Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Rams)
 

[quote=SC Skins Fan;592765]Boswell did say that, but you are right, it is BS. Your Favre comparison is pretty good. The bottom line is that Mike Sellers is a good blocker but nothing else and Devin Thomas is not an NFL receiver. Thomas should never be on the field when we could instead of Kelly out there. They will continue to do it, because they drafted the guy high and they want to see if he has anything, but I am convinced now that he is a major liability whenever he is on the field. Kelly makes the team better.

We really did not learn much about Campbell this week. He left some plays on the field, he had guys let him down at other times. He looked uncomfortable in the pocket at times, but when he could throw on rhythm he was good. We're still in wait-and-see mode, but right now the offensive coaching is the heart of the issue.[/quote]


Do you think it says anything about JC and the WRs that by his own admission they are still working on the end zone fade? I do.

Dont forget, the fastball was only one of Boswell's points about why the O will struggle to score down close.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Rams)
 

[quote=Mattyk72;592770]I did and I still have the same opinion.

We now have Kelly, Thomas, and Davis, bigger guys that should be quality RZ targets. Get them all in there along with Cooley. I don't buy this crap that we don't have targets.[/quote]

Like JC said to Kelli Johnson, they are still working on fade routes. Obviously JC and the WRs arent ready to run those kind of plays in the RZ.

Like Bos said, these guys are mules not thoroughbreds. There's nothing wrong with mules but you cant expect thoroughbred preformance. That also means there is no need to get upset when they dont play like thoroughbreds. They are what they are.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Rams)
 

[quote=irish;592774]Like JC said to Kelli Johnson, they are still working on fade routes. Obviously JC and the WRs arent ready to run those kind of plays in the RZ.[/quote]

You don't have to run only fades though.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Rams)
 

[quote=Mattyk72;592776]You don't have to run only fades though.[/quote]

True. This is all the same arguments and heartburn we had when the key guys couldnt score for Gibbs. Its becomming obvious its the players not the coaches.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Rams)
 

[quote=irish;592778]True. This is all the same arguments and heartburn we had when the key guys couldnt score for Gibbs. Its becomming obvious its the players not the coaches.[/quote]

We don't know if it's the players when they're not even given the chance.

You really think Zorn is calling a good game inside the RZ?

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Rams)
 

[quote=irish;592755]Its funny you mention the fade. Kelli Johnson asked JC about running the fade during CSN's post game show yesterday and JC's response was "we are working on it". I almost fell out of my chair.[/quote]

Chase and Marko had the fade down perfectly. Obviously the answer is to go back and get Chase :)

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Rams)
 

[quote=Mattyk72;592780]We don't know if it's the players when they're not even given the chance.

You really think Zorn is calling a good game inside the RZ?[/quote]

I think there's a reason they arent given the chance. If I was Zorn I'd put these players out there, run it wide open and show once and for all that they cant do it the way its supposed to be done. That way I could go to mgmt and say see, I dont have the guys that can get it done. But that said I think Zorn knows this is a marathon and you have to play with the cards you are dealt so he is trying his best to put them in a position to succeed based on their limitations.

What I see in the RZ is pretty bad but I think Zorn calls plays based on the players he has not the players he wishes he had.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Rams)
 

First post after the game:

My main problems w/ the game was the playcalling on our RZ offense. I think we ran on all of the 1st downs. 4 I think. 1 down is one that defenses aren't real sure what you are going to run. You've got to run some routes in the end zone.

The Portis Throw was a horrible call. It wasn't even disguised well. It's like we are coming up w/ BS plays b/c we know we can't score w/ our normal offense.

The D came to play and gave up 7 pts. Yes, it wasn't pretty all day but effective. I don't care what anyone sais AH had another great game.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Rams)
 

[quote=irish;592778]True. This is all the same arguments and heartburn we had when the key guys couldnt score for Gibbs. Its becomming obvious its the players not the coaches.[/quote]

I think it is becoming obvious that may ALSO be the players.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Rams)
 

I do think JC probably struggles with the fade. Chase, Collins, and the other guy have all shown some ability at it. JC is a very line of sight type passer. Soooo if that's the case, maybe he needs a little bit of coaching on that. I wonder who works the most with the qb's.

