Re: Why Are We So Divided On Jason Campbell?
 

[quote=12thMan;629519]In an effort to narrow the scope of our conversation when it comes to evaluting Jason Campbell and possibly his future as a Washington Redskin, I want to broach this topic from a different angle. His stats are what they are, so there's no debating his production. We're well aware of the woes along the offensive line and the carousel of offensive coordinators and systems since he's been here. Been there, done that. But it's perplexing to me how we all watch the same guy for five years now and yet we're still split down the middle on him.

If I throw out a few names like Philip Rivers or Eli Manning, Donovan McNabb or David Garrard, most fans could tell you with certainty what they like and dislike about those QBs, but there's also consensus whether or not they're good enough to take their teams to the next level. Not so with Campbell and Redskins fans it seems.

Most Skins fans fall into one of two camps when opining about Jason

Campbell: a) [I]He has all the tools and potential, but he needs more help and talent around him and has been handcuffed, to some extent, by the team's offensive philosphy or b) Campbell has had long enough to develop into a great NFL quarterback, but he's been eratic, at best, and displays little leadership and isn't an accurate passer. [/I]

It's a very odd relationship. I don't know, maybe this is really an excercise in fan phsycology more than evaluating an NFL quarterback. Finally, let me go on the record saying that if the Redskins decide not to retain Campbell's services next season I think either Oakland or San Francisco could be a likely scenerio.[/quote]

Imo there are only a handful of situation worse then JC situation here so short of going to Oakland or Buffalo JC will do better wherever he goes.

I think people are split on JC because the jury is still out.
We don't know what JC could do behind a decent OL because he hasn't had one very often during zorns tenure maybe for 10-26 games?

Alll the QBs you mentioned had stability, good to great OL play and veteran established playcallers.

Re: Why Are We So Divided On Jason Campbell?
 

Shanahan traded up in 2006 with the hopes of getting Leinart. Cardinals took him just before the Broncos selected. Leinart was Shanahan's first choice (as I've heard it). Similarly, I've heard that Shanahan remains very intrigued by Leinart.

Re: Why Are We So Divided On Jason Campbell?
 

THe main points of discussion for the last few seasons about JC have revolved around:

1. The different offensive schemes he has had to learn has hindered his development.

Sorry, but this doesn't wash with me. Learning a system is basically learning a damn playbook and any little nuances that go with it. Sure Saunders had his supposed 700 page montrosity, but you still are supposed to learn it. Zorn's WCO playbook is rather simple compared to that.

2. Inadequate offensive line.

This season you can use this as a legit excuse to why JC isn't producing, but not any season prior to this. The injuries have been horrendous to put it mildly, the guys were old to begin with. You can blame the FO for this sorry state of affairs, but still how many years since the Hogs retired have the Skins been injury free with regards to the O line? Not many to be honest. The NFC East type of ball has kept that going(multiple injuries). From Norv on the team has had to work with a patchup O line during some points of practically every season in the post Gibbs I era.

3. "Happy Feet"

More to it meaning holding on to the ball too long before making a decision what to do with it. Can't expect the line to hold forever if all you are doing is dancing around looking for a WR to throw to. Sorry, but to me this tells me the guy can't scan the entire field yet or make quick decisions. For a guy that has been a starter 3 years this doesn't bode well. Forget the systems, this guy still doesn't have the intangible mechanics down to take us to the promised land.


THese three points could be debated til one got blue in the face, but to me the guy is just what everyone outside of Skins fandom thinks, and that he is an average QB at best. Nothing special. Gibbs considered him a possible steal when we drafted him based on him being on a 12-0 team, which had 2 Heismann candidate RBs leading the way. Another thing. Frerotte was an average QB, and come contract time Casserly had him walk, for good measure. He was average and actually asked for a raise. Say what you will about my man Gus, but he never led a team with a 4-12 record, even during the dire days of the mid 90's, but he had given us all he got and it wasn't enough. Poor Ramsey had a horrible system and a horrendous O line also, but Gibbs didn't take that in consideration when he let PR go. My point is shall we wait til this team gets all the pieces in place only to find out that JC has indeed already peaked? Face it, we are looking at a 3-5 year plan minimum in getting a solid team in place, unless the cap gets killed off permanently. Now that I have said all that, I do not want JC to be let go, but we do need to draft a QB regardless of what one thinks about him. Our depth at QB sucks rocks. Forget Pineapple Jesus or getting Chase Daniel back. I drank the Kool Aid with these guys, but it has worn off. The rest of the NFL did not deem these guys worthy of being drafted, why did we? Chase is short is a big man's game. He seemed to have the poise and nice delivery, but he would get crushed and possibly picked off a lot. Brennan is a 3rd stringer at best, only usable if your other two Qbs died in a plane crash. JC is a decent QB, better than my man Gus, but not by that much. It is time we try a new guy out and see what he can do.

