Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=JoeRedskin]There you go, playing the martyr again. I have yet to see anyone - ANYONE- assert a) Ramsey stinks. b) Brunnell is a hall of famer. INSTEAD, it simply asserted that a) Brunnell played pretty well for us this year; b) Ramsey has limitations which, GENERALLY SPEAKING, seem to be less of a problem for Brunnell (sacks, ints, lack of mobility). Essentially, everyone supporting Brunnell is saying, Gibbs wants to win, Gibbs knows more about QB's than we (despite being well informed) will ever know.

There is not some dark conspiracy to hold Ramsey back, rather, the coach who got us back to the playoff felt more comfortable with Brunnell. Gibbs would play the Diet Pepsi Machine at QB if he thought it gave the Skins the best chance to win.

Am I satisfied with the team's performance? Yes and No. Do I wish we were going to the SB? Yup. I am happy with the progress and believe we will continue to do so. Yup. Do I trust that Gibbs is the right man to make the decisions as to how best to get to the SB (including deciding which QB gives us the best chance to win)? Yup.

This team has progressed mightily since Spurrier's last game and the orchestrator of that change has been Gibbs.

Are we a better team than Seattle? We weren't on that day and it was not ALL Brunnell's fault. Would we have won with Ramsey? Dunno, but I am betting not. That was a pretty ferocious pass rush and I believe PR would been sacked into last week.

Questions for you RC and Offiss:
Do you believe you know more than Gibbs when it comes to rating QB's?
Do you have a better insight than Gibbs as to what it takes to win playoff games?

Unless you can honestly answer yes to both those questions, your argument (that Ramsey should be or should have been starting) simply has no foundation.[/QUOTE]

Joe,

As well said as you put it, it won't mean a hill of beans to our colleagues who feel that Ramsey could have taken us to the Super Bowl.

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

PorterHouse did refer to Ramsey as Rat Pansy and he said he was an interception machine. I think that's insinuating that he can't play. At least that's my interpretation of it.

[url]http://www.thewarpath.net/showthread.php?t=10649&page=12&pp=10&highlight=Rat+Pansy[/url]

Also, I'm not getting into taking sides, I'm just putting it out there that someone has asserted that Ramsey can't play.

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=12thMan]Joe,

As well said as you put it, it won't mean a hill of beans to our colleagues who feel that Ramsey could have taken us to the Super Bowl.[/QUOTE]

First - Thanks. Second, yes I know.

Offiss's and RC56's refusal to acknowledge the underlying premise of their argument (that they are a better judge of who should be playing than JG) is that which is most frustrating to me and the only reason I have voiced an opinion. Also, I find the consistent:
1) twisting of the conclusion that, in coming to MB's defense, we somehow believe he is the end all and be all of QB's; and

2) assertion (both explicit and implicit) that, by accepting Gibbs choice of MB over PR, we all hate PR and think he is a big giant no talent shmo.

to be both disengenous and intellectually dishonest.

I like PR - always will, I wish him the best where ever he goes. Frankly, I hope he and Gibbs can work something out for him to stay one more year (through the end of his k). I think this would give us one of the best and possibly THE best QB situation in the league. I just trust that Gibbs overriding desire to win will always prevail and that despite his personal likes, dislikes, or whatever, Gibbs will go with the player he believes will win.

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=jdlea]PorterHouse did refer to Ramsey as Rat Pansy and he said he was an interception machine. I think that's insinuating that he can't play. At least that's my interpretation of it.

[url]http://www.thewarpath.net/showthread.php?t=10649&page=12&pp=10&highlight=Rat+Pansy[/url]

Also, I'm not getting into taking sides, I'm just putting it out there that someone has asserted that Ramsey can't play.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough. But the majority of posters have expressed their respect for Ramsey and, certainly, I doubt that the majority of those involved in the back and forth on this subject wouldn't support the "Rat Pansy" remark. As for being "a turnover machine", taken by itself it could be seen as saying Ramsey "can't play". But, while I consider it an overstatement, it is one of the big knocks on Ramsey and a reason why - despite Ramsey's excellent arm, toughness, and solid leadership abilities - Gibbs prefered Brunnell.

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=JoeRedskin]Fair enough. But the majority of posters have expressed their respect for Ramsey and, certainly, I doubt that the majority of those involved in the back and forth on this subject wouldn't support the "Rat Pansy" remark. As for being "a turnover machine", taken by itself it could be seen as saying Ramsey "can't play". But, while I consider it an overstatement, it is one of the big knocks on Ramsey and a reason why - despite Ramsey's excellent arm, toughness, and solid leadership abilities - Gibbs prefered Brunnell.[/QUOTE]

I don't disagree with what you said, I simply wanted to illustrate that at least PorterHouse felt the need to down him further than saying that "he's not the best fit for the Gibbs O." I'm not taking either side, I just remember that was said and I wouldn't to try to show why RC or Offiss might be feeling that way.

