Re: The hypocrisy of the ________
 

[quote=sdskinsfan2001;1226630]Its absolutely amazing the excuses and the blaming of others, people are making for those 2 piece of shits. We can never just say they were evil losers and what happened was solely their faults.[/quote]

Is that it?

Those guys are evil losers and what happened was solely their faults.

Alright guys time for the next phase, let's let it die down until it happens again.

Re: The hypocrisy of the ________
 

[quote=mooby;1226640]Is that it?

Those guys are evil losers and what happened was solely their faults.

Alright guys time for the next phase, let's let it die down until it happens again.[/quote]

We need to work on how to prevent these people from reaching this point or stopping them before they can.

I was talking strictly about all the blame and excuses there is for those 2. They were losers and its not anyone elses fault besides their own for the shootings.

Re: The hypocrisy of the ________
 

I think it’s been past time to address crazy people with access to guns. The problem is defining crazy. We are a nation on perception drugs for various things. The red flag thinking from the president is a good start imo, but I think it can be expanded.

Also fighting white supremacy online is another talking point. As well as the mental health crisis we are seeing rapidly increasing with younger generations. This is a multi prong issue...but when we see historical lows of gun violence since 1993...the narrative of gun control is an absolute failure.

So if we are gonna come out thinking bans on guns or assault rifles, count me out.

Re: The hypocrisy of the ________
 

[quote=Chico23231;1226651][B]I think it’s been past time to address crazy people with access to guns. The problem is defining crazy.[/B] We are a nation on perception drugs for various things. The red flag thinking from the president is a good start imo, but I think it can be expanded.

Also fighting white supremacy online is another talking point. As well as the mental health crisis we are seeing rapidly increasing with younger generations. This is a multi prong issue..[B].but when we see historical lows of gun violence since 1993...the narrative of gun control is an absolute failure[/B].

So if we are gonna come out thinking bans on guns or assault rifles, count me out.[/quote]

I am not sure if you are talking about mental illness or not but there is zero correltaion between mental illness and perpertrating violence. In fact the research shows that they are more likely the victims. The scientific research just doesn't validate the view point that mental illness is a driving factor for violence towards others.

I think where red flag laws will have the greatest impact is on suicides. A significant portion of suicides since about 50% are impulsivity and I think that is something important to consider.

In terms of gun control I will have to disagree. Just because we are at lows does not mean we can't do better. U.S. firearm homicide rate is 7 times higher than the next developed country, Canada, which if you look at their gun control legislation, I personally think it is something both democrats and most republicans can get behind. Since the assault weapon ban ended mass shootings have increased 183%, while there are other variables at play access has a significant impact on the increase. Furthermore states with stricter gun access laws have lower firearm homicide rates. Once again there are other variables that assist that correlation. Lastly and to me this is an important one because I love the ladies, an increase in state wide firearm owenership increases female firearm associated homicide. The research found for each 10% state level increase there was a 10% increase in female homicde victioms related to firearms.

Personally I hope congress is willing to make comprehensive federal background checks a priority. The research shows countries that do better with this have lower firearm homicide rates. This would be a good start and gun control that almost 90% of the population agrees is important. I would like to go back to the assualt weapon ban, but recognize that, that is probably not going to happen. If we can't get comprehensive background checks agreed upon I fear that we are accepting mass shootings as a way of life in America.

Re: The hypocrisy of the ________
 

[quote=Chico23231;1226651]I think it’s been past time to address crazy people with access to guns. The problem is defining crazy. We are a nation on perception drugs for various things. The red flag thinking from the president is a good start imo, but I think it can be expanded.

Also fighting white supremacy online is another talking point. As well as the mental health crisis we are seeing rapidly increasing with younger generations. This is a multi prong issue...but when we see historical lows of gun violence since 1993...the narrative of gun control is an absolute failure.

So if we are gonna come out thinking bans on guns or assault rifles, count me out.[/quote]

You start off strong but finish weak. Sorry Baltimore Skins, I think an assault rifle ban is an unattainable goal. Would it help? Sure. But I am fine settling for solutions that even Republicans could get behind.