I will defend the Portis throw to the end, especially since JC's ankle was hurt. Portis has thrown that before, and nearly hit it. A shot is a shot, and if JZ doesnt think Campbell can throw the touch, give it to someone who can. My biggest gripe is the last CP stretch run, not because the formation was bad but I think the defense was so anxious to over run it that a fake would have left Cooley wide open in the opposite direction.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Rams)
 

[quote=irish;592790]I think there's a reason they arent given the chance. If I was Zorn I'd put these players out there, run it wide open and show once and for all that they cant do it the way its supposed to be done. That way I could go to mgmt and say see, I dont have the guys that can get it done. But that said I think Zorn knows this is a marathon and you have to play with the cards you are dealt so he is trying his best to put them in a position to succeed based on their limitations.

What I see in the RZ is pretty bad but I think Zorn calls plays based on the players he has not the players he wishes he had.[/quote]

He's had 2 offseasons now to bring in "his guys". I'm not buying that excuse at this point.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Rams)
 

[quote=irish;592752]You should read Boswell's article in today's Wash Post. He basically says the O wasnt good at scoring under Gibbs and now with essentially the same guys they arent good at scoring under Zorn. Its the players, not the coaching. Think about it, the Moss & ARE are midgets so they get lost in the RZ. They only have 1 RB that's a threat so he's easily keyed on and stopped. JC throws a hard ball at close range which creates problems. Cooley as the only receiving threat is then double teamed and neutralized. The O can move up the field fine but just doesnt have the horses to be successful in the RZ.[/quote]

But Boswell also said...

"Once again, just as in '08, Zorn's biggest problem is the inability of his offensive coordinator to design plays, then call them appropriately, to score inside the 20-yard line. But Zorn is essentially his own final word on all offensive matters. So why yell at his team until he finishes berating himself?"

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Rams)
 

No excuses!

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Rams)
 

Regardless of all this finger pointing the bottom line is, we have played thus far like a team that should finish 6-10.

Who would have thought that through 2 games, Hunter Smith would have the team's only rushing TD AND that would be equal to the total number of TD's the 1st team offense scored? All things considered, I'd say its miraculous that we are 1-1 and could conceivably have be 2-0. Unless there are some serious changes made to the lifestyle/culture/attitude of this team immediately, we are headed for 6-10, though.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Rams)
 

[quote=Mattyk72;592800]He's had 2 offseasons now to bring in "his guys". I'm not buying that excuse at this point.[/quote]

Zorn cant bring anybody in, thats Vinny & Danny's job. They bring in who/what they want not necessarily what's best for the team.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Rams)
 

[quote=irish;592823]Zorn cant bring anybody in, thats Vinny & Danny's job. They bring in who/what they want not necessarily what's best for the team.[/quote]

Zorn has input.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Rams)
 

[quote=SmootSmack;592804]But Boswell also said...

"Once again, just as in '08, Zorn's biggest problem is the inability of his offensive coordinator to design plays, then call them appropriately, to score inside the 20-yard line. But Zorn is essentially his own final word on all offensive matters. So why yell at his team until he finishes berating himself?"[/quote]

Like I said, Zorn is trying to run plays these guys can handle and right now its not working well because the things these guys can handle are basic schemes and plays which are easy to defend. IMO, Zorn is handcuffed and he trying to wiggle his way out of these cuffs and protect his players. Its not gonna be easy or pretty.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Rams)
 

[quote=Mattyk72;592824]Zorn has input.[/quote]

Having input and being able to bring someone in are very different things. Bottom line is if Vinny & Danny dont want it it aint gonna happen.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Rams)
 

[quote=Southpaw;592709]Like most of the people here, my major issue was with Zorn's game management and play calling, but I'm a bit surprised that no one has mentioned [B]Jeremy Jarmon's boneheaded late hit on Bulger[/B], which basically took points off the board. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to a rookie mistake, but taking the ball away from the Rams inside their 20 yard line, and giving it back to them because of a stupid penalty was a momentum killer.[/quote]Also, Jeremy Jarmon wasn't even om the field on that play. Orakpo and Golston hit Bulger and I think what they called was hand to helmet contact by Golston, but in any case it was a technical roughing call, not actually extensive or unnecessary.

Teams that put pressure on the QB are going to draw roughing calls in today's game. I think the NFL realizes that they are creating unavoidable penalties, and just doesn't care all that much.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Rams)
 

[quote=irish;592827]Having input and being able to bring someone in are very different things. Bottom line is if Vinny & Danny dont want it it aint gonna happen.[/quote]

How does that differ from most front office setups around the league?