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=Monksdown]1st ballot? Whatever your smoking, send some my way.[/QUOTE]

LMAO you haven't been reading my posts ...that was tongue in cheek ...I am no brunell fan.

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

What i see is no matter when PR's name comes up some poeple have every negative thing they can say about him.... I mean look at the Ramsey threads...... and showing his hand and stuff I'm called a Brunell hater but under that same interpretation...most are Ramsey haters too......Cant have it both ways..

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=railcon56@comcast.net]What i see is no matter when PR's name comes up some poeple have every negative thing they can say about him.... I mean look at the Ramsey threads...... and showing his hand and stuff I'm called a Brunell hater but under that same interpretation...most are Ramsey haters too......Cant have it both ways..[/QUOTE]

Dude, someone saying that Ramsey has showed his hand, if that's what you're referring to, is not hating. It's simply saying that we....you know what, never mind.....

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

Instead of rules for duplicate threads we should have rules for duplicate post.

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Some people just hate Brunell that much I guess. Why I don't know, perhaps they just can't get '04 outta their minds despite him having a Pro Bowl caliber '05 season. Yeah I know, what about the last 3 games? Well, what about looking at the entire season, I know it's hard to think back that far but if you can still remember '04 I'm sure you can handle it.

If someone is seriously not going to watch games if Brunell plays I say fine, just one less fair weather fan we don't need.[/QUOTE]


I woudn't say that lets look at a couple of my posts

[url="http://www.thewarpath.net/showthread.php?t=8657"]http://www.thewarpath.net/showthread.php?t=8657[/url]

[b]A DAY Of Perfection[/b]
What a great day...Brunell threw the ball Long and well he played great...Portis ran well... LA played very well.... Even my boy Ramsey got in the game I'm very happy.....
__________________
Run or Pass and Score ..We Want Alot More!!!!

e: Skins fans should hope Ramsey starts and does well for the offseason (merged)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But look if Mark does play i more than hope he has an All WORLD DAY!!!! I just personally think Ramsey is a better QB...but 1st of all I want the Skins to beat the eagles sweep.... we have nothing but eagles fans and dallas fans at work ..(I live in PA) i already have my broom redy right by the door.... and i am gonna be the biggest asshole to those fans like they were to me for so many years...
__________________
Run or Pass and Score ..We Want Alot More!!!!



I belive I am wishing him well here! Not a hater !!

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=railcon56@comcast.net]I woudn't say that lets look at a couple of my posts

[url="http://www.thewarpath.net/showthread.php?t=8657"]http://www.thewarpath.net/showthread.php?t=8657[/url]

[b]A DAY Of Perfection[/b]
What a great day...Brunell threw the ball Long and well he played great...Portis ran well... LA played very well.... Even my boy Ramsey got in the game I'm very happy.....
__________________
Run or Pass and Score ..We Want Alot More!!!!

e: Skins fans should hope Ramsey starts and does well for the offseason (merged)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But look if Mark does play i more than hope he has an All WORLD DAY!!!! I just personally think Ramsey is a better QB...but 1st of all I want the Skins to beat the eagles sweep.... we have nothing but eagles fans and dallas fans at work ..(I live in PA) i already have my broom redy right by the door.... and i am gonna be the biggest asshole to those fans like they were to me for so many years...
__________________
Run or Pass and Score ..We Want Alot More!!!!



I belive I am wishing him well here! Not a hater !![/QUOTE]

RC56, let me ask you a question, and I'm just trying to understand where you are coming from.

Why, [i][b]exactly[/b][/i], do you feel Patrick is a better QB than Brunell?

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

Because at the end of 2004 Ramsey started playing very well... here is a stat from the Giant game that year



Ramsey Rolls: Playing second fiddle to Mark Brunell through the first part of the season, QB Patrick Ramsey rolled the Redskins to his first victory this season as the starter. The 3rd-year pro tossed 3 touchdowns in a 19-for-22, 174-yard day and a blistering 139.2 rating.



I think he opens the offense up more and has a better arm... I think Brunell has limitations there are just throws he can't make but Patrick can.... In the 1st game he looked crisp and was just starting to get the rhythm of the game.... and I feel this was his break out year....







