Bucs Postgame
 

Yeah like I said, it wasn’t rigged but they definitely favored TB with Bs calls. That OPI was as bad as it gets and nobody even said anything about it. When it comes to the playoffs , the league wants the big names to advance, it happens every year. They would be lying if they said “we want Washington in round 2” come on we know better

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[quote=FrenchSkin;1273504]One of the obvious non called holds by Tampa's OL:

[IMG]https://media4.giphy.com/media/SpDgEUORc2LcilnTWR/giphy.gif[/IMG]


But this phantom hold gets us a flag on 3rd and 7, we punt 2 plays later, massive BS, huge impact on the game:

[IMG]https://media1.giphy.com/media/kVkot4WYbnr0h6qsnx/giphy.gif[/IMG]

... and the Bucs get 11 free yards, that wasn't a touchback, ball is dead when Apke controls it at the 9.

[IMG]https://media3.giphy.com/media/EbqhoU4LWXdsl92DAa/giphy.gif[/IMG]

Following drive this massive OPI on Evans doesn't get flag... outrageous:

[IMG]https://media0.giphy.com/media/Q6fiYaLFrBEZCr4H9i/giphy.gif[/IMG][/quote]


The first gif could've been a holding call or hands to the face.

I was also scratching my head on Scherff's holding call. I was like "WTH?!"

I immediately saw Evans push off and said to a guy sitting next to me (also a WFT fan, as I was at a bar), "That's an offensive PI." Unfortunately, for us, no flags were thrown.

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[quote=FrenchSkin;1273479]
-Followed by an absolute bullshit touchback! Play is dead when Apke controls the ball ![/quote]

Nope, ball is dead if it is downed at that point. If he carries it into the endzone, deliberately or not, it's a TB. Rule is you cannot advance a muff (failure to secure the ball), only a fumble. Had Apke known the rules, he's have been smart and just stopped inside the 5.

Actually happened to me in a game over here. PR didn't catch it clean and I caught and fell on the ball. Teammates all saying should have gone for the EZ and only the coaches realised I'd been smart enough not to try to advance it. I'd understand amateurs like us not knowing the rules, but a pro with years of college behind him...

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

It's hard to blame the refs when your defense gives up over 500 yards. Yeah there were some questionable calls/non-calls, it happens every game, but that is not why they lost.

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[QUOTE=mooby;1273505]Preach, French. I don't like blaming the refs but they were pretty terrible last night. I gotta wonder how the NFL grades them after games or if they get reprimanded for missing calls because it was terrible yesterday.[/QUOTE]Yeah being a ref myself I'm not one to blame them and forget my team's mistake (in this game: our DL not delivering enough, secondary making mistakes, some drops by our wr, bad play call by Turner) but those were massive bad calls. And I didn't include the bogus face mask on Fuller early on.

Actually it makes me feel even better about this game: even with our mistakes, and those massive bad calls against us we had a chance to take the GOAT out of the playoffs!

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Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[QUOTE=AnonEmouse;1273509]Nope, ball is dead if it is downed at that point. If he carries it into the endzone, deliberately or not, it's a TB. Rule is you cannot advance a muff (failure to secure the ball), only a fumble. Had Apke known the rules, he's have been smart and just stopped inside the 5.



Actually happened to me in a game over here. PR didn't catch it clean and I caught and fell on the ball. Teammates all saying should have gone for the EZ and only the coaches realised I'd been smart enough not to try to advance it. I'd understand amateurs like us not knowing the rules, but a pro with years of college behind him...[/QUOTE]Well NFL rules might differ on this but with NCAA/IFAF rules the ball is dead when controlled by a member of the kicking team.

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Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[QUOTE=PorkSkins;1273507]The first gif could've been a holding call or hands to the face.



I was also scratching my head on Scherff's holding call. I was like "WTH?!"



I immediately saw Evans push off and said to a guy sitting next to me (also a WFT fan, as I was at a bar), "That's an offensive PI." Unfortunately, for us, no flags were thrown.[/QUOTE]Yeah hands to the face on Payne, 10yards any way.

