[QUOTE=Ramseyfan]Anyone remember how Simeon Rice said Tillman wasn't that good at football (though he had over 200 tackles - a franchise record - one year and 153 (3rd most in the league) in 2000), that he probably joined up because he watched too many Rambo movies? I sent my share of hate mail to Rice and I hope you all do the same.[/QUOTE]

Simeon Rice probably feels bad enough right about now ... there's enough hate in the world without us all sending the man nasty emails. Lord knows I've said some stupid things without thinking and put my foot in my mouth countless times. We should cut him some slack.

[QUOTE=BrudLee]"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings, which thinks that nothing is worth war, is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing, which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than him." -- John Stewart Mill (1806-1873)
RIP[/QUOTE]

Is that supposed to justify his death or make us feel guilty about not enlisting? I find your quote highly inappropriate and devoid of any value.

Rice has a right to be an idiot, he voiced his opinion. I hope he understands that Pat Tillman paid the ultimate price for him to do so.

[QUOTE=RedskinRat]Rice has a right to be an idiot, he voiced his opinion. I hope he understands that Pat Tillman paid the ultimate price for him to do so.[/QUOTE]

Maybe he understands, maybe he doesn't. I don't see what gets accomplished by sending him hate mail, except creating more anger and hatred. This is the type of crap that plants the seed of violence and war in the first place.

Let's not make a debate out of this tragedy. This thread should be devoted to thoughts about Pat Tillman, his family, and those that have made similar sacrifices.

We can debate the political and philosophical issues surrounding the war in another thread.

As far as Simeon Rice goes, I don't think his petty and thoughtless comments are worthy of attention or debate.

Thanks

[QUOTE=BrudLee]"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings, which thinks that nothing is worth war, is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing, which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than him." -- John Stewart Mill (1806-1873)

RIP[/QUOTE]

TREMENDOUS Brudlee! Great quote.

Regardless of political beliefs, the mourning is the focus of this day... thoughts with the tillman family.

Yes it's a great quote. Gandhi and MLK certainly were miserable creatures, weren't they? History shows us that you can "fight" for things and win without resorting to violence.

I had no intention of angering those who disagree with the quote (or the quoter). Pat Tillman believed in his course enough to lay down his life for it - as did both Gandhi and MLK. Whether or not anyone here agrees with him, his sacrifice was noble.

[QUOTE=Ghost]Yes it's a great quote. Gandhi and MLK certainly were miserable creatures, weren't they? History shows us that you can "fight" for things and win without resorting to violence.[/QUOTE]

What is it about the word FIGHT, you don't understand?

miserable creature's huh, I guess we might as well throw George Washington, abraham lincoln, franklin roosevelt, and IKE, in there as well.

My heart goes out to the Tillman's who raised such courageous children, with such conviction for thier country!!!!!!!!!

I agree that his sacrifice was noble. He could have taken the easy way out but he didn't. I respect his convictions and his choice. But the quote seems to be saying that you're weak unless you're willing to go to war and I don't think that's true. I was just pointing out that MLK and Gandhi fought and died for what they believed in without using violence and without regard for their personal safety, and I think their sacrifice was just as noble, if not more so, because it's so difficult to stay on the path of nonviolence when people are attacking you. That said, Pat Tillman is a hero and I'm genuinely sad today, though I didn't even know him.

[QUOTE=Ghost]I agree that his sacrifice was noble. He could have taken the easy way out but he didn't. I respect his convictions and his choice. But the quote seems to be saying that you're weak unless you're willing to go to war and I don't think that's true. I was just pointing out that MLK and Gandhi fought for what they believed in without using violence, and I think their sacrifice was just as noble, if not more so, because it's so difficult to stay on the path of nonviolence when people are attacking you. That said, Pat Tillman is a hero and I'm genuinely sad today, though I didn't even know him.[/QUOTE]

OK, but I believe the article's intent is this, not that if a person doesn't go to war makes him horrible, just because a person isn't serving now doesn't mean thier horrible, but the refusal to serve your country when called upon whether it be fighting or support, and still enjoy all the abundance of opportunities that it provides, while someone else does the dirty work, and perhap's give's his life so you can enjoy your freedom's, that's is what the quote is saying.

remember, freedom is not free!

[QUOTE=BrudLee]"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings, which thinks that nothing is worth war, is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing, which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than him." -- John Stewart Mill (1806-1873)
RIP[/QUOTE]

My condolences to Pat Tillman's family and loved ones.
John Stewart Mill (1806-1873) died at the ripe old age of 67. In 1873 that is very old. He never fought in any war.
John Stewart Mill was an intellectual and lived a privileged life. He was educated entirely by his father, James Mill, and was deliberately shielded from association with other boys of his age. At the age of 21 he had a mental breakdown, that was later blamed on his father and the rigid way he brought him up.
It is typical that an intellectual, politician or President that never fought in a war says something like this....and ends up with the power to send people to war to die.
Regardless of the circumstances surrounding any given war.
It is easy for someone that never has been to war to say this .

The best victory is when the opponent surrenders of its own accord before there are any actual hostilities...It is best to win without fighting. --- Sun-tzu

I must say I hope that the Arizona Cardinals remember what a great man and what great services he gave to their team and takes care of his family. I know it's not required, but it would be a nice gesture.

As of Simeon Rice's comments - I seriously doubt they were after this guy died. He has his right to an opinion and I highly doubt Rice would say something of the sort to enflame a mourning family. I'm sure they didn't get along in AZ and he was sick of hearing about him. If his comments were after this tragedy, then fuck him!