worked out fine...but not SB fine. Also a 6th rounder by the name of Tom Brady also has done a few things here and there.

Look we get it, first round QBs typically do a good job, I just don't think one is right for the Redskins right now.

Re: Redskins Sign Grossman
 

[quote=SmootSmack;675679]The entire line wasn't built on first rounders, and Lachey was a 1st rounder that we got in his fifth year in the NFL.[/quote]

I know man, I'm just messing with you.

Re: Redskins Sign Grossman
 

Hello, newbie here, thought I would tip my toe in on this one. Why not Derek Anderson before the Cards got him??? He is younger and has many more tools to work with, wasn't expensive, and could have actually competed with JC, and who knows, Shanny might have made him a pro bowler again. What do you think?

Re: Redskins Sign Grossman
 

[quote=Ruhskins;675681]And the Chargers dumped him and went after a first round QB, and well that worked out fine...but not SB fine. Also a 6th rounder by the name of Tom Brady also has done a few things here and there.

Look we get it, first round QBs typically do a good job, I just don't think one is right for the Redskins right now.[/quote]

And how good was Tom Brady's offensive line? Check out how many times he was sacked in 2001.

Re: Redskins Sign Grossman
 

[quote=Audi;675664]So what you're trying to say is that Matt Leinart should have gone higher and should be ranked as Ferguson's equal in terms of value.[/quote]

Nope, I agree Leinart was rated lower than Ferguson by the Jets, but how much lower is only known to the Jets scouting department. But they still took the LT even though the QB was not that much lower rated, assuming that the team draft grades corresponds to actual draft order.


It's just that you cannot grasp the concept of multiple expected outcomes and thus lack of surprise at any of them and that you cling to a preemptive collective decision-making model when it comes to teams deciding the draft order.

Re: Redskins Sign Grossman
 

[quote=Audi;675686]And how good was Tom Brady's offensive line? [B]Check out how many times he was sacked in 2001.[/B][/quote]

18 times, which was third for fewest sacks allowed. May you meant 2002...oh wait, they were in the top 10 of fewest sacks allowed.

Yes but you're diverting from your fanatical argument about first round QBs. Hell, wasn't Campbell a first round QB and now you're trying to get rid of him for another first round QB?

Again, I get what you are trying to say, I'm just not as fanatical about drafting a LT as you are about drafting a QB. I just think it makes sense given the success of a few teams that have been in similar situation as we have.

Re: Redskins Sign Grossman
 

[quote=Audi;675676]Drew Brees was taken #32. Now is he as a second round quarterback the rule or the exception? In the last fifteen years, the only second round quarterbacks to amount to anything close to being a successful starter are Jake Plummer and Drew Brees. And Jake Plummer was a seasoned veteran by the time he started being respectable.[/quote]

I was hinting at him being the exception. DUHHHHH. Read the whole damn post next time.

Re: Redskins Sign Grossman
 

[quote=luke4twenty;675685]Hello, newbie here, thought I would tip my toe in on this one. Why not Derek Anderson before the Cards got him??? He is younger and has many more tools to work with, wasn't expensive, and could have actually competed with JC, and who knows, Shanny might have made him a pro bowler again. What do you think?[/quote]

guessing it was more of a grossman-shanahan deal

anderson went to pro bowl a few years ago, grossman went to superbowl a few years ago blah blah

welcome to the warpath man

Re: Redskins Sign Grossman
 

[quote=Ruhskins;675691]Yes but you're diverting from your fanatical argument about first round QBs. Hell, wasn't Campbell a first round QB and now you're trying to get rid of him for another first round QB?

Again, I get what you are trying to say, I'm just not as fanatical about drafting a LT as you are about drafting a QB. I just think it makes sense given the success of a few teams that have been in similar situation as we have.[/quote]

Please name the few teams that have been in similar situation that had success by drafting a LT in the first round and a QB in the second round as you suggested.

Re: Redskins Sign Grossman
 

Hiring a QB Mentor/player is not a bad move. Makes sense to only offer a one-year deal. He is familiar with the system and coach ... we could have done much worse things.

Re: Redskins Sign Grossman
 

[quote=SirClintonPortis;675689]Nope, I agree Leinart was rated lower than Ferguson by the Jets, but how much lower is only known to the Jets scouting department. But they still took the LT even though the QB was not that much lower rated, assuming that the team draft grades corresponds to actual draft order.

It's just that you cannot grasp the concept of multiple expected outcomes and thus lack of surprise at any of them and that you cling to a preemptive collective decision-making model when it comes to teams deciding the draft order.[/quote]

If you agree Leinart was rated lower than Ferguson, then the argument is over. They took Ferguson because he was rated higher, not because they decided on a philosophy of LT over QB. Thanks for proving my point.

Re: Redskins Sign Grossman
 

yeah ruhskins, man i get what your saying but after campbell and ramsey, im kinda done picking up the scraps left on the QB table after teams with the high draft picks take the prime cuts of meat.

dont get me wrong, you can find great QBs after the first 10 picks but id rather we take an honest to goodness swing at one of the top qb prospects and not settle for the 3rd or 4th best qb available in the draft.

its just been so long since weve had a true great QB. sitting at no 4 i cant help but be enamored with the idea of taking a chance on a cream of the crop qb for once.