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Re: Bucs Postgame
 

Team is trending up. That is what is important. They certainly are not pushovers. Especially in the second half. I really think next year is actually the year for once.

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[QUOTE=Chief X_Phackter;1273510]It's hard to blame the refs when your defense gives up over 500 yards. Yeah there were some questionable calls/non-calls, it happens every game, but that is not why they lost.[/QUOTE]Agreed. Just makes me feel even better that we stood a chance till the very end despite our own mistakes and the refs' bad calls. And those were really massive and obvious IMO.

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Re: Bucs Postgame
 

deleted

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^ they fucked us. On numerous occasions. The refs let TB do w.ever they wanted out there cuz fuck us right who cares lets just keep blowing Tom brady

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[QUOTE=punch it in;1273516]Team is trending up. That is what is important. They certainly are not pushovers. Especially in the second half. I really think next year is actually the year for once.[/QUOTE]


11 straight weeks of out scoring the opponents in the 2nd half. That’s HUGE

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[QUOTE=Meks;1273519]^ they fucked us. On numerous occasions. The refs let TB do w.ever they wanted out there cuz fuck us right who cares lets just keep blowing Tom brady[/QUOTE]


It’s the Jordan and Lebron effect unfortunately. The Great ones will always get the calls

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

The fight they showed to close out the season inspired me to buy my 1st and probably only piece of WFT gear today (unless this becomes the permanent name). Just need to add a few horses.

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

The Evans play was within 5 yards. Nothing wrong w/ what he did.

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[quote=punch it in;1273498]My guess is he got an opportunity to start in Carolina and threw three interceptions. He choked. Understandable being an undrafted guy outta Old Dominion. Threw 55 passes though and hurt his elbow. Tough break. But he was never going to get the second chance ( or third fourth fifth etc) that say a Dwayne Haskins would. But he got that second chance miraculously and showed us he has huge potential.[/quote]

So true. Draft position always determines how much rope you have in the NFL.

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1273526]The Evans play was within 5 yards. Nothing wrong w/ what he did.[/quote]

The 5 yards from LoS rule is for defense only, offense is not allowed to block past the LoS on a passing play.

Bucs Postgame
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan69;1273526]The Evans play was within 5 yards. Nothing wrong w/ what he did.[/QUOTE]


Believe it was Brate and if so yeah they let it slide but it was obvious as day he leveled Fuller

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[quote=FrenchSkin;1273514]Well NFL rules might differ on this but with NCAA/IFAF rules the ball is dead when controlled by a member of the kicking team.

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They do indeed; if the ball is carried into or rolls into the end zone after being touched by the punting team it's a TB. Had he stopped anywhere before crossing the line it would have been Tampa Bay ball on the 5. His ignorance cost 15 yards.

"In the NFL, a punted ball does not have to enter the end zone for a touchback to occur, though this is often the case. [B]A player on the punting team who attempts to down the ball before it crosses the plane of the goal line must keep both feet outside the goal line.[/B]"

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[quote=AnonEmouse;1273530]They do indeed; if the ball is carried into or rolls into the end zone after being touched by the punting team it's a TB. Had he stopped anywhere before crossing the line it would have been Tampa Bay ball on the 5. His ignorance cost 15 yards.

"In the NFL, a punted ball does not have to enter the end zone for a touchback to occur, though this is often the case. [B]A player on the punting team who attempts to down the ball before it crosses the plane of the goal line must keep both feet outside the goal line.[/B]"[/quote]

No. This rule talks about a player [I][B][U]attempting[/U][/B][/I] to down the ball near the goal line. Apke did down the ball 9 yard from the goal line, and the ball was dead at that point, what happened after that didn't matter. Touching the ball and downing it are 2 different things.

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[quote=FrenchSkin;1273531]No. This rule talks about a player [I][B][U]attempting[/U][/B][/I] to down the ball near the goal line. Apke did down the ball 9 yard from the goal line, and the ball was dead at that point, what happened after that didn't matter. Touching the ball and downing it are 2 different things.[/quote]

To to mention that it did hit the TB player and it should have been our ball.

