Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]I think we differ on what "real opportunity" is. I think practices, minicamp, training camp, and preseason games this past year do give Ramsey the opportunity to improve and the coaching staff the chance to evaluate his progress.

But the issue here isn't what will Brunell do in 2006. It's why can't you respect what he did in 2005? His overall body of work, as Matty has said.[/QUOTE]

But what about 2004!!

j/k

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]But what about 2004!!

j/k[/QUOTE]

LOL...bastard

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=12thMan]Well, that's interesting.

Let me jump off track here just a little, Offiss. I, like yourself, am not really a stat guy. But you mentioned earlier that ultimatley we should measure Brunells worth in terms of wins/losses. Tom Brady and Brunell had the same exact records this year. Now if I were to take your statement literally, I would have to believe that you think Tom B. and Mark B. are equals.

Am I correct in assuming that or am I reaching a little too much here?[/QUOTE]

Kind of a stupid question but I will indulge,

Who were the wins and loses against, and how were those games won? Yes most of the Pat's wins are directly attributed to Brady's play and his ability to move an offense as well as control the ball and keep it away from opposing teams, especially this past season, the Pat's until late didn't have their standard shutdown defense going for them, with all the injuries that team had it was a major accomplishment to keep them afloat and finish where they did, and for the record they didn't need to win their last game and took it easy, that is the only reason they finished tied with us, if Brunell was Brady like, maybe we could have rested before the playoffs as well.

Our defense was better than the Pat's D this year.

We might take a look at what Brady did with Patton, compared to what Brunell was doing before he was hurt.

I don't know, mentioning Brady in the same breath with Brunell seems kind of ridiculous don't you think?

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=offiss]
I don't know, mentioning Brady in the same breath with Brunell seems kind of ridiculous don't you think?[/QUOTE]

Not quite as ridiculous as mentioning Ramsey and Aikman in the same breath.

;)

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=12thMan]Offiss,

How could anyone say with reason Brunell will be better next year. No one, including me, thought he would be as good as he was this year. That's a foolish prediction because so many variables, out of his control, come into play.

If Brunell isn't that good of a quarterback, then I don't know how you define good. And for you to say Patrick would have done better, to get let's say 11 or 12 wins is total conjecture on your part.[/QUOTE]


Really? What gave it away, his lack of playing time? :doh:

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=offiss]I don't know, mentioning Brady in the same breath with Brunell seems kind of ridiculous don't you think?[/QUOTE]

That can't be as bad as mentioning Ramsey and Aikman in the same breath.

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=Redskins_P]That can't be as bad as mentioning Ramsey and Aikman in the same breath.[/QUOTE]

Beat you to the punch :)

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Not quite as ridiculous as mentioning Ramsey and Aikman in the same breath.

;)[/QUOTE]

I didn't compare them as QB's, just their circumstances before hand. SMART ASS! ;)

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=offiss]Kind of a stupid question but I will indulge,

Who were the wins and loses against, and how were those games won? Yes most of the Pat's wins are directly attributed to Brady's play and his ability to move an offense as well as control the ball and keep it away from opposing teams, especially this past season, the Pat's until late didn't have their standard shutdown defense going for them, with all the injuries that team had it was a major accomplishment to keep them afloat and finish where they did, and for the record they didn't need to win their last game and took it easy, that is the only reason they finished tied with us, if Brunell was Brady like, maybe we could have rested before the playoffs as well.

Our defense was better than the Pat's D this year.

We might take a look at what Brady did with Patton, compared to what Brunell was doing before he was hurt.

I don't know, mentioning Brady in the same breath with Brunell seems kind of ridiculous don't you think?[/QUOTE]

Exactly my point, it is ridiculous. For the record, I think Brady's a better QB.

I do, however, find it interesting and funny how you make allowances for Brady and the Pats, but you make none for Brunell.

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=offiss]I didn't compare them as QB's, just their circumstances before hand. SMART ASS! ;)[/QUOTE]


Troy Aikman was the first overall pick, so their circumstance are much different. Ramsey was considered the 3rd best QB coming out of college.

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

News flash everyone, in case you didn't realize it offiss is a Brunell hater.