Re: Why Are We So Divided On Jason Campbell?
 

^^^ I agree with this guy but hope it is not a 3-5 year project so long as it is a 1-2 year project. I want DS to bring in a solid football guy (Holmgren, Dungy, Polian, etc.) and let him make the decisions.

And heck, if the football guy thinks that JC is worth keeping/should be let go, screw it, we as fans have much less insight and should support the decision. All this second guessing is fine with VC in charge but it should be the new solid guy's decision

Re: Why Are We So Divided On Jason Campbell?
 

[quote=maroonandblack30;629530]its impossible to judge Campbell fairly with this O-line...I think he could be solid with a good line and at least 1 legit #1 WR.

I mean who is really a better option than him for NEXT year? Even if Snyder does what we think he will and drafts a QB with their first pick you still need someone to play while the new guy learns.[/quote]

Agreed, but before Samuels went down, the O line wasn't THAT bad. Was it elite? Hell no. And even during the 6-2 start last year, Campbell only had 8 TD passes. So that's the question that's dogged me. Does Campbell need everything else around him to be absolutely be perfect in order to be successful or does he have enough talent to compensate for other deficiencies (limited time in a system, lack of all-pro WRs, poor pass protection)?

He was one of the least sacked QBs in the league after 4 games, yet the Offense looked putrid. Remember the first half of the Chiefs game? But after watching Sherm Lewis call plays and the emergence of Davis, Kelly and Thomas, it reinforces my belief that Zorn did more to hinder than help Campbell. That DT, Kelly and Davis hardly played last year on one of the worst Offenses in the league is criminal on Zorn's part. They can obviously play and Zorn obviously can't coach.

All this said, I've been impressed with Campbell's play of late and the way he's handled everything. I think the Skins should re-sign him next year (because he won't get any ridiculous offers), but use their first pick to draft a QB. Maybe they find themselves in a Brees/Rivers scenario, which isn't a bad place to be. The O line can be addressed in Free Agency and with their other draft picks. They're deep at TE. Trade someone for picks. TEs don't win Super Bowls.

Re: Why Are We So Divided On Jason Campbell?
 

[quote=GusFrerotte;629928]
[B]THese three points could be debated til one got blue in the face, but to me the guy is just what everyone outside of Skins fandom thinks, [U]and that he is an average QB at best[/U]. Nothing special. Gibbs considered him a possible steal when we drafted him based on him being on a 12-0 team, which had 2 Heismann candidate RBs leading the way[/B].[/quote]

i'm very blue in the face

Re: Why Are We So Divided On Jason Campbell?
 

If JC continues to play like he played against Dallas what do you do at QB? I'm a JC supporter but I'm all for drafting a QB at least 2nd round down.

Re: Why Are We So Divided On Jason Campbell?
 

bottom line ,he is not the quarterback to take you to the next level. and he is a free agent and we should not spend any big money on him....

Re: Why Are We So Divided On Jason Campbell?
 

[quote=GusFrerotte;629928]Another thing. Frerotte was an average QB, and come contract time Casserly had him walk, for good measure. He was average and actually asked for a raise. Say what you will about my man Gus, but he never led a team with a 4-12 record, even during the dire days of the mid 90's, but he had given us all he got and it wasn't enough.[/quote]

Wanna know something funny, Gus had a 19-26-1 W/L record here. JC is 19-27 right now.

Re: Why Are We So Divided On Jason Campbell?
 

[quote=bigant;630026]bottom line ,he is not the quarterback to take you to the next level. and he is a free agent and we should not spend any big money on him....[/quote]

So who do you go sign or draft if Campbell's not the answer?

Another question, do you think if we had Drew Brees, and I know this is a big what IF, could Brees take this existing Redskin team to the next level?

