Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=illdefined]we all saw what happened on the field last season. and we've all seen how little preseason success applies to the regular season.[/QUOTE]

illdefined when are you going to stop bringing up last season?

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=LadyT]And for how long are we supposed to give Coach a "bye" based on those 3 rings?

I don't for one minute think that Gibbs made this choice based on anything close to personal or self-serving reasons. I believe he is not that type of man or coach. However, I do think he is dead wrong with what he's done and this team will pay the price for his decision this season.[/QUOTE]

The reason Gibbs will be successful is because now he has a healthier Brunell who I think will not turn the ball over like last year. Efficiency has been the main commandment of Gibbs that Ramsey has consistently broken. Interceptions and fumbles have plagued Ramsey and overshadowed anything he did. That is the reason he is being replaced. Secondly, I think the addition of Jansen with two broken thumbs and Dockery stepping without a lot of penalties is a better front line for any decent QB. Ramsey was in every training camp this year so he should understand and be on the same page as Gibbs. I am very observant as a fan and what I have noticed about Ramsey from preseason until last week, is that when Brunell goes onto to the field and returns to the sidelines, Ramsey is right behind him. He acts as though he a Brunell are buddy buddy. Brunell is fighting for his job. There is no love lost. This guy lacks confidence and it shows with his reaction to being benched.

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=Redskins_P]illdefined when are you going to stop bringing up last season?[/QUOTE]

think it applies more than the 1980s don't you?

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=Redskins_P]illdefined when are you going to stop bringing up last season?[/QUOTE]

Preseason for Ramsey looked exactly like the regular season. If Ramsey couldn't be efficient with "vanilla playcalling" why should anybody be surprised he was benched in week one?

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=illdefined]think it applies more than the 1980s don't you?[/QUOTE]


Jeez you guys are quick to jump on and off the bandwagon, aren't you?

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=Redskins_P]Jeez you guys are quick to jump on and off the bandwagon, aren't you?[/QUOTE]

you guys are the one who wants to pretend last year never happened!

so you were on the Brunell bandwagon last year too?

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=RedskinRat]Possibly because you are not privvy to the information and knowledge that Coach Gibbs and staff have.[/QUOTE]

So why didn't all of that "information and knowledge" translate to even a semi-respectable record last year?

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=illdefined]you guys are the one who wants to pretend last year never happened!

so you were on the Brunell bandwagon last year too?[/QUOTE]


illdefined, come on how are we going to just forget about last season? Of course, I'm not. All I'm trying to say is that this is no time to just throw the season away because Brunell is our QB now. Last season Brunell looked bad all throughout the preseason (like Ramsey did this year) and of course I wanted Ramsey in. But Ramsey looked horrible in all 4 preseason games. Brunell looked more healthy, and didn't make as many mistakes as Ramsey did. I think Gibbs sees that this team, this year, has a good chance of being at least a wildcard contender if we can eliminate the turnovers. We have a great running back, great o-line, and a potential top 5 defense. All we need is a QB who can manage the game without MISTAKES!

At least wait until we see Brunell play a whole game before we start judging him. I know, I know last year it was painful to watch him. But he was injured.

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=LadyT]So why didn't all of that "information and knowledge" translate to even a semi-respectable record last year?[/QUOTE]

You're being difficult, right. Ok then, here we go.

You've been in your job for a while, you know the people you work with and the actual tasks that you perform. When you change companies, as sometimes happens, you have a different set of co-workers and a simialr but differing set of tasks. Would you go in and perform at the same level immediately or would it take you a while to get there?

Big corporations have an expected learning curve even for experienced people.

Last year was like that.

How many games have we lost so far this year? None.

How many of your fellow coven members have as many years 'On the broom' as you?

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=RedskinRat]You're being difficult, right. Ok then, here we go.

You've been in your job for a while, you know the people you work with and the actual tasks that you perform. When you change companies, as sometimes happens, you have a different set of co-workers and a simialr but differing set of tasks. Would you go in and perform at the same level immediately or would it take you a while to get there?

Big corporations have an expected learning curve even for experienced people.

Last year was like that.

How many games have we lost so far this year? None.

How many of your fellow coven members have as many years 'On the broom' as you?[/QUOTE]

Excuse me - "Coven members on the broom?" And you're one of the forums moderators? An apology is in order, but I'm sure it won't be forthcoming.

It's a sign of something (I have too much class to be more specific) when someone has to stoop to "not so veiled" personal attacks in order to make their point.

I always wondered why there are so few female posters to this forum. Now, I'm beginning to understand why.

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=LadyT]Excuse me - "Coven members on the broom?" And you're one of the forums moderators? An apology is in order, but I'm sure it won't be forthcoming.