None of our success this year can be attributable to Brunell. Yeah I know, a 3000 yard passer with 23 TDs and only 10 INTs has to be given some credit, right?

Nope.

Don't look at the stats... yeah I know that's a common way to measure a player but you have to ignore the facts here and trust that we somehow managed to win 10 regular season games and a playoff game with absolutely no meaningful contribution from the QB position whatsoever.

Don't look at the entire season either as a gauge for Brunell's success. Forgot about those 8 games in which he posted a 90 or better QB rating. Instead, let's judge his season on his worst 3 performances when the entire offense was struggling and serveral key players including Brunell himself was banged up. That's where you see the true measure of a QB, that's where you see what kind of QB Mark Brunell is.

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=12thMan]Exactly my point, it is ridiculous. For the record, I think Brady's a better QB.

I do, however, find it interesting and funny how you make allowances for Brady and the Pats, but you make none for Brunell.[/QUOTE]


Again ridiculous, you fall right back into the same nonesense, are you saying you can't see the difference between the 2.

Brady plays to win, Brunell plays not to lose.

Brady attacks, Brunell leaves it for the defense.

Basically what you want to hear is if Brady wins and throws for 350 yards a 4 td's and beats the Steelers 28-24, and Brunell throws for 49 yards, and the defense scores 2 TD's and we beat the 49ers 14 nothing, I should give Brunell Brady type status because they both won? :frusty:

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=offiss]Again ridiculous, you fall right back into the same nonesense, are you saying you can't see the difference between the 2.

Brady plays to win, Brunell plays not to lose.

Brady attacks, Brunell leaves it for the defense.

Basically what you want to hear is if Brady wins and throws for 350 yards a 4 td's and beats the Steelers 28-24, and Brunell throws for 49 yards, and the defense scores 2 TD's and we beat the 49ers 14 nothing, I should give Brunell Brady type status because they both won? :frusty:[/QUOTE]

Actually your whole argument is ridiculous.

If you read your previous post. You mentioned how the Pats defense was banged up and wasn't stellar until the end of the year, but you wouldn't give Brunell the same benefit of the doubt when he was in a very similiar situation.

Again my issue isn't trying to compare Brunell v. Brady, as much as I'm trying to show you how much you reall don't like him, though you will never say that. It seems you pick and choose your facts to suit your argument, when you really need to admit Mark Brunell had a good year.

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]News flash everyone, in case you didn't realize it offiss is a Brunell hater.

None of our success this year can be attributable to Brunell. Yeah I know, a 3000 yard passer with 23 TDs and only 10 INTs has to be given some credit, right?

Nope.

Don't look at the stats... yeah I know that's a common way to measure a player but you have to ignore the facts here and trust that we somehow managed to win 10 regular season games and a playoff game with absolutely no meaningful contribution from the QB position whatsoever.

Don't look at the entire season either as a gauge for Brunell's success. Forgot about those 8 games in which he posted a 90 or better QB rating. Instead, let's judge his season on his worst 3 performances when the entire offense was struggling and serveral key players including Brunell himself was banged up. That's where you see the true measure of a QB, that's where you see what kind of QB Mark Brunell is.[/QUOTE]

Brunell hater or Ramsey lover? Does Ramsey live in New Jersey? Sometimes I think so... ;)

I normally don't chime in, but I enjoy reading and laughing. :insane:

Re: Will Saunders Effect Our Qb Situation?
 

[QUOTE=offiss]Actually it's nobody's offense right now, and we defiently took a turn towards the west coast offense around the 4th or 5th game because of the futility on offense, and that was Musgraves influence, Gibbs was probably calling most of the play's, but theres a reason Saunders is being brought in, and it's not because everyone is trying to take credit for our offensive output this past season.[/QUOTE]

No way did we run any resimblence to a west coast offense. 50 gut and diesel 40 gut all that crap is not west coast. We ran no quick slants, drags anything like that. The screens are part of every NFL offense. I just dont see where you get we ran any thing resembling west coast offense. but that doesn't matter, Gibbs and Saunders learned from each other so they are going to be on the same page.