I'll settle for improved background checks. The Dayton shooter made a rape list and a kill list in high school. How hard would it be to put a note on his permanent record mentioning that, then have it come up when he tries to buy whatever gun he used for the murders? And it's not just him, a ton of these shooters had previous red flags that were all ignored. We need a better database and a uniform system across the board that would improve background checks.

Re: The hypocrisy of the ________
 

Both post are not addressing why. Y’all are falling into the same narratives...

Again, let me address the false narratives on constant blast from the left ...first gun homicides rates have drastically dropped since highs in the early 90s, dropping over half. Violent crime is historical lows across the board. School shootings...probably the biggest left lie, schools are much safer than they have ever been. Period. School shootings are not at epidemic levels. Also if you are gonna quote overall gun deaths, [B]remove suicide[/B] deaths which skew. Also, handguns overwhelmingly are used in gun violence, not assault weapons.

What do we need to talk about is the rising phenomenon of mass shooter incidents and look at the causes. The mental health crisis in this country is very real. Look at the suicide rates among young people. What is encouraging is we talk about it more, but unconsciously still participate in behaviors which lead to problems. Oprah is right, we are lacking a moral core...
[url]https://time.com/5550803/depression-suicide-rates-youth/[/url]

Gun background checks are not new...we have a program in place. Assault weapon...I would favor an increase age ownership to like 24. Red flag laws make most sense.

If you want to go after the front lines of gun violence which are inner cities such as Baltimore, Chicago, Cleveland, St. Louis...I find it laughable the left hates guns so much, but won’t support legislation that puts a person behind bars for mandatory 5 years for an illegal possession of one. The hypocrisy is truly amazing.

Re: The hypocrisy of the ________
 

[quote=Chico23231;1226691]Both post are not addressing why. Y’all are falling into the same narratives...

Again, let me address the false narratives on constant blast from the left ...first gun homicides rates have drastically dropped since highs in the early 90s, dropping over half. Violent crime is historical lows across the board. School shootings...probably the biggest left lie, schools are much safer than they have ever been. Period. School shootings are not at epidemic levels. Also if you are gonna quote overall gun deaths, [B]remove suicide[/B] deaths which skew. Also, handguns overwhelmingly are used in gun violence, not assault weapons.

What do we need to talk about is the rising phenomenon of mass shooter incidents and look at the causes. The mental health crisis in this country is very real. Look at the suicide rates among young people. What is encouraging is we talk about it more, but unconsciously still participate in behaviors which lead to problems. Oprah is right, we are lacking a moral core...
[url]https://time.com/5550803/depression-suicide-rates-youth/[/url]

Gun background checks are not new...we have a program in place. Assault weapon...I would favor an increase age ownership to like 24. Red flag laws make most sense.

If you want to go after the front lines of gun violence which are inner cities such as Baltimore, Chicago, Cleveland, St. Louis...I find it laughable the left hates guns so much, but won’t support legislation that puts a person behind bars for mandatory 5 years for an illegal possession of one. The hypocrisy is truly amazing.[/quote]

Chico , you are the problem . You and people like you that want to make this about Politics instead of solutions .Biggest problem in Gun control today is the ignorance of people /voters like chico.

Re: The hypocrisy of the ________
 

[quote=Giantone;1226693]Chico , you are the problem . You and people like you that want to make this about Politics instead of solutions .Biggest problem in Gun control today is the ignorance of people /voters like chico.[/quote]

[IMG]https://i.pinimg.com/originals/88/aa/5a/88aa5a9708fe10faa3529b8420fc07aa.png[/IMG]

Re: The hypocrisy of the ________
 

G1 read my 2 post and let’s list out what I’ve recommended:

1) a national directive to fight online extremism like we already fight Islamic extremist focused on white, nationalist extremists and antifa
2) red flag law
3) raise age to own assault rifle to 23 or 24
4) focus on mental health issues facing kids within the education system
5) bring mandatory 5 for possession of an illegal firearm.

