Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[B]KB24[/B]I respect what your saying. I really do. All I'm trying to point out as well as several others is that we would only lose one pick this yr. #21. Then we would have 8-9 other picks to find OL,DE,DL,CB,S,WR depth. All we are saying is it's not the end of the world. Depending on how CJ does this yr yes it could turn out to be a 1st next yr. but I'm betting for them to get the 1st round pick we would have to go pretty far in the playoffs. Probably why Cincy said no go.

It's just frustrating to hear people say CJ is not worth that much when he was like the #3 WR of all last yr and in the top 10 for how many yrs? He's also a pro bowl player...you don't get there by being a problem or having good looks or good character. It's all about his play. It's also disheartening to hear about his character issues. Maybe he did punch a coach maybe he didn't. I was not there. Something happened. On the Riggo show yesterday they spoke with a Cincy sports reporter and he said he has not gotten a clear answer on that either but something did happen. If nothing else pushing and shoving, but he said it appearently was no big deal to the team. Not worthy of kicking him off a team, however he has heard nothing but fans shocked that Cincy would not take the deal. They would get another 1st rounder and knowing CJ would put up the numbers they might get the 1st next also.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[quote=over the mountain;442442]sorry, after june the bengals would be more willing to trade not april , you are correct. but cant the bengals designate him now as a june 1 cut and prorate it or do they have to wait till June?[/quote]

They don't have to wait, all they have to do is designate him as a June 1 move like we did with Lloyd. But then again I'm not sure exactly if that only applies to releasing players, not trading them.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[QUOTE=over the mountain;442441]since 2000, what perennial top-5 in his position pro-bowler have the skins acquired?

portis is the only one i think you can put in that category and thats a bit of a stretch. the fact that we gave big time money to could be good players in lloyd n arch (admitted mistakes) shouldnt keep us from not giving big time money for a big time player. [B]im just confused on what "big stars" weve acquired since 2000 that your referring to[/B]. its not the money the skins were spending that was our problem but the overpaying for mediocre talent that we got in return imo.

sorry for the double post.[/QUOTE]

LaVar Arrington, Bruce Smith, Mark Carrier, Jeff George (GAG!), Deion Sanders (DOUBLE-GAG!), Laveranus Coles, Santana Moss, Joe Morton and Brandon Lloyd are the ones who come to my mind. Snyder even wanted Ted Ginn, Jr., until Gregg Williams sold him on LaRon Landry.

[QUOTE=SBXVII;442444][B]KB24[/B]I respect what your saying. I really do. All I'm trying to point out as well as several others is that we would only lose one pick this yr. #21. Then we would have 8-9 other picks to find OL,DE,DL,CB,S,WR depth. All we are saying is it's not the end of the world. Depending on how CJ does this yr yes it could turn out to be a 1st next yr. but I'm betting for them to get the 1st round pick we would have to go pretty far in the playoffs. Probably why Cincy said no go.

It's just frustrating to hear people say CJ is not worth that much when he was like the #3 WR of all last yr and in the top 10 for how many yrs? He's also a pro bowl player...you don't get there by being a problem or having good looks or good character. It's all about his play. It's also disheartening to hear about his character issues. Maybe he did punch a coach maybe he didn't. I was not there. Something happened. On the Riggo show yesterday they spoke with a Cincy sports reporter and he said he has not gotten a clear answer on that either but something did happen. If nothing else pushing and shoving, but he said it appearently was no big deal to the team. Not worthy of kicking him off a team, however he has heard nothing but fans shocked that Cincy would not take the deal. They would get another 1st rounder and knowing CJ would put up the numbers they might get the 1st next also.[/QUOTE]

I guess I'm just hesitant to make another trade like this for a "superstar" when that strategy in the past hasn't gotten us to the next level. And I just wonder whether it's smart to sink everything as much as we are trying to into him when he may not be able to get us to that level by himself. That's where I'm coming from with all this.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[B]Johnson suitors lining up[/B]