It's a sign of something (I have too much class to be more specific) when someone has to stoop to "not so veiled" personal attacks in order to make their point.

I always wondered why there are so few female posters to this forum. Now, I'm beginning to understand why.[/QUOTE]

Wow, are you easily upset?

Merely a joke, as you were being obtuse I was trying for levity. Ah well.

Dry your eyes, I apologize wholeheartely and really sincerely for suggesting anyone would want you in their coven.

If you can't take a little jibe maybe you could find a crochet forum, I'm sure their chat will be far less hostile.


Oh, and regarding female posters in sports forums, my girlfriend tells me she has much better ways of spending her time.

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[b][size=3]Guys and gals, let's all take a deep breath and relax.[/size][/b]
[b][size=3][/size][/b]
[size=3][/size]
[b][size=3]Step away from the computer for a moment, do some work, stare out your window, have a slice of your favorite pie, etc.[/size][/b]
[b][size=3][/size][/b]
[size=3][/size]
[b][size=3]Things are starting to get ugly and it won't be tolerated.[/size][/b]
[b][size=3][/size][/b]
[size=3][/size]
[b][size=3]Be warned.[/size][/b]

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=SUNRA]The reason Gibbs will be successful is because now he has a healthier Brunell who I think will not turn the ball over like last year. Efficiency has been the main commandment of Gibbs that Ramsey has consistently broken. Interceptions and fumbles have plagued Ramsey and overshadowed anything he did. That is the reason he is being replaced. Secondly, I think the addition of Jansen with two broken thumbs and Dockery stepping without a lot of penalties is a better front line for any decent QB. Ramsey was in every training camp this year so he should understand and be on the same page as Gibbs. I am very observant as a fan and what I have noticed about Ramsey from preseason until last week, is that when Brunell goes onto to the field and returns to the sidelines, Ramsey is right behind him. He acts as though he a Brunell are buddy buddy. Brunell is fighting for his job. There is no love lost. This guy lacks confidence and it shows with his reaction to being benched.[/QUOTE]

Amen! For those of you that remember Mark Rypien. He was Superbowl MVP in 1992. In that season, he basically rose out of obscurity to fame. I truly never saw ANYBODY throw a better long ball. He literally bombed their opponents all year. True, they had a tested group of recievers. Not necessarily more talented, but tested. The following year he fell back in to obscurity, and later was waived. Gibbs realized he could not get a Joe Montana, so he was smart enough to back door the problem. He (and Bugel) created an incredible O-line that allowed 9 sacks (I think) all year. Any "decent" non-superstar QB should thrive in that environment. Rypien was incredible that year, and went back to suck head the next. The only difference was the protection. I think that is Coach's plan! No Joe's available.......................Brunell is at the back door (I Hope)

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=Redskins_P]illdefined, come on how are we going to just forget about last season? Of course, I'm not. All I'm trying to say is that this is no time to just throw the season away because Brunell is our QB now. Last season Brunell looked bad all throughout the preseason (like Ramsey did this year) and of course I wanted Ramsey in. But Ramsey looked horrible in all 4 preseason games. Brunell looked more healthy, and didn't make as many mistakes as Ramsey did. I think Gibbs sees that this team, this year, has a good chance of being at least a wildcard contender if we can eliminate the turnovers. We have a great running back, great o-line, and a potential top 5 defense. All we need is a QB who can manage the game without MISTAKES!

At least wait until we see Brunell play a whole game before we start judging him. I know, I know last year it was painful to watch him. But he was injured.[/QUOTE]

i'll put an entire regular season ahead of a several preseason games any day. as Skins fans we should know how meaningless they are, Brunell never even played with starters for heaven's sake. those are very limited circumstances, and just aren't a measure of the regular season. period.

if Brunell wasn't healthy last season than i question why he kept playing. Ramsey went in, and started winning games in the same offense. if Brunell is healthier and plays better next week, it won't prove to me that Ramsey couldn't have done the same thing becuase i think the OFFENSE is better. we did *not* get a fair chance to see Ramsey behind it. call me crazy for not believing a 35 yr old QB will get much better than the year before. even if he does, he's not the future, so why bank the franchise on him? he's great as a backup, but 3 drives WASN'T ENOUGH

Re: Brunell Starting
 

Rat, that's out of line. we're talking about football.

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=illdefined]Rat, that's out of line. we're talking about football.[/QUOTE]

Your opinion doesn't matter to me.

I've said far worse to people on here and had worse said to me. She at least could have answered with a funny reply or a PM to say "I'm offended". If Lady T is going to go public and play the injured party I'll keep right on her.