Re: The hypocrisy of the ________
 

[quote=Chico23231;1226696]G1 read my 2 post and let’s list out what I’ve recommended:

1) a national directive to fight online extremism like we already fight Islamic extremist focused on white, nationalist extremists and antifa
2) red flag law
3) raise age to own assault rifle to 23 or 24
4) focus on mental health issues facing kids within the education system
5) bring mandatory 5 for possession of an illegal firearm.[/quote]

chico read your last post, left this , left that .


..............chico, you're the problem.

Re: The hypocrisy of the ________
 

[quote=Giantone;1226698]chico read your last post, left this , left that .


..............chico, you're the problem.[/quote]

I will slay the left and media false narratives with glee because we really should focus on the [B]real issue[/B] and not bullshit. If you want to hold onto false narratives and lies of the media and the left then simply state what you truly want, all guns made illegal. In this case the phenomenon of the mass shooter event is the real issue we need to face.

I’m happy to slay false narratives from the right such as “more guns is the answer”

And most would say proposals such as red flag law, raising the age of assault weapon ownership as radical on the right.

Re: The hypocrisy of the ________
 

Chico every statistic I gave you has been replicated in studies. It all deals with gun homicide. We are still significantly higher rates than any other country and it is not even close. None of them include suicide. It is all gun related homicide data. If you want I can provide research papers that are all replicable in their analysis.

Mooby I agree we will not see a reinstatement of the Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act. I am willing to compromise on strengthened and universal background checks but I don’t think we will see it.

Re: The hypocrisy of the ________
 

It’s just really tough to compare our culture to others and say we should emulate other countries when it’s really not a true comparison. Like when Bernie says we will be just like Sweden or Denmark or whatever socialist country...these aren’t comparable, and would never work.

But as a country we have trended way down to historical lows when it comes to violent crime and gun homicides. I’m willing to do more.

The federal assault weapon ban did not work the first time...the evidence is clear.

We will never ban weapons here because it’s the Ultimate check to the government power. Just think if China and Venezuela had armed citizens, those regimes would fall.


Now you would surely support a federal 5 year mandatory for possession of illegal weapon? Because folks who shouldnt have one should be punished for possessing one?

Re: The hypocrisy of the ________
 

I agree that we are different. Culturally the constitution and the second amendment make guns a way of life in a way that is far more extreme than any other country. But I believe America is the best country in the world and while we may never have the lowest gun homicide rates for a developed country I don’t believe we have to accept our current status.

I also don’t think we should have a van on weapons just certain ones like assault weapons. You reference theban did not work I would love to see data if you have it share on that.

In terms of sentencing I would definitely be in favor of a 5 year prison sentence for possession of an illegal firearm. Mandatory? For most situations. I don’t think an adult with Down’s syndrome for example or a 13 year old should be held to those standards but an adult in the median of the bell curve no problem

Re: The hypocrisy of the ________
 

[quote=BaltimoreSkins;1226716]I agree that we are different. Culturally the constitution and the second amendment make guns a way of life in a way that is far more extreme than any other country. But I believe America is the best country in the world and while we may never have the lowest gun homicide rates for a developed country I don’t believe we have to accept our current status.

I also don’t think we should have a van on weapons just certain ones like assault weapons. You reference theban did not work I would love to see data if you have it share on that.

In terms of sentencing I would definitely be in favor of a 5 year prison sentence for possession of an illegal firearm. Mandatory? For most situations. I don’t think an adult with Down’s syndrome for example or a 13 year old should be held to those standards but an adult in the median of the bell curve no problem[/quote]

Cool...yeah certainly some situations like that who wouldn't want to prosecute.

I also think there is an opportunity with technology in the development of "smart gun" where gun owners can only operate their own gun. Responsible gun ownership has always been a problem...too many stories of children accidently shooting themselves with owners who negligently leave guns out or guns being easily stolen only to be used in other crimes.

Re: The hypocrisy of the ________
 

First it was the Russia conspiracies, then Supreme Court conspiracies, now the Epstein conspiracies...this is why people claim the mainstream media is the enemy of the people.

Re: The hypocrisy of the ________
 

[quote=Chico23231;1226760]First it was the Russia conspiracies, then Supreme Court conspiracies, now the Epstein conspiracies...this is why people claim the mainstream media is the enemy of the people.[/quote]

Common denominator is...................?





chico what is scary is your acting more and more like trump and his stupid tweets every day.