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[quote=AnonEmouse;1273530]They do indeed; if the ball is carried into or rolls into the end zone after being touched by the punting team it's a TB. Had he stopped anywhere before crossing the line it would have been Tampa Bay ball on the 5. His ignorance cost 15 yards.

"In the NFL, a punted ball does not have to enter the end zone for a touchback to occur, though this is often the case. [B]A player on the punting team who attempts to down the ball before it crosses the plane of the goal line must keep both feet outside the goal line.[/B]"[/quote]

There you go, took me some time because NFL and NCAA/IFAF rule books are structured differently, but the play is over when the ball is recovered by a member of the kicking team:

"The game clock operator shall [B]stop the game clock[/B] (timeout) upon a signal by any official or upon the operator’s own positive knowledge:

b) when the [B]kicking team recovers a scrimmage kick beyond the line of scrimmage[/B];"

And then:

"When the [B][U]kickers catch or recover a kick beyond the line of scrimmage, the ball is dead at the spot of recovery[/U][/B], even if a member of the receiving team has first touched the ball."

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

Not an excuse, by the way, but simply reality. Covid really screwed up things for society and this season.

Could you imagine 75K or more fans at last night's game.... It would've given our team (and, particularly, the defense) a huge boost. It can also at times help sway a call or two in your favor.

It may have been the boost in a close game like last night to give us a win.

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[quote=PorkSkins;1273536]Not an excuse, by the way, but simply reality. Covid really screwed up things for society and this season.

Could you imagine 75K or more fans at last night's game.... It would've given our team (and, particularly, the defense) a huge boost. It can also at times help sway a call or two in your favor.

It may have been the boost in a close game like last night to give us a win.[/quote]

Well the good thing is, RR and this team have given the fans a reason to be excited, and a reason to buy tickets and attend home games to cheer them on. Should be an exciting year next year if they are able to fill some holes, most importantly the QB position.

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

The TB o-line played well. I do not have the data nor care to watch film and verify but I felt JDR rushed only four for much of the game. That is not going to get it done against that o-line and the GOAT. He is too good at stepping into the pocket and buying time. Heinicke played well but I still would prefer to get something in FA or trade. Wish our run game could have been existent. Overall thought the team played well.

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

Not the worst ending to the CRAZIEST season ever in Skins history. For a while I thought they guys might just do it. The cornerstone has been laid.

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[quote=FrenchSkin;1273535]There you go, took me some time because NFL and NCAA/IFAF rule books are structured differently, but the play is over when the ball is recovered by a member of the kicking team:

"The game clock operator shall [B]stop the game clock[/B] (timeout) upon a signal by any official or upon the operator’s own positive knowledge:

b) when the [B]kicking team recovers a scrimmage kick beyond the line of scrimmage[/B];"

And then:

"When the [B][U]kickers catch or recover a kick beyond the line of scrimmage, the ball is dead at the spot of recovery[/U][/B], even if a member of the receiving team has first touched the ball."[/quote]

No it's not, [B]as Apke carried it into the endzone[/B]:

The rulebook also gives a breakdown of when touchbacks can be ruled as seen below. These scenarios can only occur if the ball was sent over the goal line by the offensive or kicking team. A touchback occurs when:

The ball is dead in the opponent’s possession in its end zone
The ball is out of bounds behind the goal line
A kick has not been touched by the receiving team and the ball:
Touches the ground on or behind the receivers goal line
Touches a player on the kicking team who is touching the ball on or behind the receiver’s goal line
Touches a player on the kicking team who has touched the ground on or behind the receiver’s goal line and has not re-established himself in play
Any legal or illegal kick, other than one which scores a field goal, touches the receiver’s goal posts
If the kicking team interferes with the receiver’s ability to catch the ball or call fair catch while they are in their end zone
[B]If a player of the kicking team illegally catches or recovers a scrimmage kick in the field of play, and carries the ball across the goal line, or touches the goal line with any part of his body while in possession of the ball[/B]
A touchback is called if any of these scenarios occur. If a team is award a touchback off a kickoff, that team starts with the ball on their 25-yard line. If a touchback occurs not on a kickoff, then the team starts with the ball on their 20-yard line.