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

Just for the hell of it, here are Brady and Brunell's stats versus comparable opponents this year.

Tom Brady

SD (L 17-41) 19-32, 224 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT, 78.1 rating
DEN (L 20-28) 24-26. 299 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT, 79.9 rating
KC (L 16-26) 22-40, 248 yards, 1 TD, 4 INTs, 42.5 rating
TB (W 28-0) 20-31, 258 yards, 3 TDs,0 INT, 122.8 rating

Mark Brunell

SD (L 17-23) 17-27, 194 yards, 1 TD, 0 INT, 1 Fumble, 96.8 rating
Den (L 19-21) 30-53, 322 yards, 2 TD, 0 INT, 1 Fumble, 87.1 rating
KC (L 21-28) 25-41, 331 yards, 3 TD, 0 INT, 2 Fumble, 110,9 rating
TB (L 35-36) 23-35, 155 yards, 2 TDs, 2 INT, 2 FUmbles, 79.0 rating

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=12thMan]Actually your whole argument is ridiculous.

If you read your previous post. You mentioned how the Pats defense was banged up and wasn't stellar until the end of the year, but you wouldn't give Brunell the same benefit of the doubt when he was in a very similiar situation.

Again my issue isn't trying to compare Brunell v. Brady, as much as I'm trying to show you how much you reall don't like him, though you will never say that. It seems you pick and choose your facts to suit your argument, when you really need to admit Mark Brunell had a good year.[/QUOTE]


How on earth do you figure he deserves the same benefit as Brady??????

Your talking in circles, I just said Brady won without a defense for most of the year, Brunell had a great defense for most of the year, and defiently down the stretch, so in hindsite he should have outperformed Brady because he had a better D, but he didn't. but I know you wont get that either. I see nothing similar between their circumstances, nothing. Brady can put a team on his back, Brunell is sitting in a cart yelling pull mule.

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]News flash everyone, in case you didn't realize it offiss is a Brunell hater.

None of our success this year can be attributable to Brunell. Yeah I know, a 3000 yard passer with 23 TDs and only 10 INTs has to be given some credit, right?

Nope.

Don't look at the stats... yeah I know that's a common way to measure a player but you have to ignore the facts here and trust that we somehow managed to win 10 regular season games and a playoff game with absolutely no meaningful contribution from the QB position whatsoever.

Don't look at the entire season either as a gauge for Brunell's success. Forgot about those 8 games in which he posted a 90 or better QB rating. Instead, let's judge his season on his worst 3 performances when the entire offense was struggling and serveral key players including Brunell himself was banged up. That's where you see the true measure of a QB, that's where you see what kind of QB Mark Brunell is.[/QUOTE]

Hahahaha!!! Pwned!

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]Just for the hell of it, here are Brady and Brunell's stats versus comparable opponents this year.

Tom Brady

SD (L 17-41) 19-32, 224 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT, 78.1 rating
DEN (L 20-28) 24-26. 299 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT, 79.9 rating
KC (L 16-26) 22-40, 248 yards, 1 TD, 4 INTs, 42.5 rating
TB (W 28-0) 20-31, 258 yards, 3 TDs,0 INT, 122.8 rating

Mark Brunell

SD (L 17-23) 17-27, 194 yards, 1 TD, 0 INT, 1 Fumble, 96.8 rating
Den (L 19-21) 30-53, 322 yards, 2 TD, 0 INT, 1 Fumble, 87.1 rating
KC (L 21-28) 25-41, 331 yards, 3 TD, 0 INT, 2 Fumble, 110,9 rating
TB (L 35-36) 23-35, 155 yards, 2 TDs, 2 INT, 2 FUmbles, 79.0 rating[/QUOTE]

Well, I'm sure there's some perfectly good explanation as to why Brunell has a higher rating than Brady against comparable oppenents.

Oh wait, Brady's numbers are supressed because he has his team on his back, and Brunells' aren't because he has mule pulling him.

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]News flash everyone, in case you didn't realize it offiss is a Brunell hater.

None of our success this year can be attributable to Brunell. Yeah I know, a 3000 yard passer with 23 TDs and only 10 INTs has to be given some credit, right?

Nope.