I think he is tough and smart the poor man took a pounding for years and fought tooth and nail...he has kept a positive attitude... Sure Brunell has more experience but this was Patrick’s 2nd year under Gibbs and he had a better grasp of the offense than last year.... But if you have an offense where all you do is throw 10 yard passes sure you will get touchdowns but throwing it down the field opens up so many other things ...Patrick has proven he can do all those ... people are asking for Campbell to get playing time ...well you have to play to learn you can only get so much from practice... he had improved steadily and now he had a fast receiver I feel he could have gotten the ball down field with more consistency than brunell.... that would have given Cooley and screens more room teams wouldn't be able to afford to play us with 8 men in the box cause the the deep pass would have been open... I watched brunell I was at the Raider game and the San Diego Games and there were open people but brunell can't hold the ball like other Qb's till that last minute and make a throw....he just cant take them anymore.... Patrick is more than willing to take a hit for the team and make that throw he is younger bigger and stronger.... Plus I remember when he was pounded he always got up he's tough... after suffering though out all that I felt he deserved playing time to see if he could do it... he's earned at least that When Brunell goes back to throw he doesn’t take a 3,4or 5 step drop I counted about 8 look at the film he runs right out of the pocket…because he cant take a hit anymore. Several times I saw Cooley open if he would have just stopped and thrown a quick pass on like 3rd and 2…. But he had to get way back… and then set on a pass like that it’s a minor flick of the wrist for Ramsey…. So if he never plays we will never know whether he could have made those plays but I feel at least when brunell was hurt he deserved the chance to get in there ….Brunell was obviously hurt and he hurt team in the end by not admitting it…. It’s like the year Brad Johnson took the Bucs to the Superbowl his arm was lively cause he had been hurt most of the year….an older Qb’s arm just wears down… Brunell may have looked good earlier in the season but by the end of the year it looked pretty weak….I tried to remember 1 pass from week 7 on where brunell hit a pass over the middle over 10 yards ….that’s a part of our offense and was one less option the defense has to cover…But that’s my opinion why I think Patrick is better… but I always wanted Brunell to play great and win. …….... I just think Gibbs got to wrapped up in Brunell…. Not saying there was any coaching conspiracy or anything crazy like that…..

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

Sorry dont know how the font got so large..dont know really how to edit it down.......

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=railcon56@comcast.net]Sorry dont know how the font got so large..dont know really how to edit it down.......[/QUOTE]

that's cool man, I just wanted to sorta hear you get it all out.

we've been pretty much going around in bits and pieces for a while that's all.


p.s. tell offiss i asked about him when you see him:)

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=12thMan]that's cool man, I just wanted to sorta hear you get it all out.

we've been pretty much going around in bits and pieces for a while that's all.


p.s. tell offiss i asked about him when you see him:)[/QUOTE]
Thanks Very much

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=railcon56@comcast.net]Because at the end of 2004 Ramsey started playing very well... here is a stat from the Giant game that year



Ramsey Rolls: Playing second fiddle to Mark Brunell through the first part of the season, QB Patrick Ramsey rolled the Redskins to his first victory this season as the starter. The 3rd-year pro tossed 3 touchdowns in a 19-for-22, 174-yard day and a blistering 139.2 rating.



I think he opens the offense up more and has a better arm... I think Brunell has limitations there are just throws he can't make but Patrick can.... In the 1st game he looked crisp and was just starting to get the rhythm of the game.... and I feel this was his break out year....







I think he is tough and smart the poor man took a pounding for years and fought tooth and nail...he has kept a positive attitude... Sure Brunell has more experience but this was Patrick’s 2nd year under Gibbs and he had a better grasp of the offense than last year.... But if you have an offense where all you do is throw 10 yard passes sure you will get touchdowns but throwing it down the field opens up so many other things ...Patrick has proven he can do all those ... people are asking for Campbell to get playing time ...well you have to play to learn you can only get so much from practice... he had improved steadily and now he had a fast receiver I feel he could have gotten the ball down field with more consistently than brunell.... that would have given Cooley and screens more room teams would be able to afford to play us with 8 men in the box cause we they the deep pass would have been open... I watched brunell I was at the Raider game and the San Diego Games and there were open people but brunell can't hold the ball like other Qb's till that last minute and make a throw....he just cant take them anymore.... Patrick is more than willing to take a hit for the team and make that throw he is younger bigger and stronger.... Plus I remember when he was pounded he always got up he's tough... after suffering though out all that I felt he deserved playing time to see if he could do it... he's earned at least that When Brunell goes back to throw he doesn’t take a 3,4or 5 step drop I counted about 8 look at the film he runs right out of the pocket…because he cant take a hit anymore. Several times I saw Cooley open if he would have just stopped and thrown a quick pass on like 3rd and 2…. But he had to get way back… and then set on a pass like that it’s a minor flick of the wrist for Ramsey…. So if he never plays we will never know whether he could have made those plays but I feel at least when brunell was hurt he deserved the chance to get in there ….Brunell was obviously hurt and he hurt team in the end by not admitting it…. It’s like the year Brad Johnson took the Bucs to the Superbowl his arm was lively cause he had been hurt most of the year….an older Qb’s arm just wears down… Brunell may have looked good earlier in the season but by the end of the year it looked pretty weak….I tried to remember 1 pass from week 7 on where brunell hit a pass over the middle over 10 yards ….that’s a part of our offense and was one less option the defense has to cover…But that’s my opinion why I think Patrick is better… but I always wanted Brunell to play great and win. …….... I just think Gibbs got to wrapped up in Brunell…. Not saying there was any coaching conspiracy or anything crazy like that…..[/QUOTE]