Bottom line, this team has weapons. Zorn is going into a shell in the RZ. Perhaps a lack of confidence in the players, or perhaps a lack of confidence in his plays, who knows. All I know it's up to him to figure out how to start turning 3's into 7's otherwise it's his butt that's on the line.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Rams)
 

[quote=Mattyk72;592830]How does that differ from most front office setups around the league?

Bottom line, this team has weapons. Zorn is going into a shell in the RZ. Perhaps a lack of confidence in the players, or perhaps a lack of confidence in his plays, who knows. All I know it's up to him to figure out how to start turning 3's into 7's otherwise it's his butt that's on the line.[/quote]

You know very well the Skins FO runs different than any team in the league except for maybe Oakland.

I dont think this team has the weapon some think it does and those "weapons" are easily neutralized in the RZ when the field is shortened. I agree, its up to Zorn to figure this out or else he's gone.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Rams)
 

Bottomline, we should have won by 20+ pts yesterday. We have stalled in the RZ and have not shown any homerun ability from outside the 20 thusfar. Something has to change or we are in for a long season when we play the upper tier teams. I could expect a game like that against the Steelers or the Ravens but this was the Rams. The same team that Seattle blew up last week. Whatever the problem or problemS are, Zorn better figure it out or his seat will get hot really quick

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Rams)
 

[quote=irish;592837]You know very well the Skins FO runs different than any team in the league except for maybe Oakland.

I dont think this team has the weapon some think it does and those "weapons" are easily neutralized in the RZ when the field is shortened. I agree, its up to Zorn to figure this out or else he's gone.[/quote]

I think you are making an unnecessary argument about the FO here...bottom line is Zorn needs to use the players that he has better in the RZ. His playcalling is terrible in those situation. It doesn't make any sense that the team has talent to move the ball easily between the 20s and to settle for FGs.


If anything, the FO needs to look at some of these so called playmakers (i.e. Moss) and make a decision whether it is time to part ways with them.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Rams)
 

[quote=irish;592837][B]You know very well the Skins FO runs different than any team in the league except for maybe Oakland.[/B]

I dont think this team has the weapon some think it does and those "weapons" are easily neutralized in the RZ when the field is shortened. I agree, its up to Zorn to figure this out or else he's gone.[/quote]

Maybe I don't know then.

There are plenty of teams where the head coach does not have the final say in every move.

You think Wade is making personnel calls in Dallas? Hell I don't even think Coughlin or Reid have the final say either.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Rams)
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection;592645]It's true, maybe my beef is with the secondary. Are we missing Springs THAT much? It's basically the same secondary that dominated last year and this year we're getting bitched on almost every third down.

Even though Carter is getting good pressure, [B]I was just thinking we'd see a few more sacks with the addition of Haynesworth and Orakpo.[/B] :([/quote]

Yeah, me too. Hard to believe we had more sacks over the first two games last year than we do this year.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Rams)
 

[quote=irish;592837]You know very well the Skins FO runs different than any team in the league except for maybe Oakland.[/quote]

You're just making stuff up now

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Rams)
 

Zorn didn't even hire his own coaches barring a couple. Let's not pretend this is Zorn's team. Not berating the guy, but our FO put together this team. I'm sure Zorn has input but i don't see him being the decision maker when it comes to personel.

Regardless, it's concerning we put up 9 pts and they know it. Hopefully it will get better. It's got to.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Rams)
 

[quote=redsk1;592848]Zorn didn't even hire his own coaches barring a couple. Let's not pretend this is Zorn's team. Not berating the guy, but our FO put together this team. I'm sure Zorn has input but i don't see him being the decision maker when it comes to personel.

Regardless, it's concerning we put up 9 pts and they know it. Hopefully it will get better. It's got to.[/quote]

I agree that all roads lead back to Redskins Park, but that does not mean that Zorn is not a liability at this point. It just means that Vinny and Dan were the ones that made him the coach.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Rams)
 

[quote=Ruhskins;592841]I think you are making an unnecessary argument about the FO here...bottom line is Zorn needs to use the players that he has better in the RZ. His playcalling is terrible in those situation. It doesn't make any sense that the team has talent to move the ball easily between the 20s and to settle for FGs.


If anything, the FO needs to look at some of these so called playmakers (i.e. Moss) and make a decision whether it is time to part ways with them.[/quote]

I agree Zorn needs to use the players better and I think he is trying to use them better based on their limitations but like I said, it isnt easy and it wont be pretty. These guys dont have the horsepower to score 30 ppg.

