Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[quote=FrenchSkin;1273619]Sorry pal, you're just wrong on that one. You're confusing an illegal touching of the ball and recovering the ball. [/quote]

I'm not. Touching the ball, whether caught or just touched does not make it dead. It's dead when the play is over and the ref blows up. If he carries the ball over the line before the ref blows, it's still live. That's why they ruled a touchback. That's why kicking teams try to bat the ball back into play before they make contact with the end zone; it's still live until it's blown dead. If it was dead at the point of touching, all they would have to do was make contact and not care where it ends up.

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[QUOTE=AnonEmouse;1273637]I'm not. Touching the ball, whether caught or just touched does not make it dead. It's dead when the play is over and the ref blows up. If he carries the ball over the line before the ref blows, it's still live. That's why they ruled a touchback. That's why kicking teams try to bat the ball back into play before they make contact with the end zone; it's still live until it's blown dead. If it was dead at the point of touching, all they would have to do was make contact and not care where it ends up.[/QUOTE]Again, you're confusing touching and recovering the ball. Touching doesn't make it a dead ball. Recovering it does. Please read my previous posts with attention, the rules and experts analysis say it better than me.

A player of the kicking team recovering (NOT TOUCHING, RECOVERING) the ball renders it dead, play is over. The crossing the goal line rule is for either touching the ball or simultaneously recovering and crossing the line.

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[quote=punch it in;1273621]Definitely right again. It somehow did not touch any of the Bucs players. Just our luck. Lol. So many little things that could have swung this game. The big one is that squib kick. That was just absolutely nonsense. Turning point imo. We had momentum for a brief moment until our coaching staff out thought themselves. A little bit of a bad habit if you ask me.[/quote]

Yes, but I'd be curious if the ST coach asked Ron, or Ron asked him. Ultimately it sits with RR to make those decisions but if both of them thought it was a great idea that worries me a little. Personally I don't want an ST coach that's gungho about making plays like that. I want a guy to exercise caution and a HC that is the one to take (and accept) the risks.

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[quote=AnonEmouse;1273637]I'm not. Touching the ball, whether caught or just touched does not make it dead. It's dead when the play is over and the ref blows up. If he carries the ball over the line before the ref blows, it's still live. That's why they ruled a touchback. That's why kicking teams try to bat the ball back into play before they make contact with the end zone; it's still live until it's blown dead. If it was dead at the point of touching, all they would have to do was make contact and not care where it ends up.[/quote]

Here we go:
[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agkHw7phYII"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agkHw7phYII[/URL]

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[QUOTE=AnonEmouse;1273643]Here we go:

[URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agkHw7phYII[/URL][/QUOTE]Yeah, exactly my point. This one is a bang bang play. I get the feeling you're not reading my posts.

Envoyé de mon SM-J320FN en utilisant Tapatalk

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[quote=FrenchSkin;1273648]Yeah, exactly my point. This one is a bang bang play. I get the feeling you're not reading my posts.

Envoyé de mon SM-J320FN en utilisant Tapatalk[/quote]

It's not bang bang. In that case Freeney caught it at the 4 (in the air) landed at the 3 then took 3 steps and stepped on the line. Had it been dead where he touched it/established the catch, the official would have blown up and given possession at the 4. His movement/momentum carried him into the endzone, just like Apke on Saturday. The play is not dead until the official whistles that the ball has been downed (ball or knee etc. touches the ground in possession) or the player in possession has stopped moving and given himself up.

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

Fun game to watch. I really enjoyed my Saturday night. Just wish the front 4 could have gotten to Brady a bit more and did better with run D.

Run game needs to be corrected. Gibson 14 carries 31 yards was a horrible showing. Im not sure what the solution is. Perhaps an upgrade at LT and LG but that doesnt account for the no gain runs up the middle or the right where we have Sherff-Moses. Id be curious to see Moses run grade. Doesnt seem to dominate/set the edge.

run D - gave up 142 yards on 29 carries.

Defense gave up 507 total yards. Our D disappointed on the big stage. They wanted it, they get paid the big bucks ... and gave up 507 yards and kept allowing 4-7 yard runs on them.

Chase Young should have feasted on their LT Smith .. whom their fans dont think highly of. On pas plays many times he was left 1 on 1 without help and Chase didnt impact the play. im sure Chase will replay the game many times in his head this offseason and use it as motivation.

Chase got shut out by a Donovan Smith.

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

I don't think Gibson was ever close to being back to 100% after the toe injury. I think we can still add to the RB group in the draft.