Exellent explaination Rail, that is a very good breakdown of the game that the average fan doesn't really percieve.

And I am not saying that Brunell backers are average, I don't want to start another war here. :)

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=railcon56@comcast.net]Because at the end of 2004 Ramsey started playing very well [...] I think he opens the offense up more and has a better arm... I think Brunell has limitations there are just throws he can't make but Patrick can.... In the 1st game he looked crisp and was just starting to get the rhythm of the game.... and I feel this was his break out year....




I think he is tough and smart the poor man took a pounding for years and fought tooth and nail...he has kept a positive attitude... Sure Brunell has more experience but this was Patrick’s 2nd year under Gibbs and he had a better grasp of the offense than last year.... But if you have an offense where all you do is throw 10 yard passes sure you will get touchdowns but throwing it down the field opens up so many other things ...Patrick has proven he can do all those ... [] ...well you have to play to learn you can only get so much from practice... he had improved steadily and now he had a fast receiver I feel he could have gotten the ball down field with more consistently than brunell.... that would have given Cooley and screens more room teams would be able to afford to play us with 8 men in the box cause we they the deep pass would have been open... I watched brunell I was at the Raider game and the San Diego Games and there were open people but brunell can't hold the ball like other Qb's till that last minute and make a throw....he just cant take them anymore.... Patrick is more than willing to take a hit for the team and make that throw he is younger bigger and stronger.... Plus I remember when he was pounded he always got up he's tough... after suffering though out all that I felt he deserved playing time to see if he could do it... he's earned at least that When Brunell goes back to throw he doesn’t take a 3,4or 5 step drop I counted about 8 look at the film he runs right out of the pocket…because he cant take a hit anymore. Several times I saw Cooley open if he would have just stopped and thrown a quick pass on like 3rd and 2…. But he had to get way back… and then set on a pass like that it’s a minor flick of the wrist for Ramsey…. So if he never plays we will never know whether he could have made those plays but I feel at least when brunell was hurt he deserved the chance to get in there ….Brunell was obviously hurt and he hurt team in the end by not admitting it…. It’s like the year Brad Johnson took the Bucs to the Superbowl his arm was lively cause he had been hurt most of the year….an older Qb’s arm just wears down… Brunell may have looked good earlier in the season but by the end of the year it looked pretty weak….I tried to remember 1 pass from week 7 on where brunell hit a pass over the middle over 10 yards ….that’s a part of our offense and was one less option the defense has to cover…But that’s my opinion why I think Patrick is better… but I always wanted Brunell to play great and win. …….... I just think Gibbs got to wrapped up in Brunell…. Not saying there was any coaching conspiracy or anything crazy like that…..[/QUOTE]

See, I agree with a lot of these statements. Up until you get to "I just think Gibbs got to wrapped up in Brunell". That's the crux of our disagreement.

Obviously, everyone is entitled to an opinion - but my point is and has been: Gibbs is smarter than us, Gibbs is dedicated to winning, and, if Gibbs believes Brunnell is the best QB for the job, then I trust that decision.

I guess I think anything (and everything) you can/have observed has been meticulously broken down by Gibbs and staff in film sessions. In reviewing that information, if Gibbs believed that PR was the better man for the job, I believe Gibbs would not have hesitated to put Ramsey in.

Also, in fairness, you have deliniated the areas in which Ramsey is better than Brunnell, mostly (and I agree with these): arm strength, toughness and youth. In addition, I would include leadership - b/c it seemed clear to me that his teammates always liked and supported him. [I would add that, although Ramsey is undoubtedly a tough cookie, Brunnelll is no shrinking violet. He took some vicious hits and came back for more and NEVER pointed any fingers at anyone but himself.]