Re: The hypocrisy of the ________
 

[quote=Giantone;1226769]Common denominator is...................?





chico what is scary is your acting more and more like trump and his stupid tweets every day.[/quote]

Common denominator is all outlandishly false.

Re: The hypocrisy of the ________
 

[quote=Chico23231;1226770]Common denominator is all outlandishly false.[/quote]

Epstein was falsely accused and was not friends with Bill Clinton ,Prince Andrew or.......................donnie trump. Of course he committed suicide in a high security prison after coming "OFF" a previous suicide watch:doh::banghead: . trump makes a tweet and his lap dog Barr orders an investigation? Who is floating the conspiracies the media or trump?

Re: The hypocrisy of the ________
 

[quote=mooby;1226687]You start off strong but finish weak. Sorry Baltimore Skins, I think an assault rifle ban is an unattainable goal. Would it help? Sure. But I am fine settling for solutions that even Republicans could get behind.

I'll settle for improved background checks. The Dayton shooter made a rape list and a kill list in high school. How hard would it be to put a note on his permanent record mentioning that, then have it come up when he tries to buy whatever gun he used for the murders? And it's not just him, a ton of these shooters had previous red flags that were all ignored. We need a better database and a uniform system across the board that would improve background checks.[/quote]

Look at the mind set were trying to change...............


[IMG]https://www.history-a2z.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/84611/cabd5c961dcdb8bc04d243c420321aeb_2191.jpg[/IMG]

Re: The hypocrisy of the ________
 

I truly hate the gun debate. No one wants to see mass shootings, gang shootings, shootings resulting in suicide. I am not defending those actions by bad actors.

That said,

[QUOTE]In 2018, an estimated 40,000 people lost their lives to car crashes[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]In 2015, the most recent year for which data is available, a total of 638,169 abortions were reported[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]CDC Stats Gun deaths
2017
Suicide 23,854
Homicide 14,544[/QUOTE]

Which number seems the most outlandish?

Re: The hypocrisy of the ________
 

[quote=Chico23231;1226760]First it was the Russia conspiracies, then Supreme Court conspiracies, now the Epstein conspiracies...this is why people claim the mainstream media is the enemy of the people.[/quote]

Who needs the media when the President tweets out ridiculous conspiracy theories.

Re: The hypocrisy of the ________
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1226809]I truly hate the gun debate. No one wants to see mass shootings, gang shootings, shootings resulting in suicide. I am not defending those actions by bad actors.

That said,







Which number seems the most outlandish?[/quote]

All different issues .....................lets not pull a trump switch and bait.


This is about guns.................................

Re: The hypocrisy of the ________
 

[quote=Giantone;1226821]All different issues .....................lets not pull a trump switch and bait.


This is about guns.................................[/quote]

No it's about the deaths caused by guns. And the fact that more people are killed by cars then guns, and the fact that order of magnitude more people with no voice are killed because they have no voice. Gun violence creates fear, and fear motivates politicians to make bad laws. Car deaths are accepted because of the necessity of cars is seen as greater then the necessity of guns. Death by abortion is accepted because the murdered party can't defend themselves with twitter accounts #inutero

Re: The hypocrisy of the ________
 

[quote=Giantone;1226821]All different issues .....................lets not pull a trump switch and bait.


This is about guns.................................[/quote]

It is actually about the media spectacle and fear caused by gun violence

Re: The hypocrisy of the ________
 

[quote=MTK;1226815]Who needs the media when the President tweets out ridiculous conspiracy theories.[/quote]

I can’t disagree because he did tweet out a Clinton one. It’s insane

Re: The hypocrisy of the ________
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1226826]No it's about the deaths caused by guns. And the fact that more people are killed by cars then guns, and the fact that order of magnitude more people with no voice are killed because they have no voice. Gun violence creates fear, and fear motivates politicians to make bad laws. Car deaths are accepted because of the necessity of cars is seen as greater then the necessity of guns. Death by abortion is accepted because the murdered party can't defend themselves with twitter accounts #inutero[/quote]

Car deaths have been greatly reduced over the years with laws and improvements in safety features. Abortions are at a decade low. Gun deaths however have been on the rise. Can't we say all three issues are a concern? I don't understand the need to prioritize, especially if you're basing it on just raw numbers in a vacuum.