Don't look at the stats... yeah I know that's a common way to measure a player but you have to ignore the facts here and trust that we somehow managed to win 10 regular season games and a playoff game with absolutely no meaningful contribution from the QB position whatsoever.

Don't look at the entire season either as a gauge for Brunell's success. Forgot about those 8 games in which he posted a 90 or better QB rating. Instead, let's judge his season on his worst 3 performances when the entire offense was struggling and serveral key players including Brunell himself was banged up. That's where you see the true measure of a QB, that's where you see what kind of QB Mark Brunell is.[/QUOTE]


Your forgetting about the rest of his lowsey performances, I think he's had 4 real nice games in 2 years, but he's the man!

As if you wouldn't throw him under the truck like you did with Ramsey the second Gibbs makes a switch.




[QUOTE][Matty72wrote]Brunell thinks he can still start, problem for him is who would want him as their starter?? If he demands a trade, do you think anybody would be willing to take on his salary?[/QUOTE]

Obviously Matty you would. :hater:

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

Matty is man enough at least to appreciate that Brunell did a very good job this year and proved a lot of doubters wrong. A lot of doubters, but not all apparently

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

I've never tried to hide the fact I wasn't pleased with Brunell last year... who didn't want to personally escort him outta DC last year??

But I'm talking about 2005.

Brunell proved me dead wrong and I've gladly admitted as much.

When Gibbs made the switch I wasn't a huge fan, but I said ok, if Gibbs thinks this gives us the best shot at winning, I'll get behind Brunell. I wasn't going to sit here and pretend like I knew who should be playing QB. 10 wins later and a playoff appearance it looks like good old Joe knew what he was doing after all.

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]When Gibbs made the switch I wasn't a huge fan, but I said ok, if Gibbs thinks this gives us the best shot at winning, I'll get behind Brunell. I wasn't going to sit here and pretend like I knew who should be playing QB. 10 wins later and a playoff appearance it looks like good old Joe knew what he was doing after all.[/QUOTE]

It comes down to this:
Who would know more about the better QB for the job...
Gibbs or a guy who watchs the skins on TV?

Of course we have our own opinions and want to think we understand everything about our favorite team, but at some point, the armchair QB thing just starts sounding arrogant.

I though Brunnel was washed up last season. When Gibbs made the switch, I was skeptical, but I decided Gibbs must see something the rest of us don't. I think that 3 superbowl rings with 3 different QBs should earn a guy pretty much unlimited trust in picking the right one to run the offense.

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

you never know how this might effect the ramsey situation. if he has total autonomy for the offense then the smartest thing he could do is sit down with all three qb's and say something to the effect of...

everybody starts off with a clean sheet. the guy who plays my offense the best, starts ! it is that simple.

if he does that then perhaps ramsey will feel he can get a fair deal and might want to stay

that is my take on it. i do not think saunders is coming here to be told who to start and who to play.

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]I've never tried to hide the fact I wasn't pleased with Brunell last year... who didn't want to personally escort him outta DC last year??

But I'm talking about 2005.

Brunell proved me dead wrong and I've gladly admitted as much.

When Gibbs made the switch I wasn't a huge fan, but I said ok, if Gibbs thinks this gives us the best shot at winning, I'll get behind Brunell. I wasn't going to sit here and pretend like I knew who should be playing QB. 10 wins later and a playoff appearance it looks like good old Joe knew what he was doing after all.[/QUOTE]

i think that brunell wore down and his play deteriorated badly after the giant game and the injury he sustained. he is too brittle to overcome that type of thing. next year it will be more of the same. he will be fine until he gets nicked and then his throws will start to sail and his accuracy will plummet.
something to think about for the coming year.

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

also, the way brunell rolls to his left so much, i think he does not see the whole field and maybe that is why he had so much trouble finding patten all year.
he gave us a good year and a playoff run. i have no complaints with the way the year went-- but i think we will be very vulnerable with brunell next year unless our offensive line plays like the oldtime hogs (9 sacks or so for the whole year). if brunell has zero pressure he can shine but if he is running for his life it is another thing

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

Patrick Ramsey is out of Washington by 06. With Brunnel as our present and Cambell as our future their is no space for Ramsey in D.C.. He will be a decent backup for a team like the Texans or Panthers.