It's a Sports Forum, not a Church picnic.

Re: Brunell Starting
 

you're right, it's a sports forum. witches aren't a topic. save that for the uh, church forum

Re: Brunell Starting
 

So is the Aministrator gonna step in here, or do only the peons have to abide by the rules?

Re: Brunell Starting
 

Damn you, I'd started a pyre and everything.......:mad:


Ok, I've calmed down, honestly. I'm just used to more 'heated' banter with less personal injury.

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=illdefined]i'll put an entire regular season ahead of a several preseason games any day. as Skins fans we should know how meaningless they are, Brunell never even played with starters for heaven's sake. those are very limited circumstances, and just aren't a measure of the regular season. period.

if Brunell wasn't healthy last season than i question why he kept playing. Ramsey went in, and started winning games in the same offense. if Brunell is healthier and plays better next week, it won't prove to me that Ramsey couldn't have done the same thing becuase i think the OFFENSE is better. we did *not* get a fair chance to see Ramsey behind it. call me crazy for not believing a 35 yr old QB will get much better than the year before. even if he does, he's not the future, so why bank the franchise on him? he's great as a backup, but 3 drives WASN'T ENOUGH[/QUOTE]

As SUNRA said somewhere else (can't remember where) if Ramsey with all our new weapons at his disposal (Portis, Moss, Patten, Cooley) could not master the offense this summer when it was at its most basic then how can we entrust him with this offense when it's the regular season and we add features to the offense. And the defenses become less vanilla as well.

I've been on the Brunell Bandwagon since last season. Not because I thought he should be the starter but because I thought he still could bring something to the table, and he could be called upon when needed. Especially if Ramsey couldn't show he could be our starter yet. I still don't feel that Ramsey has shown that.

In retrospect, I think that a.) Gibbs should have probably never declared Ramsey the starter going into training camp, and b.) Brunell should have probably started a game in the preseason with the first team offense

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=Hog1]Amen! For those of you that remember Mark Rypien. He was Superbowl MVP in 1992. In that season, he basically rose out of obscurity to fame. I truly never saw ANYBODY throw a better long ball. He literally bombed their opponents all year. True, they had a tested group of recievers. Not necessarily more talented, but tested. The following year he fell back in to obscurity, and later was waived. Gibbs realized he could not get a Joe Montana, so he was smart enough to back door the problem. He (and Bugel) created an incredible O-line that allowed 9 sacks (I think) all year. Any "decent" non-superstar QB should thrive in that environment. Rypien was incredible that year, and went back to suck head the next. The only difference was the protection. I think that is Coach's plan! No Joe's available.......................Brunell is at the back door (I Hope)[/QUOTE]

brunell releases fast and checks down too quickly, he's been more of the prototype QB (when in his prime) of those guys that operate fine without a good line...

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]As SUNRA said somewhere else (can't remember where) if Ramsey with all our new weapons at his disposal (Portis, Moss, Patten, Cooley) could not master the offense this summer when it was at its most basic then how can we entrust him with this offense when it's the regular season and we add features to the offense. And the defenses become less vanilla as well.

I've been on the Brunell Bandwagon since last season. Not because I thought he should be the starter but because I thought he still could bring something to the table, and he could be called upon when needed. Especially if Ramsey couldn't show he could be our starter yet. I still don't feel that Ramsey has shown that.

In retrospect, I think that a.) Gibbs should have probably never declared Ramsey the starter going into training camp, and b.) Brunell should have probably started a game in the preseason with the first team offense[/QUOTE]

thats more like it. well how often was Portis or Cooley even in the preseason line up? the one game Cooley was in there, i remember a certain Ramsey/Cooley TD..either way, its stands that preseason is no substitute for regular season, as Skins fans, we should know that better than anybody. and 3 possessions was not enough to dismiss all of Ramsey's post-Brunell success last season. This is obviously another faith/gut call from Gibbs, but so was getting Brunell to begin with.

it took Vermeil a while to get his instincts back after his comeback, and even if Brunell magically got younger instead of older, what happens next year? start over yet again? it's hard to see the progress. must be even harder for the team itself.

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=RedskinRat]Possibly because you are not privvy to the information and knowledge that Coach Gibbs and staff have.[/QUOTE]


Exactly! From what I have heard the fly on the wall is saying Brunell secretly pulled Gibbs aside and told him Ramsey stinks and to play him.

Brunell is a jedi you know.

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=offiss]Exactly! From what I have heard the fly on the wall is saying Brunell secretly pulled Gibbs aside and told him Ramsey stinks and to play him.

Brunell is a jedi you know.[/QUOTE]

So you're saying you speak 'Fly'?