It doesn't matter if it touched the returner or not, he should know NOT to advance the ball, especially into the endzone.

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

Heinecken is a bad ass, he played the 4th quarter with a separated AC joint from his endzone dive TD.. Haskins would have sat over a hang nail.

[url]https://www.yahoo.com/sports/taylor-heinicke-played-final-quarter-053207856.html[/url]

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;1273570]Heinecken is a bad ass, he played the 4th quarter with a separated AC joint from his endzone dive TD.. Haskins would have sat over a hang nail.

[url]https://www.yahoo.com/sports/taylor-heinicke-played-final-quarter-053207856.html[/url][/quote]

Haskins would have never made the play Heinicke did. He would have thrown an INT into a delayed drop coverage fake blitz by a linebacker.

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[quote=AnonEmouse;1273567]No it's not, [B]as Apke carried it into the endzone[/B]:

The rulebook also gives a breakdown of when touchbacks can be ruled as seen below. These scenarios can only occur if the ball was sent over the goal line by the offensive or kicking team. A touchback occurs when:

The ball is dead in the opponent’s possession in its end zone
The ball is out of bounds behind the goal line
A kick has not been touched by the receiving team and the ball:
Touches the ground on or behind the receivers goal line
Touches a player on the kicking team who is touching the ball on or behind the receiver’s goal line
Touches a player on the kicking team who has touched the ground on or behind the receiver’s goal line and has not re-established himself in play
Any legal or illegal kick, other than one which scores a field goal, touches the receiver’s goal posts
If the kicking team interferes with the receiver’s ability to catch the ball or call fair catch while they are in their end zone
[B]If a player of the kicking team illegally catches or recovers a scrimmage kick in the field of play, and carries the ball across the goal line, or touches the goal line with any part of his body while in possession of the ball[/B]
A touchback is called if any of these scenarios occur. If a team is award a touchback off a kickoff, that team starts with the ball on their 25-yard line. If a touchback occurs not on a kickoff, then the team starts with the ball on their 20-yard line.


It doesn't matter if it touched the returner or not, he should know NOT to advance the ball, especially into the endzone.[/quote]

Agree on the last part. Doesn't matter if the ball touches the returner or not, you can't advance the ball either way... But I really don't understand the rule you posted: how can something that happened after the ball is dead impact the play ?

To me, and I remember NBC's rules analyst said so too, the rule you posted is meant to apply to a player of the kicking team trying to down the ball just outside the endzone, if he touches the goal line with his feet just when or right after he catches the ball, then it's a touchback. But when Apke catches the ball at the 9 by rule the ball is dead, anything that happened after that shouldn't count.

Found the rule your example refers to, I don't understand it to be written to apply to this situation at all:

"If a player of the kicking team illegally catches or recovers a scrimmage kick, other than a field-goal attempt from beyond the 20-yard line, and [I][U]touches the goal line with any part of his body while in possession of the ball, [B]the ball is dead[/B], and the result of the play is a touchback[/U][/I]."

It clearly describes a bang bang situation when the ball is caught and at the same time/right after a body part of the player crosses the goal line... otherwise they wouldn't specify "the ball is dead", cuz in Apke's situation the ball was already dead way before he crossed the goal line.

Good example of a badly written rule IMO.

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[quote=MissouriSkin;1273532]To to mention that it did hit the TB player and it should have been our ball.[/quote]

Exactly!!!

The ball hit his fanny pack, or whatever that little bag on his back is. Replay clearly showed it. It is a part of his uniform and the refs blew it. WFT ball as soon as we controlled it. We can't advance it, as it is considered a muff. Huge game-changing play blown by the WWE officials.

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[quote=Number44;1273607]Exactly!!!