Re: The hypocrisy of the ________
 

I mean we've gotten to the point where bulletproof backpacks for kids in school is a thing. That's just mind blowing.

Re: The hypocrisy of the ________
 

[quote=MTK;1226835]Car deaths have been greatly reduced over the years with laws and improvements in safety features. Abortions are at a decade low. Gun deaths however have been on the rise. Can't we say all three issues are a concern? I don't understand the need to prioritize, especially if you're basing it on just raw numbers in a vacuum.[/quote]

I think you certainly can prioritize, and work to require added safety features to guns, like we do cars, and stronger mental health requirements, like we should with abortions. Anytime you have an area that can be recognized as preventable deaths, you should do what you can to minimize those risks, WITHOUT infringing on the rights and freedoms of law abiding citizens. The problem is the gun debate gets taken out of that context into media hyperbole around the latest tragic incident so that the government can pass bad law.

In terms of accidental or negligent deaths, [note i am combining year data to show a point so these numbers - while relatively accurate to each other - are not exacts from a specific year] you can have 500 accidental gun deaths(2015) ratio compared to 136000 total accidental deaths(2014) but gun activists will scream bloody murder.

Instead of dealing with the urban violence and root causes brought on by (mainly) liberal inner city politics, gun activists will scream for gun control as if it is a panacea.

So yes you can deal with guns rationally - creating smart safeties, increasing gun safety courses, and finding ways to keep hands out of violent offenders. But lots of bad laws can get thrown into society due to the fear/shock from attacks like Dayton

Re: The hypocrisy of the ________
 

[quote=MTK;1226842]I mean we've gotten to the point where bulletproof backpacks for kids in school is a thing. That's just mind blowing.[/quote]

But is it reality based or fear based thing. Which is more likely on a given day, a deadly car accident, a death from sickness, or a shooter in a school?

There are urban city schools that have lived with metal detectors for decades, but now that suburban schoolchildren are threatened the media elite/liberal nannies want to pass bad laws and create fear driven panic to do it.

Re: The hypocrisy of the ________
 

Even if I was for banning AR-15s (I am not), I don't trust the government or most of the MSM to stop there. When that fails to prevent shooting deaths, and it will fail, then they'll just move on to the next type guns that are legal to try and make illegal.

In addition, criminals are criminals because they break laws. I don't see how more gun laws/restrictions is the answer. They will still find ways to get these guns.

We need to find what causes these people, whether a white supremacist, or a local gang banger, to get to the point where they think taking peoples lives is the answer. And stopping them before they do.

Unfortunately with 400 million very diverse people this is extremely difficult.

Re: The hypocrisy of the ________
 

Schools have historically gotten much more safe. Last year NPR did a good story about it and how parkland, columbine, and sandy hook...which were targeted mass shootings...amplified a narrative schools are unsafe and violent. It’s not the case. Also because of the fact some orgs have done some goal post moving stats to include violence by non-students, during non school hours, during the summer (school not in session), on school ground or on the street where the school is located to greatly inflate school violence numbers. CNN of course ran the fake numbers

Also remember when you talk about gun deaths to remove suicides from them...suicide is a mental health issues, of course conveniently being left out.

Re: The hypocrisy of the ________
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1226845]But is it reality based or fear based thing. Which is more likely on a given day, a deadly car accident, a death from sickness, or a shooter in a school?

There are urban city schools that have lived with metal detectors for decades, but now that suburban schoolchildren are threatened the media elite/liberal nannies want to pass bad laws and create fear driven panic to do it.[/quote]

The fact bulletproof backpacks even exist is pretty sad if you ask me. I'd hope we could all agree on that.

What bad laws are you talking about exactly? We've had a good 20 years of school shootings going back to Columbine, just wondering what "bad laws" we've seen go on the books in response.