Of all the weeks we don't need a QB controversy or division within the ranks of blindly obedient fans this was the one.

Re: Brunell Starting
 

For all of us Ramsey bandwagon guys out here, our reality was shattered yesterday when Brunell was named the starter and we need to all come to the same conclusion... Brunell will Captain the ship, until the young Lieutenant Jason Campbell is ready to play. Gibbs said it yesterday when he stated that he was looking for a QB to emerge or take over the team or be a leader or whatever. I hate the decision as much as the next Ramsey fan, but honestly, I think Brunell may give the Skins the best chance to win next Monday night. The Skins can not have 3 or 4 turnovers and beat the Cowboys, and as many great plays as Ramsey may give us, he will undoubtabily throw a pick or fumble at some point in the game. If we play conservatively we have a better chance to win.

Re: Brunell Starting
 

For all of us Ramsey bandwagon guys out here, our reality was shattered yesterday when Brunell was named the starter and we need to all come to the same conclusion... Brunell will Captain the ship, until the young Lieutenant Jason Campbell is ready to play. Gibbs said it yesterday when he stated that he was looking for a QB to emerge or take over the team or be a leader or whatever. I hate the decision as much as the next Ramsey fan, but honestly, I think Brunell may give the Skins the best chance to win next Monday night. The Skins can not have 3 or 4 turnovers and beat the Cowboys, and as many great plays as Ramsey may give us, he will undoubtabily throw a pick or fumble at some point in the game. If we play conservatively we have a better chance to win.

Re: Brunell Starting
 

Scowan, I really wanted Ramsey to succeed. I wanted him in last season and was exasperated when Coach Gibbs stuck with Brunell. I believe all of us are a little shaken by the latest turn of events but at some point you have to trust the person who makes the final decision.

I want a winning team, I'd like a star QB. I think that Campbell is the future but I don't want him thrown into the cauldron of MNF against the Cow-Whores.

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=illdefined]thats more like it. well how often was Portis or Cooley even in the preseason line up? the one game Cooley was in there, i remember a certain Ramsey/Cooley TD..either way, its stands that preseason is no substitute for regular season, as Skins fans, we should know that better than anybody. and 3 possessions was not enough to dismiss all of Ramsey's post-Brunell success last season. This is obviously another faith/gut call from Gibbs, but so was getting Brunell to begin with.

it took Vermeil a while to get his instincts back after his comeback, and even if Brunell magically got younger instead of older, what happens next year? start over yet again? it's hard to see the progress. must be even harder for the team itself.[/QUOTE]


As any coach will tell you, you can't simulate preseason game speed in practice, you cant simulate regular season game speed in the preseason, and you can't simulate postseason speed in the regular season.

Personally I think Gibbs is keeping his word with his QB decisions, when he convinced Brunell to come here he promised him the starters job along with a second rd pick and 42 mil, figuring he would beat out Ramsey, but that didn't happen, Ramsey has clearly outplayed Brunell when the games count.

I keep hearing the point being brought up about last year is over and Brunell has outplayed Ramsey so far this year, and in doing so deserves to start, as if last season never happend. My question to all that hold that opinion is this, what has Gibbs done to warrent the head coaching job of this team? That is if we are not going to include the past, a lowsey preseason and a 9-7 victory over a lowsey Bear team with a rookie QB in his first game.

Forget about his personel decisions which we are starting to see that Portis is anything but a Gibbs type back 50 mil., Brunell is a third string backup at best 42 mil, and we gave up next year's draft for a QB that wont be ready for 2 years, yes thats right the same amount of time it took RYPIEN to mature whom we chose in the 4th rd I do believe, Yes a rookie who doesn't have what it takes when the coach has basically admitted neither QB has done anything to take hold of the QB job, yet we see plenty of rookies who are starting and who have started over the last several years, yet our rookie who we gave up the farm to get can't sniff the field!

Re: Brunell Starting
 

i have one question, i'm not getting into the middle of this or anything, but here goes.

For all you Ramsey lovers out there, please answer this:

If, and if, we beat Dallas this Monday Night what will you think about the situation between Ramsey and Brunell? Will you still think Ramsey got shafted, or will you say Brunell is the better option?

Re: Brunell Starting
 

No need to rehash it all.......but I'll just go on the record saying I'm really PISSED. Joe Gibbs knows more about football than I could ever learn in 5 lifetimes, but I just don't understand this move. If our offense starts looking like last year with 2 yard dinks and dunks all over the place, it's going to be a very hard season for me to watch. This just sucks.

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=PSUSkinsFan21]Joe Gibbs knows more about football than I could ever learn in 5 lifetimes, but[/QUOTE]

There shouldn't be a but.