[B]Chad Johnson[/B] | [URL="http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/clubhouse?team=cin"][COLOR=#000000]Bengals[/COLOR][/URL] | Interested: [URL="http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/clubhouse?team=was"][COLOR=#000000]Redskins[/COLOR][/URL]? [URL="http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/clubhouse?team=oak"][COLOR=#000000]Raiders[/COLOR][/URL]? [URL="http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/clubhouse?team=phi"][COLOR=#000000]Eagles[/COLOR][/URL]? [URL="http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/clubhouse?team=dal"][COLOR=#000000]Cowboys[/COLOR][/URL]?
[I]The Redskins' trade offer for Johnson (this year's first-round pick and a conditional third-rounder in 2009) could open the floodgates for more to come, writes James Walker. [/I]

[I]The Bengals have been steadfast in saying they won't trade the disgruntled wide receiver, but expect more teams to follow Washington's lead and tempt Cincinnati to pull the trigger. [/I]
[I]ESPN's Chris Mortensen reported that the Eagles and Cowboys have made brief inquires into Johnson's availability. Perhaps they will be the next in line to put together offers comparable or better than the one made by their division rival. [/I]

This seems very sketchy to me. No team wants CJ more then the Skins' and I doubt anyteam is willing to ante up as much as the Redskins are to get CJ. The Cowboys could do it, but as I pointed out before, Mike Brown turned down 3 first round picks, 1 second, 1 third, and other picks all so he could draft Akili Smith. The guys an idiot.

[URL="http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/chickludwig/entries/2008/04/23/rejecting_chad_trade_really_no.html"]Rejecting Chad trade really no surprise | Chick Ludwig At Large[/URL]

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[quote=KB24;442457]LaVar Arrington, Bruce Smith, Mark Carrier, Jeff George (GAG!), Deion Sanders (DOUBLE-GAG!), Laveranus Coles, Santana Moss, Joe Morton and Brandon Lloyd are the ones who come to my mind. Snyder even wanted Ted Ginn, Jr., until Gregg Williams sold him on LaRon Landry.

I guess I'm just hesitant to make another trade like this for a "superstar" when that strategy in the past hasn't gotten us to the next level. And I just wonder whether it's smart to sink everything as much as we are trying to into him when he may not be able to get us to that level by himself. That's where I'm coming from with all this.[/quote]

Here, though, you mistake acquiring a 'big name' with acquiring a 'big talent'. The question posed by OTM was not what big splashes have the Redskins made in FA/Trades since 2000, those are well documented, but rather "what perennial Pro Bowler, Top Five at his position players have the acquired. In you're answer you are all over the board.

LaVar Arrington was a draft pick not a FA pick/trade so right there he does not fit the model (in fact, if you want to call him a failed move - which I might question - then it actually goes against your argument and suggests a proven player is better than the unknown quantity you get with even a top five draft pick). Nonetheless, until he got into the Gibbs/Williams doghouse he was an explosive player, fan favorite, and made multiple Pro Bowl appearances.

Smith, Carrier, George, and Sanders were all part of the 2000 binge and clearly not front line players any longer. Some had been Pro Bowl talent, but all were aging players - and despite the 'ageism' leveled against Johnson he clearly does not fit this mold.

Coles was a solid player, but clearly not at the level of Johnson. He did have a very good first year with the Skins and made a Pro Bowl appearance before this got ugly. We then traded him back to NYJ for Santana Moss and I don't know why Moss gets tossed in here with the others, I think he has been pretty successful in Washington quite frankly.

Chad Morton was a kick returner who the Skins overpaid for, but again you miss the point that OTM was making saying that the Skins have not acquired any players of Johnson's ilk through trade apart from Portis. That certainly includes Brandon Lloyd who many had reservations about even before he was brought in here ... to compare Johnson to Lloyd in terms of talent stretches the limits of credulity. Clearly you would agree, but that was precisely the point OTM (and others) have made. The people you reference (save Moss and Arrington who don't fit the model) were failures of talent evaluation. The fact that trades were involved was not the reason they were failures. They were failures because they were not elite NFL talents. Clearly Johnson does not fit that description.