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[quote=AnonEmouse;1273652]It's not bang bang. In that case Freeney caught it at the 4 (in the air) landed at the 3 then took 3 steps and stepped on the line. Had it been dead where he touched it/established the catch, the official would have blown up and given possession at the 4. His movement/momentum carried him into the endzone, just like Apke on Saturday. The play is not dead until the official whistles that the ball has been downed (ball or knee etc. touches the ground in possession) or the player in possession has stopped moving and given himself up.[/quote]

One last time, because it was only funny the first five.

From the [URL="https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/2020-nfl-rulebook/"]NFL rule book.[/URL]

"If the kickers [I][U]catch or recover[/U][/I] a kick beyond the line that has not been touched beyond the line by the receiving team, [B]the ball is dead[/B], and it is first-and-10 for the receivers [I][U]at the spot of catch or recovery[/U][/I]"

This is very basic. Player of the kicking team recovers the ball, ball is dead, play is over.

Now, because of the [I][U]NFL rule tweak[/U][/I] to allow a player to batt the ball back across the goal line and down it without it being a touchback (which isn't possible with NCAA/IFAF rules), they had to specify which one is and isn't a touchback in this situation, hence the rule you're referring to:

"If a player of the kicking team illegally catches or recovers a scrimmage kick, other than a field-goal attempt from beyond the 20-yard line, and touches the goal line with any part of his body while in possession of the ball, [I][I][U]the ball is dead[/U][/I][/I], and the result of the play is a touchback".

But please note that they precise "the ball is dead", which highlights they're referring to bang bang situations, [I][U]otherwise the ball is already dead when it's caught.[/U][/I]

This is why IMO this rule is not well written... and this is why it got refs confused on Sunday. Not only according to me, whose legitimacy isn't sufficient, but to[URL="https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/30656411/questionable-nfl-playoff-officiating-decisions-happened-which-were-right"] ESPN writer [/URL]:

"The ball should have been marked where Apke first gained possession, and not a touchback. By rule, a kick that goes past the line of scrimmage is dead as soon as a member of the kicking team downs it. The ball can't be advanced. There are many judgment calls over the course of a game that can be debated. [I][U]This one was a matter of rule application[/U][/I]. Washington should have been able to pin the Buccaneers deeper than it did."

And also according to [URL="https://twitter.com/RobinBarde/status/1348660158071713792"]NBC's rules analyst during the game[/URL], listen to what he said "it's common sense that tells you it shouldn't have been applied on this play [...] [I][U]I think the play was over and had nothing to do with why the rule is there[/U][/I]".

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[quote=FrenchSkin;1273612]Nah I watched it 20 times and I really don't think it did.[/quote]

They showed the close up replay at the angle to see it from ONE TIME. Coming right out of the commercial break. The ball hit the bag on his back/butt. For sure. I'm pretty sure that Dungy even started to comment on it, but Tirico cut him off to bring in the rules expert to talk about it being a touchback. They focused on the touchback vs. no touchback ruling, rather than the more important issue that the ball hit the Buc. I can't find the full replay anywhere, do you have it?

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[quote=Number44;1273660]They showed the close up replay at the angle to see it from ONE TIME. Coming right out of the commercial break. The ball hit the bag on his back/butt. For sure. I'm pretty sure that Dungy even started to comment on it, but Tirico cut him off to bring in the rules expert to talk about it being a touchback. They focused on the touchback vs. no touchback ruling, rather than the more important issue that the ball hit the Buc. I can't find the full replay anywhere, do you have it?[/quote]

Yeah I have it on the game pass and I really don't think it did touch him.

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[quote=FrenchSkin;1273661]Yeah I have it on the game pass and I really don't think it did touch him.[/quote]

Look for the one close up shot showing the player's back after the commercial break. If you have the whole video, you will see it. The ball clearly hit his fanny pack or whatever it's called. I don't see it anywhere on the internet, which is kinda weird in and of itself. Usually you can find virtually any play. Game highlight video I found skipped the punt play altogether.

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[quote=Number44;1273665]Look for the one close up shot showing the player's back after the commercial break. If you have the whole video, you will see it. The ball clearly hit his fanny pack or whatever it's called. I don't see it anywhere on the internet, which is kinda weird in and of itself. Usually you can find virtually any play. Game highlight video I found skipped the punt play altogether.[/quote]

[URL="https://twitter.com/RobinBarde/status/1348672737640910849"]There you go[/URL], edited all angles.