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

offiss,if ramsey goes and tears the league up with another team,are you going to say "i told you so?"

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=dmek25]offiss,if ramsey goes and tears the league up with another team,are you going to say "i told you so?"[/QUOTE]


I will start my own thread so you can all apologize! :)

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

If he doesn't, will you apologize?

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]If he doesn't, will you apologize?[/QUOTE]


Like your not already saving these post's? I expect you to do likewise if and when I am proven correct. ;)

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

I'm reall kind of baffled that we're even arguing about Ramsey anymore. I'm fine with arguing about Brunell or Campbell or the secret option #3 QB, but Ramsey? He's gone, simple as that. Why are we even discussing this still?

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=offiss]Your forgetting about the rest of his lowsey performances, I think he's had 4 real nice games in 2 years, but he's the man!

As if you wouldn't throw him under the truck like you did with Ramsey the second Gibbs makes a switch.






Obviously Matty you would. :hater:[/QUOTE]

Even If he Loses and Fumbles 3 times in a game it's never Brunells fault....No receivers...Or maybe the offensive line....He's A 1st Ballot Hall of Famer

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=railcon56@comcast.net]Even If he Loses and Fumbles 3 times in a game it's never Brunells fault....No receivers...Or maybe the offensive line....He's A 1st Ballot Hall of Famer[/QUOTE]

Obviously you're glossing over any of the perceived anti-Ramsey takes.

I'm well aware he had some bad outings this year, I've repeatedly said that.

But by in large the good outweighed the bad, we did go 10-6 and won a playoff game... so some of the credit has to go his way, that's all I'm saying. Some people are refusing to acknowledge he had a good year.

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=railcon56@comcast.net]Even If he Loses and Fumbles 3 times in a game it's never Brunells fault....No receivers...Or maybe the offensive line....He's A 1st Ballot Hall of Famer[/QUOTE]


Exactly! The same excuses people use for Ramsey not starting, TO's and such, are never ackowledged when brunell is turning it over at the same rate or worse, and Brunell is the experienced veteran, those things shouldn't be happening at this stage of his carreer, Ramsey still has a chance to better himself.

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=railcon56@comcast.net]Even If he Loses and Fumbles 3 times in a game it's never Brunells fault....No receivers...Or maybe the offensive line....He's A 1st Ballot Hall of Famer[/QUOTE]

No one here is suggesting that Brunell is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but give him his due. He played a big part in the Redskins making the playoffs.

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=offiss]Like your not already saving these post's? I expect you to do likewise if and when I am proven correct. ;)[/QUOTE]

My personal feeling is that Ramsey is probably just about as good as he's going to get. He can have a long solid career. Sometimes I think he's like Kitna with a better arm. But I don't see him reaching elite status. But that's just me. We'll just have to wait and see.

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

Brunell actually has a stronger arm than Green, in both distance and velocity.

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=railcon56@comcast.net]Even If he Loses and Fumbles 3 times in a game it's never Brunells fault....No receivers...Or maybe the offensive line....He's A 1st Ballot Hall of Famer[/QUOTE]

No one has ever made that statement or implied anything of the sort concerning Brunell. All we've ever said is that Brunell was the better choice and the proof is in the year we had. If Ramsey had played and gave us the same results, then Ramsey would have been the best choice. We're going by what we've seen as fact. With Mark Brunell playing quarterback this year, we made the playoffs.

Re: Will Saunders Affect Our QB Situation?
 

[QUOTE=skinsguy]No one has ever made that statement or implied anything of the sort concerning Brunell. All we've ever said is that Brunell was the better choice and the proof is in the year we had. If Ramsey had played and gave us the same results, then Ramsey would have been the best choice. We're going by what we've seen as fact. With Mark Brunell playing quarterback this year, we made the playoffs.[/QUOTE]

There are some that believe that Ramsey wasn't given a fair shake, and when he did, it was under Spurrier's rudimentary offense. Furthermore, they say that Gibbs unfairly yanked him before he could fully prove himself.