With that said, and to really rid yourself of the "Brunnell hater" label - can you tell me anything you think Brunnell is better at than Ramsey? Or at the least indicate that you recognize some of Ramsey's shortcomings? Seriously, looking at his body of work, do you think Ramsey has not demonstrated any limitations?

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=JoeRedskin]See, I agree with a lot of these statements. Up until you get to "I just think Gibbs got to wrapped up in Brunell". That's the crux of our disagreement.

Obviously, everyone is entitled to an opinion - but my point is and has been: Gibbs is smarter than us, Gibbs is dedicated to winning, and, if Gibbs believes Brunnell is the best QB for the job, then I trust that decision.

I guess I think anything (and everything) you can/have observed has been meticulously broken down by Gibbs and staff in film sessions. In reviewing that information, if Gibbs believed that PR was the better man for the job, I believe Gibbs would not have hesitated to put Ramsey in.

Also, in fairness, you have deliniated the areas in which Ramsey is better than Brunnell, mostly (and I agree with these): arm strength, toughness and youth. In addition, I would include leadership - b/c it seemed clear to me that his teammates always liked and supported him. [I would add that, although Ramsey is undoubtedly a tough cookie, Brunnelll is no shrinking violet. He took some vicious hits and came back for more and NEVER pointed any fingers at anyone but himself.]

With that said, and to really rid yourself of the "Brunnell hater" label - can you tell me anything you think Brunnell is better at than Ramsey? Or at the least indicate that you recognize some of Ramsey's shortcomings? Seriously, looking at his body of work, do you think Ramsey has not demonstrated any limitations?[/QUOTE]
I think Brunell is mobile and is smart about knowing where he is on the field for one I think that brunell recognizes when to get rid of the ball and throws a better touch pass.... he's likable i like his personality and i do respect him playing injured cause i do know when i was playing i didn't want to come out of that game unless i was dead..... he always knows where the sticks are......I think he is a good Qb i really do i just get mad and i think it's unfair when people just write Ramsey off and down him.....I'm just an very loyal person and i remember ramsey's tough years... But I can respect that Loyal side of Gibbs too ...

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=railcon56@comcast.net]I think Brunell is mobile and is smart about knowing where he is on the field for one I think that brunell recognizes when to get rid of the ball and throws a better touch pass.... he's likable i like his personality and i do respect him playing injured cause i do know when i was playing i didn't want to come out of that game unless i was dead..... he always knows where the sticks are......I think he is a good Qb i really do i just get mad and i think it's unfair when people just write Ramsey off and down him.....I'm just an very loyal person and i remember ramsey's tough years... But I can respect that Loyal side of Gibbs too ...[/QUOTE]

Fair enough. Thanks.

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=JoeRedskin]Fair enough. Thanks.[/QUOTE]
Thank You Also

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

I nominate 12thMan for some sort of moderator or peacekeeper........

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

How exactly was Ramsey looking "crisp" against the Bears in week 1 with this stat line:

6 of 11 for 105 yards, sacked twice, 1 INT, 2 fumbles, rating of 49.4

Just curious, maybe an average fan like myself can't pick up on this sort of stellar play.

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]How exactly was Ramsey looking "crisp" against the Bears in week 1 with this stat line:

6 of 11 for 105 yards, sacked twice, 1 INT, 2 fumbles, rating of 49.4

Just curious, maybe an average fan like myself can't pick up on this sort of stellar play.[/QUOTE]

If it weren't for the malfunctioning PS2 remote that Greg Williams had, he would've done much better....

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]How exactly was Ramsey looking "crisp" against the Bears...[/QUOTE]

Oh now we got to bring Joe Crisp into it?? What's that all about Matty? What about Brud, when's he going to get his shot? :hater:

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=Redskins88]If it weren't for the malfunctioning PS2 remote that Greg Williams had, he would've done much better....[/QUOTE]

Ahhhh I forgot about that.

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]Oh now we got to bring Joe Crisp into it?? What's that all about Matty? What about Brud, when's he going to get his shot? :hater:[/QUOTE]

When in doubt, blame Crisp!

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]How exactly was Ramsey looking "crisp" against the Bears in week 1 with this stat line:

6 of 11 for 105 yards, sacked twice, 1 INT, 2 fumbles, rating of 49.4

Just curious, maybe an average fan like myself can't pick up on this sort of stellar play.[/QUOTE]I have stated my opinion i would rather let this die out.......

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]Oh now we got to bring Joe Crisp into it?? What's that all about Matty? What about Brud, when's he going to get his shot? :hater:[/QUOTE]
LOL Tafkas