I agree about the FO. The Skins really dont have any playmakers or weapons and IMO its time to part ways with a whole bunch of these "weapons" on O. I doubt the FO will really do that as look at what they just did with Sellers. They should have let his contract run out and wish him well with any team that might take him.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Rams)
 

I think the fundamental question regarding the offense is whether the system is wrong, or if the players just aren't that good. I'm beginning to think it's the latter.

The only bonafide star that other teams would really want is Chris Cooley. But tight ends usually aren't going to be the difference makers in this league. Clinton Portis at this point in his career is good enough to get yardage, but he's no longer a game-breaking threat. We've got two young receivers that have yet to prove themselves, while our so-called #1, Santana Moss, isn't showing up. ARE is a possession guy who, again, isn't a game-breaker.

Point is, we didn't have the playmakers last year, and we don't have them again this year.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Rams)
 

[quote=Beemnseven;592862]I think the fundamental question regarding the offense is whether the system is wrong, or if the players just aren't that good. I'm beginning to think it's the latter.

The only bonafide star that other teams would really want is Chris Cooley. But tight ends usually aren't going to be the difference makers in this league. Clinton Portis at this point in his career is good enough to get yardage, but he's no longer a game-breaking threat. We've got two young receivers that have yet to prove themselves, while our so-called #1, Santana Moss, isn't showing up. ARE is a possession guy who, again, isn't a game-breaker.

Point is, we didn't have the playmakers last year, and we don't have them again this year.[/quote]


I couldnt have said it better myself.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Rams)
 

Just remember that it could always be worse.

[url=http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/199312110was.htm]New York Jets at Washington Redskins - December 11th, 1993 | Pro-Football-Reference.com[/url]

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Rams)
 

[quote=Beemnseven;592862]I think the fundamental question regarding the offense is whether the system is wrong, or if the players just aren't that good. I'm beginning to think it's the latter.

The only bonafide star that other teams would really want is Chris Cooley. But tight ends usually aren't going to be the difference makers in this league. Clinton Portis at this point in his career is good enough to get yardage, but he's no longer a game-breaking threat. We've got two young receivers that have yet to prove themselves, while our so-called #1, Santana Moss, isn't showing up. ARE is a possession guy who, again, isn't a game-breaker.

Point is, we didn't have the playmakers last year, and we don't have them again this year.[/quote]

Cooley didn't enter the league as a bonafide star. My point being how are we going to see if guys like Kelly, Mitchell, Fred Davis (heck, even Marcus Mason) can contribute if they're not given the right opportunities? What makes Colston and Robert Meachem for example so much better than Kelly and Mitchell? It's opportunities. I don't buy that we don't have the players to make things happen.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Rams)
 

[quote=SmootSmack;592896]Cooley didn't enter the league as a bonafide star. My point being how are we going to see if guys like Kelly, Mitchell, Fred Davis (heck, even Marcus Mason) can contribute if they're not given the right opportunities? What makes Colston and Robert Meachem for example so much better than Kelly and Mitchell? It's opportunities. I don't buy that we don't have the players to make things happen.[/quote]

I agree. I think other teams put their rookies in a position to succeed while we do the opposite. I have a hard time believing that we missed on ALL 3 second round picks. It seems like every time we throw a deep ball to Kelly or Thomas, Campbell misses them. I think Campbell has played very well, but we need to keep feeding these guys the ball.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Rams)
 

[U]I liked......[/U]
[B]McIntosh[/B]-was flying around making plays.
[B]Horton[/B]-this guy is gonna be a beast.
[B]Rogers[/B]-regardless of his inability to catch, he is our best cover corner. They need to start negotiating now, maybe we can save some money in the long run.

[U]I didnt like...[/U]
[B]Heyer[/B]-he is clearly a backup, several plays it looked like his feet were stuck in concrete. One play the defender was 4 yards into the backfield before his feet even moved an inch.
[B]Moss[/B]-what happened to what was once our most explosive playmaker. ST would be disappointed, he has lost the fire.
[B]Zorn[/B]-pathetic, but Im not surprised. If some dumbass(ME) can sit there and predict 95% of your plays, what makes you think its gonna surprise Spag's? This guy was a good QB coach, but he is in WAY over his head as the head coach.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Rams)
 

Zorn needs to work on the Red Zone calling and personnel. He's trying to be too fancy and it's biting him in the ass.