The ball hit his fanny pack, or whatever that little bag on his back is. [B]Replay clearly showed it.[/B] It is a part of his uniform and the refs blew it. WFT ball as soon as we controlled it. We can't advance it, as it is considered a muff. Huge game-changing play blown by the WWE officials.[/quote]

Nah I watched it 20 times and I really don't think it did.

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[QUOTE=FrenchSkin;1273575]But when Apke catches the ball at the 9 by rule the ball is dead, anything that happened after that shouldn't count.[/QUOTE]

But that's the point, the ball is NOT dead, as he's still an active runner. If the ball had touched the ground while in his possession before he went into the end zone or his knee etc. had touched down beforehand then yes it would be a downed ball. But he caught it in mid air and ran straight into the EZ. There have been other examples in the past where a runners momentum carried him into the EZ and it was ruled a TB. Arguably the ref should have assessed it wasn't his momentum that carried him into the EZ, but you are asking the official to make a judgement call on whether a player deliberately ran over the goal line or not, and they are going to err on the side of caution.

NB I thought it hit his hand warmer on the replay but I only saw it from the one angle where it moved as the ball gets near him. That could easily be simultaneous movement and an optical illusion. I was a bit narked that we didn't get any other angles (at least I don't recall any) to confirm that. And the studio didn't seem keen on looking at it more closely so I can only assume it wasn't challenged because someone had an angle that confirmed it didn't hit.

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[quote=AnonEmouse;1273613][B]But that's the point, the ball is NOT dead, as he's still an active runner. [/B]If the ball had touched the ground while in his possession before he went into the end zone or his knee etc. had touched down beforehand then yes it would be a downed ball. But he caught it in mid air and ran straight into the EZ. There have been other examples in the past where a runners momentum carried him into the EZ and it was ruled a TB. Arguably the ref should have assessed it wasn't his momentum that carried him into the EZ, but you are asking the official to make a judgement call on whether a player deliberately ran over the goal line or not, and they are going to err on the side of caution.

NB I thought it hit his hand warmer on the replay but I only saw it from the one angle where it moved as the ball gets near him. That could easily be simultaneous movement and an optical illusion. I was a bit narked that we didn't get any other angles (at least I don't recall any) to confirm that. And the studio didn't seem keen on looking at it more closely so I can only assume it wasn't challenged because someone had an angle that confirmed it didn't hit.[/quote]

Yes it is. You're not allowed to run back a punt as a member of the kicking team, the ball is dead when you catch it, [I][U]he was absolutely [B]NOT[/B] an active runner.[/U][/I]

"The game clock operator shall stop the game clock (timeout) upon a signal by any official or upon the operator’s own positive knowledge:

b) when the kicking team recovers a scrimmage kick beyond the line of scrimmage;"

And then:

"When the kickers catch or recover a kick beyond the line of scrimmage, [B][U]the ball is dead at the spot of recovery[/U][/B], even if a member of the receiving team has first touched the ball."

This is why I say the [I][U]rule is badly written[/U][/I]: on one hand the [I][U]ball is dead[/U][/I] when caught by a [I][U]player of the kicking team[/U][/I]... but on the other hand if he [I][U]crosses the goal line it's a touchback[/U][/I].

Again, I think this rule was written for bang bang few centimeters of the goal line situations. I see how if you read it litteraly it could apply here, but I don't think it's the spirit of this rule.

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

This is an example of NFL rules differing from NCAA/IFAF rules and creating a rule bug.

Under NCAA/IFAF rules there's no such thing, because if a ball is touched/batted above the goal line the result is a touch back regardless of whether the kicking team's player touches the goal line or not (it's an illegal touch, not a foul, resulting in a touchback). On the other hand, if the ball is caught by a player of the kicking team the ball is dead and it's 1st down at the spot of recovery, regardless of what happens after that.

Makes it way clearer than the NFL rule IMO. But they must have tweaked the rule in order to allow this exciting play where a player can batt the ball above the goal line an avoid the touchback. But they should've specified the time element of this rule. Because having something that happened 5seconds + 10 yards after the ball was dead impact the play doesn't make much sense IMO.