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

First angle is the best, pretty clear it didn't touch him IMO

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

This doesn't show the close up I'm talking about, but at 27 seconds in of 29 you can detect it if you look closely. The tumbling of the ball changes direction when it brushes the bag. The ball is tumbling forward, then tumbles backwards a little after the point of the ball hits the bag - unless it somehow changed its rotation in mid-air. Look at it. As the ball is rotating, the back point is coming end-over-end over the top of the ball, then suddenly reverses and the back point is rotating down - under the ball. Hard for me to find the right words to describe what I'm talking about. Hopefully, you can get my meaning and see the sudden change right when the front point of ball is at the bag. The close up they showed had it clear and unmistakable. All of us watching here saw it clearly. There was a much closer view directly at his back and it hit the bag. Sure would be nice to see seconds 30 thru 40 on this that they don't show here - that's probably where the close-up view was. Or, looking at it again, actually there is a skip in the tape right around second 22. They superimpose the NBC logo right there and flash forward a little bit instead of rolling what was being shown and said. Perhaps that is where the close up shot was. Pointless to continue without seeing that view unless you can make out the ball rotation change I'm talking about where the ball changes from an obvious forward bouncing roll to a virtually straight down vertical drop, with the back point coming down in a backward motion and hitting the ground. Having seen the close-up, the ball rotation change is easy for me to see. The ball was tumbling forward, the point hit the bag and it immediately tumbled back.
Hopefully, you can see it. Apke and the Redskins around the play knew it hit the Buc. Look at their reaction. I think the ref's initial react was the same, if you look at his body language (number 111). If you can't see it, I'm not going to convince you unless the close up view can be found. It is for sure that I'm not going to forget what I saw.

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

It touched him, we got hosed per the norm.

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

They play ended the game was jd catch and fumble out of bounds. He catches it clean or they make the proper ruling (catch,fumble out of bound and it then returns to the spot) then 3rd and 5 changes the landscape on the final drive.

Refs kinda fucked us and we couldn’t challenge and just was out of the 2 minute auto review zone..

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

So....got two guys on Youtube telling me Sims’ TD wasn’t a catch. I’ve asked them to explain to me how a clearly caught ball, with two hands on it, with two feet in bounds, that maybe moved a millimeter or two after he was three steps out of bounds wasn’t a catch. I’ll update you when they reply. 🤦*♂️🙄

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

It was close. I honestly thought they were going to call it incomplete.

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[quote=MissouriSkin;1273702]So....got two guys on Youtube telling me Sims’ TD wasn’t a catch. I’ve asked them to explain to me how a clearly caught ball, with two hands on it, with two feet in bounds, that maybe moved a millimeter or two after he was three steps out of bounds wasn’t a catch. I’ll update you when they reply. 🤦*♂️🙄[/quote]

Really annoying how we pick plays apart in replay these days especially on catches. He clearly never lost control and had both feet down. The ball can jostle around as long as the receiver doesn't lose control of it. That was an easy call IMO but during the game it did start to make me nervous with how long they reviewed it for.

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[quote=MTK;1273704]Really annoying how we pick plays apart in replay these days especially on catches. He clearly never lost control and had both feet down. The ball can jostle around as long as the receiver doesn't lose control of it. That was an easy call IMO but during the game it did start to make me nervous with how long they reviewed it for.[/quote]

Yeah, as Dungy said at the time, "That's been a catch for a hundred years."

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[quote=Number44;1273705]Yeah, as Dungy said at the time, "That's been a catch for a hundred years."[/quote]

Exactly. Dungy said out loud what real football fans thought. He also added breaking every catch down in micro seconds causes doubts...paraphrase...

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[quote=Number44;1273705]Yeah, as Dungy said at the time, "That's been a catch for a hundred years."[/quote]

What would help would be the rule saying “clearly caught, two feet down and once he is out of bounds...play over.” I’ve never understood how you can say it wasn’t a catch after two feet in bounds a then lose it after sliding five yards out of bounds...once you’re out...the play is over. Sims may have slightly bobbled it for a quarter second after he was a couple of steps out of bounds...but again....why does that matter? The play was over.

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

It was a hose job by the refs on many many many accounts. Tom Brady and continued Redskins treatment

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

Side note, I am overly excited for the day of a full stadium of fans again... when we score... hearing the old fight song. Can't wait for ppl to cry about it... can... not... wait.

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[IMG]https://xflboard.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/taylor-Heinicke-wild-card-1024x768.jpg[/IMG]

^^ that was an awesome moment Saturday, i know my house was loud

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[yt]g0lL5sGUKpc[/yt]

Tom Brady mic'd up from Saturday night. You can hear his conversations with Chase in-game and Alex Smith post-game. Chase was trying to give him some love and Brady seemed like he was cool with it. Post-game Brady was giving Alex Smith some love but it sounds like Alex wasn't in a good mood because we took the L/the season/his career is over.