You summed it up perfectly, thanks.

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=mooby]i have one question, i'm not getting into the middle of this or anything, but here goes.

For all you Ramsey lovers out there, please answer this:

If, and if, we beat Dallas this Monday Night what will you think about the situation between Ramsey and Brunell? Will you still think Ramsey got shafted, or will you say Brunell is the better option?[/QUOTE]


Absolutly! Just because we beat Dallas with Brunell doesn't mean we wouldn't have with Ramsey, or more convincingly with Ramsey as well, the problem with that question is this, it's predicated on Brunell actually beating Dallas.

So I will ask this question for all the Brunell/ Gibbs lovers out there, if Dallas beats us monday night will you say Ramsey got the short end of the stick on this one? And will further it 1 more, if Brunell turns the ball over in the first quarter will you call for an immediate QB change?

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=mooby]i have one question, i'm not getting into the middle of this or anything, but here goes.

For all you Ramsey lovers out there, please answer this:

If, and if, we beat Dallas this Monday Night what will you think about the situation between Ramsey and Brunell? Will you still think Ramsey got shafted, or will you say Brunell is the better option?[/QUOTE]

Well, first of all that's a big if. Secondly, no Redskin fan in their right mind would be unhappy under any circumstances with a win over Dallas.

Basically, it boils down to this. The people that want Brunell to start aren't really endorsing Brunell as much as they aren't that confident in Ramsey's ability to be the team's undisputed starting QB and get tangible results.
I think that's one side of it.

The people that want Ramsey, (not putting words in anyone's mouth, just the general feeling I've gotten from reading and posting myself) feel it's more about what "Gibbs said he would do", and giving Patrick the same shot as he gave Brunell. Ramsey supporters feel that it's more of a loyalty issue at stake here.

Both sides have their merits, but at the end of the day we really aren't Ramsey or Brunell fans, we really Redskins fans!

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=mooby]i have one question, i'm not getting into the middle of this or anything, but here goes.

For all you Ramsey lovers out there, please answer this:

If, and if, we beat Dallas this Monday Night what will you think about the situation between Ramsey and Brunell? Will you still think Ramsey got shafted, or will you say Brunell is the better option?[/QUOTE]

Brunell winning that game with an improved offense will *not* prove to me that Ramsey couldn't do the same. handicapped preseason and the first 19 minutes of the season just wasn't enough.

Re: Brunell Starting
 

Please explain 'handicapped preseason'?

Wasn't Ramsey working with the Starters?

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=RedskinRat]Please explain 'handicapped preseason'?

Wasn't Ramsey working with the Starters?[/QUOTE]

Portis barely played the entire preseason. Cooley wasn't in at all for a couple games. (the one he was in he got a Ramsey TD though). and he certainly wasn't playing with the full playbook. same with the opponent's defense, everyone was holding back and trying things out, it's NO MEASURE compared the regular season Ramsey *did* play and outscored Brunell in.

Re: Brunell Starting
 

I'm also including the team prep work. Ramsey was training and playing with the firts stringers all training camp and pre-season.

There has to be more to Ramsey's percieved failure than what the fans are seeing.

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=RedskinRat]I'm also including the team prep work. Ramsey was training and playing with the firts stringers all training camp and pre-season.

There has to be more to Ramsey's percieved failure than what the fans are seeing.[/QUOTE]

playing in shorts against guys who really don't want to hurt you still can't compare to the regular season that *did* happen. happened just last year in fact.

Re: Brunell Starting
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]There shouldn't be a but.

You summed it up perfectly, thanks.[/QUOTE]

Hey, I hope you're right. And I've been (and will continue to be) a huge Gibbs supporter on this site. I'm just puzzled by this. I actually thought Ramsey started looking pretty good up until the clothesline hit???? Maybe I just had on rose-colored glasses, but I felt like we'd be fine with Ramsey at the helm this year. Brunell scares the heck out of me based on what I saw last year........hopefully he's A LOT better this year.

Re: Brunell Starting
 

Brunell is one of the most accurate passers in NFL history he was the main reason Jacksonville was any good for years. From what I saw in preseason he is moving better and delivering good balls. This leads me to believe that his injury was affecting him. He might not be as mobile as he once was but he is smarter and will not throw the picks Ramsey seems prone too. Gibbs got him for a reason he believes he is best fit for offense unfortunatly with his injury and not having all the Gibbs guys in there yet was tough. Had alot of Spurrier guys leave and Gibbs brought in his guys this offseason. So I say give the man who has brought us three super bowls run the team until proved otherwise I trust he knows what he is doing.