It's hard for me to believe that the Rams were able to take Cooley out of the game in the 2nd half (6 catches, 65 yards in the 1st half, 1 catch, 18 yards in the 2nd). And if that is the case, someone else (ARE, Moss, Kelly, Davis, etc) should have had a field day. The Rams pass defense isn't that good.

It's a shame that Devin Thomas hasn't stepped up to overtake Moss. I'd love to see Moss in the slot abusing nickel and dimers, and push ARE to the 4. Because from the looks of things, Moss will be outplayed all year long in the #1 spot.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Rams)
 

[quote=BDBohnzie;592931]It's a shame that Devin Thomas hasn't stepped up to overtake Moss. I'd love to see Moss in the slot abusing nickel and dimers, and push ARE to the 4. Because from the looks of things, Moss will be outplayed all year long in the #1 spot.[/quote]

Im tired of Moss, his heart should really be questioned. His effort so far IMO has been pathetic at best. Kelly looked like he is coming along, I wouldnt object to seeing more of Mitchell either. Moss doesnt deserve to bump ARE, ARE is looking great in the slot. After ST's death Moss played with so much emotion, he needs to get back to that. If he cant step up then trade Moss and get whatever you can for him at this point!!!

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Rams)
 

[quote=Beemnseven;592862]I think the fundamental question regarding the offense is whether the system is wrong, or if the players just aren't that good. I'm beginning to think it's the latter.

The only bonafide star that other teams would really want is Chris Cooley. But tight ends usually aren't going to be the difference makers in this league. Clinton Portis at this point in his career is good enough to get yardage, but he's no longer a game-breaking threat. We've got two young receivers that have yet to prove themselves, while our so-called #1, Santana Moss, isn't showing up. ARE is a possession guy who, again, isn't a game-breaker.

Point is, we didn't have the playmakers last year, and we don't have them again this year.[/quote]

We agree more often than not, but I'm going with the former on this one. I think it's system. However, the truth is usually found somewhere in the middle. But if I had to put it on one or the other I would say it's Zorn. Has to be. This team moved the ball up and down the field yesterday, almost at will, until it got into the red zone. The same Redskins players that amassed those stats between the 20s marched right into the red zone. It wasn't the players that changed, it was the play calling and the tempo. That's on Jim Zorn. Besides, how would you know if you have playmakers if you don't call the right plays to even find out? Further when I look around the league, there are more mediocre and average players than great ones. So it's not about having a stud at every position.

The Cowboys took Brandon Jacobs out of the game last night, so what does Coughlin do? He kept chucking the ball to Manningham. At some point Tom Couglin said, we can't score 30 points and keep up with the Cowboys pounding the ball up the middle. So he abandoned the run relatively early and spread the ball around. They even lost one of their top receivers and top defenders, both playmakers, and still pulled it out. That's good coaching.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Rams)
 

[quote=12thMan;592963]We agree more often than not, but I'm going with the former on this one. I think it's system. However, the truth is usually found somewhere in the middle. But if I had to put it on one or the other I would say it's Zorn. Has to be. [B]This team moved the ball up and down the field yesterday, almost at will, until it got into the red zone. The same Redskins players that amassed those stats between the 20s marched right into the red zone. It wasn't the players that changed, it was the play calling and the tempo. That's on Jim Zorn. [/B]Besides, how would you know if you have playmakers if you don't call the right plays to even find out? Further when I look around the league, there are more mediocre and average players than great ones. So it's not about having a stud at every position.

The Cowboys took Brandon Jacobs out of the game last night, so what does Coughlin do? He kept chucking the ball to Manningham. At some point Tom Couglin said, we can't score 30 points and keep up with the Cowboys pounding the ball up the middle. So he abandoned the run relatively early and spread the ball around. They even lost one of their top receivers and top defenders, both playmakers, and still pulled it out. That's good coaching.[/quote]

What was that stat they flashed during the game, something like the Skins avg yards per play was over 7 outside of the RZ and it dropped to 1 something in the RZ? Kinda points to a play calling issue to me.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Rams)
 

I've always been a JC supporter, and now more than ever [B]I feel some sympathy needs to be extended his way[/B] All the systems he's had to learn and forget about, and a HC in Zorn that's too much of a prick to trust him with the RZ offense. I want JC to succeed. I hope it's here in Washington. He's a mature player who's been in some situations where he's had to call a play or two on his own because the helmet microphone cut out.

[B]A losing record this year I personally think means a major overhaul. New D coordinator, new O-coordinator, new HC[/B]