Re: The hypocrisy of the ________
 

[quote=MTK;1226853]The fact bulletproof backpacks even exist is pretty sad if you ask me. I'd hope we could all agree on that.

What bad laws are you talking about exactly? We've had a good 20 years of school shootings going back to Columbine, just wondering what "bad laws" we've seen go on the books in response.[/quote]

I guess the other viewpoint would be that for 20 years there have been changes and yet I think we all agree the shootings are getting worse.

[quote][URL="https://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-09/how-many-gun-bills-actually-pass-after-mass-shootings/"]Popular Science[/URL] In the 12 months after the Columbine shooting, lawmakers proposed more than 800 new bills having to do with guns. Some promoted gun control—for example, beefing up background checks—while others promoted gun ownership rights—for example, protecting the rights of gun owners who cross state lines with weapons. About 10 percent of those bills passed[/quote]

That means that about 80 laws were passed in the year after Columbine. Yet they didn't curb or reduce the violence. As you said we have had 20 years since to show that laws by themselves aren't the answer. We have had background checks that screen law abiding citizens since 2008 yet we continue to see mass shootings. Is it a bad law, not necessarily, but it's a chicken little law because it cries out fear instead of responsibility. We have laws to make it illegal for bad people to have guns, and as Chico and BaltimoreSkins agreed the penalty (barring extreme exceptions) should be tough. But adding levels of laws and bureaucracy simply increase government without a corresponding increase in security.

Further, many if not all the mass shootings could have been prevented with the laws already on the books

[quote]When I asked her opinion, Schildkraut said she thinks that upon closer examination, the new bills turn out to be redundant. "We do have so many great pieces of legislation in place, both for gun rights and for gun control," she says. "I think it's more important to really work on enforcing what you have before you rush out more pieces that are not going to be enforced."[/quote]

Bad laws can be redundant laws that make more bureacratic work for police officers, they can be laws that have placebo effects but do more to remove rights then enhance safety, and they often have smiley face names to make it more emotionally tied to victims of 1 off incidents then addressing underlying facts and causes.

Re: The hypocrisy of the ________
 

Well as long as the NRA has politicians in their back pocket nothing truly meaningful in terms of gun reform is going to happen. Therefore we got bad and redundant laws. It's basically a waste of time to even discuss it.

Re: The hypocrisy of the ________
 

[quote=MTK;1226861]Well as long as the NRA has politicians in their back pocket nothing truly meaningful in terms of gun reform is going to happen. Therefore we got bad and redundant laws. It's basically a waste of time to even discuss it.[/quote]

So you don't consider [URL="https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=49"]instant background checks[/URL] meaningful (passed in 2008 and signed by a Republican president)?

Re: The hypocrisy of the ________
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1226864]So you don't consider [URL="https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=49"]instant background checks[/URL] meaningful (passed in 2008 and signed by a Republican president)?[/quote]

The big man got the bump stock gone this year. Boom, outta here

Re: The hypocrisy of the ________
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1226864]So you don't consider [URL="https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=49"]instant background checks[/URL] meaningful (passed in 2008 and signed by a Republican president)?[/quote]

You just said yourself despite background checks we keep seeing mass shootings. Sounds like a chicken little law.

Re: The hypocrisy of the ________
 

[QUOTE=MTK;1226870]You just said yourself despite background checks we keep seeing mass shootings. Sounds like a chicken little law.[/QUOTE]Moreso a redundant law that only stops those willing to be stopped.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

Re: The hypocrisy of the ________
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1226809]I truly hate the gun debate. No one wants to see mass shootings, gang shootings, shootings resulting in suicide. I am not defending those actions by bad actors.

That said,







Which number seems the most outlandish?[/quote]

Okay but we are constantly working and improving car safety. Family planning and access to birth control in order to reduce abortions have been a priority but we have been very passive on gun violence. For the record they can all be improved. Much like guns car deaths can be reduced with improved technology, as Chico mentioned. Abortions will come down with improved access to preventative measures. I find the argument that gun violence shouldn’t be a priority because deaths from these issues are greater is a red herring argument. We are competent enough to reduce deaths from all of these issues.