Re: Why Are We So Divided On Jason Campbell?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;630029]Wanna know something funny, Gus had a 19-26-1 W/L record here. JC is 19-27 right now.[/quote]

I suppose 10 years from now, someone will be on the warpath with a screen name of JCampbell17. He will be the extolling the stats of Campbell, while saying how he never had the OL to make him great.

Re: Why Are We So Divided On Jason Campbell?
 

[quote=12thMan;630030]So who do you go sign or draft if Campbell's not the answer?

Another question, do you think if we had Drew Brees, and I know this is a big what IF, could Brees take this existing Redskin team to the next level?[/quote]

No, because there are problems with the line, WR's are average at best right & the coaching is awful. That's why ppl find it so hard to judge him way too many variables in this whole offensive equation.

Re: Why Are We So Divided On Jason Campbell?
 

[quote=FRPLG;629598]I am increasingly lost on this "leadership" stuff. What is it that he doesn't do? He isn't outwardly rah-rah or overtly animated...but what have we had to get him excited and who cares whether he is animated in conversations like Peyton Manning. Doesn't it just matter whether he is having the conversations? By all accounts he puts in proper work, his teammates like him and come foward to defend him. It sounds like he has a lot of respect in the locker room. Sounds leaderish to me.[/quote]

...like Art Monk in a QB.

Re: Why Are We So Divided On Jason Campbell?
 

I feel like we are divided because you have different types of fans. You have the as long as they are a Redskins then they just need time to develop. The if Snyder down't like them then they have to be good Redskins fan. Then the I'm a Skins fan THROUGH AND THROUGH I just can truly evaluate this team objectively. I'm one of the latter.

The Snyder hater fan couldn't stand JC when Snyder looked for Gibbs replacement and pretty much told every suitor that JC would have to be their QB. They said that Snyder couldn't shove this guy down their throats. Steve Czaban once said in reference to Jason Campbell "I've seen enough of this movie to know that it sucks"

The Snyder haters also changed their stances on JC when Dan Snyder didn't want Campbell. Once Snyder went out to replace JC with Jay Cutler or Mark Sanchez, Jason Campbell was the guy now. How could Dan Snyder possibly know what franchise QB is ? The same Dan Snyder who thought that JC would be a franchise guy that's who. They forget that Snyder once endorsed Campbell when others wouldn't. Czaban later stated referring to JC "I feel like I haven't seen thw whole movie and the kid just might be good".

I feel as though he has had 5 years to prove his self as a QB in this league. We talk about him as if he is a rookie in the preseason. He's going to get this, or he's going to get that when these are things that he should have down by now. As a Redskins fan who knows a little about football (not everything but I can take the veil off Skinsfandom when need be) I can judge the team and not just say the owner has to go. For everyone that says that he just needs an O-Line I ask them where were his insane touchdown numbers when we went 6-2 ? Sure he didn't throw picks but when des he start racking up 6's. People lose people, but you have to keep it going. Only when they threatened to get rid of JC did he become a leader. He just isn't a franchise guy IMO. He can go somewhere else but his choice not to throw the ball deep, his failure to be the deep passer that everyone tells me that he is causes me to feel this way. The fact that I can read an article where he says that he'd rather not call his own protections. The times that I listen to his interviews with Lavar when he blames everyone but himself for his failures as a QB cause me to feel like this. He can kill you underneath but no matter where he is, no matter what system he is in, no matter who his coach is, who his receivers are until he can anticipate a receiver being open, until he can thrown the ball to the spot where the receiver will be before they hit their break he will stay the same QB. Until he canhit a wide open receiver downfield he will still be the same guy.

He does have those times when I almost fall right back into the Jason can be good thing, but then I look at the game some more and it changes.

Re: Why Are We So Divided On Jason Campbell?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;630029]Wanna know something funny, Gus had a 19-26-1 W/L record here. JC is 19-27 right now.[/quote]

Interesting stat there.

I think Campbell can definitely be starter material [U]ONLY[/U] if he has a solid offensive line to play behind. He is what I would call an average starter in the NFL. He can make plays, has a great arm, and seems very intelligent. However, he doesn't possess that "it" factor like I've seen from someone like Rodgers, Brees, or Rivers. And Rodgers is actually a great example of an elite QB who despite being behind a poor offensive line can make plays for you and win ball games.