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Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[url]http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/12_Rule9_Scrimmage_Kick.pdf[/url]

Section 2, article 2 - "First touching is a violation, and the receivers shall have the option of taking possession of the ball at the spot of first touching, provided no penalty is accepted on the play, or at the spot where the ball is dead."

Ball is not dead until the carrier downs it/himself or crosses the goal line. Had he dropped it after catching it, Tampa would have still been entitled to return it. By carrying it over the line Apke gave the Buccs the option to take the TB.

It is badly written/explained, and as I said, usually it's intended for occurrences where momentum carries the runner over the line, not a deliberate act. But you can't blame the officials for an interpretation of momentum when it's not defined in the rules (i.e. "Unless the player deliberately advances the ball" or the like).

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[quote=AnonEmouse;1273617][url]http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/12_Rule9_Scrimmage_Kick.pdf[/url]

Section 2, article 2 - "First touching is a violation, and the receivers shall have the option of taking possession of the ball at the spot of first touching, provided no penalty is accepted on the play, or at the spot where the ball is dead."

Ball is not dead until the carrier downs it/himself or crosses the goal line. Had he dropped it after catching it, Tampa would have still been entitled to return it. By carrying it over the line Apke gave the Buccs the option to take the TB.

It is badly written/explained, and as I said, usually it's intended for occurrences where momentum carries the runner over the line, not a deliberate act. But you can't blame the officials for an interpretation of momentum when it's not defined in the rules (i.e. "Unless the player deliberately advances the ball" or the like).[/quote]


Sorry pal, you're just wrong on that one. You're confusing an illegal touching of the ball and recovering the ball. There's absolutely no way you can run back a punt as a member of the kicking team, the ball is dead as soon as you recover it. I don't want to pull out the "I'm a ref" card because the NFL rule slightly differs from the ones I've studied, but you're confusing 2 different situations, [I][U]first touching, and recovering[/U][/I].

[URL="https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/30656411/questionable-nfl-playoff-officiating-decisions-happened-which-were-right"]Here's ESPN analysis on why it was a mistake.[/URL]

"The ball should have been marked where Apke first gained possession, and not a touchback. [B]By rule, a kick that goes past the line of scrimmage is dead as soon as a member of the kicking team downs it. [/B]The ball can't be advanced. There are many judgment calls over the course of a game that can be debated. This one was a matter of rule application. Washington should have been able to pin the Buccaneers deeper than it did."

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[QUOTE=FrenchSkin;1273619]Sorry pal, you're just wrong on that one. You're confusing an illegal touching of the ball and recovering the ball. There's absolutely no way you can run back a punt as a member of the kicking team, the ball is dead as soon as you recover it. I don't want to pull out the "I'm a ref" card because the NFL rule slightly differs from the ones I've studied, but you're confusing 2 different situations, [I][U]first touching, and recovering[/U][/I].



[URL="https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/30656411/questionable-nfl-playoff-officiating-decisions-happened-which-were-right"]Here's ESPN analysis on why it was a mistake.[/URL]



"The ball should have been marked where Apke first gained possession, and not a touchback. [B]By rule, a kick that goes past the line of scrimmage is dead as soon as a member of the kicking team downs it. [/B]The ball can't be advanced. There are many judgment calls over the course of a game that can be debated. This one was a matter of rule application. Washington should have been able to pin the Buccaneers deeper than it did."[/QUOTE]



Right and Apke should have known this. Zero skill plus zero brains = see ya later.

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[QUOTE=FrenchSkin;1273612]Nah I watched it 20 times and I really don't think it did.[/QUOTE]



Definitely right again. It somehow did not touch any of the Bucs players. Just our luck. Lol. So many little things that could have swung this game. The big one is that squib kick. That was just absolutely nonsense. Turning point imo. We had momentum for a brief moment until our coaching staff out thought themselves. A little bit of a bad habit if you ask me.

Re: Bucs Postgame
 

[QUOTE=punch it in;1273620]Right and Apke should have known this. Zero skill plus zero brains = see ya later.[/QUOTE]He should have known this. .. but it shouldn't have made a difference because the refs should've known it too...

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