Re: Redskins Sign Grossman
 

[quote=Ruhskins;675671]No first rounders? LOL.

I'd be ok with drafting Bradford if we could at least have our LT position secure. At this point we haven't, and the idea of drafting Bradford with the line we have right now is scary.[/quote]

And we don't even have two 1st rounders on the line we have now. The Hogs weren't all 1st rounders but they were good, that's more than we can say for the bunch we have now.

Re: Redskins Sign Grossman
 

[quote=SirClintonPortis;675693]I was hinting at him being the exception. DUHHHHH. Read the whole damn post next time.[/quote]

It's kind of hard when the rest of your post doesn't make sense in any sort of context.

"And Drew Brees was also a second rounder. Draft position does not tell the individual player's skill abilities, it just represents how people viewed their likeliness to fail. Good 2nd round QBs probably come around the QB draft class is deep. "

Good 2nd round QBs probably come around what? When the QB draft is deep? If the QB draft is deep? Probably? That's the opposite of having an exception.

Re: Redskins Sign Grossman
 

[quote=Longtimefan;675703]And we don't even have two 1st rounders on the line we have now. The Hogs weren't all 1st rounders but they were good, that's more than we can say for the bunch we have now.[/quote]

Well with Levi Jones we technically would. We'd have Jones and Mike Williams

Re: Redskins Sign Grossman
 

[quote=Audi;675695]Please name the few teams that have been in similar situation that had success by drafting a LT in the first round and a QB in the second round as you suggested.[/quote]

I meant teams in similar situations as us in general. Coming from a losing season, having strong defenses, and trying to rebuild. And by similar I mean similar, not the same situation. Well, the Dolphins are just about the same situation as I'm advocating for, drafting a franchise LT, and then taking a 2nd QB (Henne).

Now Baltimore didn't draft a first round tackle until last year, but they build a good line for Flacco's first year (picking up Gaither, and I believe Birk). I don't think their line was as bad as our when they drafted Flacco.

The Jets build a hell of a line before drafting Sanchez. They have two first-rounders they picked up (Mangold, Ferguson) and acquired Faneca in free agency.

Drafting a LT in the first round is not the only way to build a line, but given the fringe talent in FA (unrestricted) it's a good way to start the rebuilding process.

Re: Redskins Sign Grossman
 

This thread is really long.

Why?

We needed a backup QB. We signed a backup that knows the system.

Re: Redskins Sign Grossman
 

I think we should take LT with the first rounder. I am not sold on Clausen or Bradford. Take a guy later on, or develop Colt, or let JC play a year under Shanny. Don't forget, maybe we can trade up and get Locker next year...lol.

Re: Redskins Sign Grossman
 

[quote=wilsowilso;675709]This thread is really long.

[B]Why?[/B]

We needed a backup QB. We signed a backup that knows the system.[/quote]

Because at every opportunity, we need to beat to death the argument of #4 QB vs. #4LT. This is becoming the Campbell supporters vs. the Campbell haters of the offseason.

Re: Redskins Sign Grossman
 

[quote=Audi;675704]It's kind of hard when the rest of your post doesn't make sense in any sort of context.

"And Drew Brees was also a second rounder. Draft position does not tell the individual player's skill abilities, it just represents how people viewed their likeliness to fail. Good 2nd round QBs probably come around the QB draft class is deep. "

Good 2nd round QBs probably come around what? When the QB draft is deep? If the QB draft is deep? Probably? That's the opposite of having an exception.[/quote]
"When" would be the right word. This is what I get for typing too fast. Not every draft is deep in QBs going in the first round.

And second rounders are obviously expected to fail on a more frequent basis than first rounders, although what actually happens depends on the individual players.

Re: Redskins Sign Grossman
 

[quote=celts32;675148]I am going to switch my user to Sexyrexi and try and sell it to Smoot.[/quote]

[B]Wait, I thought SS was SexyRexi![/B]

Or are you and SS the same person? We never see you at the same time!


1. If Gator-Skins like Wuerfel are no good, why are we signing Rex?


2. If Gators are no good, Does that mean Tebow is also no good?

3. Was the failed Gator-Skins experiment simply due to Ole-Ball-Coach's poor coaching?

4. Tebow never played for OBC, did he?

Re: Redskins Sign Grossman
 

[quote=Ruhskins;675706]I meant teams in similar situations as us in general. Coming from a losing season, having strong defenses, and trying to rebuild. And by similar I mean similar, not the same situation. Well, the Dolphins are just about the same situation as I'm advocating for, drafting a franchise LT, and then taking a 2nd QB (Henne).

Now Baltimore didn't draft a first round tackle until last year, but they build a good line for Flacco's first year (picking up Gaither, and I believe Birk). I don't think their line was as bad as our when they drafted Flacco.

The Jets build a hell of a line before drafting Sanchez. They have two first-rounders they picked up (Mangold, Ferguson) and acquired Faneca in free agency.

Drafting a LT in the first round is not the only way to build a line, but given the fringe talent in FA (unrestricted) it's a good way to start the rebuilding process.[/quote]

The Dolphins weren't successful with Henne. The Ravens and Jets have all demonstrated the value of a quarterback with multiple first round quarterbacks and both having participated in trading up for a first round quarterback.