And I'm not saying the Redskins NEED Chad Johnson. There are arguments against such a move (including the fact that the Bengals don't seem interested). At times you make reference to some of these reasons. But then at other times you get off on illogical tangents that confuse the issue rather than adding clarity.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[QUOTE=SC Skins Fan;442480]Here, though, you mistake acquiring a 'big name' with acquiring a 'big talent'. The question posed by OTM was not what big splashes have the Redskins made in FA/Trades since 2000, those are well documented, but rather "what perennial Pro Bowler, Top Five at his position players have the acquired. In you're answer you are all over the board.

LaVar Arrington was a draft pick not a FA pick and until he got into the Gibbs/Williams doghouse he was an explosive player, fan favorite, and made multiple Pro Bowl appearances.

Smith, Carrier, George, and Sanders were all part of the 2000 binge and clearly not front line players any longer. Some had been Pro Bowl talent, but all were aging players - and despite the 'ageism' leveled against Johnson he clearly does not fit this mold.

Coles was a solid player, but clearly not at the level of Johnson. He did have a very good first year with the Skins and made a Pro Bowl appearance before this got ugly. We then traded him back to NYJ for Santana Moss and I don't know why Moss gets tossed in here with the others, I think he has been pretty successful in Washington quite frankly.

Chad Morton was a kick returner who the Skins overpaid for, but again you miss the point that OTM was making saying that the Skins have not acquired any players of Johnson's ilk through trade apart from Portis. That certainly includes Brandon Lloyd who many had reservations about even before he was brought in here ... to compare Johnson to Lloyd in terms of talent stretches the limits of credulity. Clearly you would agree, but that was precisely the point OTM (and others) have made. The people you reference (save Moss and Arrington who don't fit the model) were failures of talent evaluation. The fact that trades were involved was not the reason they were failures. They were failures because they were not elite NFL talents. Clearly Johnson does not fit that description.[/QUOTE]

I see your point. I guess the past experiences have made me question the motivation of deals such as this one. I'd just like to see us try to groom our own talent and draft wisely for once like we did in the past.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[quote=KB24;442457][B]LaVar Arrington, Bruce Smith, Mark Carrier, Jeff George (GAG!), Deion Sanders (DOUBLE-GAG!), Laveranus Coles, Santana Moss, Joe Morton and Brandon Lloyd[/B] are the ones who come to my mind. Snyder even wanted Ted Ginn, Jr., until Gregg Williams sold him on LaRon Landry.



I guess I'm just hesitant to make another trade like this for a "superstar" when that strategy in the past hasn't gotten us to the next level. And I just wonder whether it's smart to sink everything as much as we are trying to into him when he may not be able to get us to that level by himself. That's where I'm coming from with all this.[/quote]

lol, jeff george (we should have stayed with BJ) and bruce smith were FA signings we got at the end of their careers. coles had a bad heal but a good career with us till we traded him for moss who happened to set the skins season rec yds record and we drafted lavar!! none of those players at the time we got them are anywhere near the production level of a 30 yr old CJ nor did they cost us all our draft picks. im surprised you left duckett out too.

My point is we havent traded or signed a true superstar like CJ since CP (who set the skins season rushing record). comparing CJ to the likes of lloyd and jeff george is ridiculus imo.

go skins!

KB - i think what your trying to say is that instead of throwing big money at CJ now and handcuffing our abilities to add elite talent in the future, we should hold onto some loose cash for a year or two when the team will be 1 superstar signing away from being a SB contender then go after that 1 missing piece? makes sense and i concur.:food-smil

go skins!

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

I'm starting to believe this might not happen at all simply because Mike Brown is a stubborn a-hole lol, that story about him refusing all those picks so he could draft Akili Smith is very convincing. If CJ isn't traded at all then we should move on.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[QUOTE=over the mountain;442486]lol, jeff george (we should have stayed with BJ) and bruce smith were FA signings we got at the end of their careers. coles had a bad heal but a good career with us till we traded him for moss who happened to set the skins season rec yds record and we drafted lavar!! none of those players at the time we got them are anywhere near the production level of a 30 yr old CJ nor did they cost us all our draft picks. im surprised you left duckett out too.

My point is we havent traded or signed a true superstar like CJ since CP (who set the skins season rushing record). comparing CJ to the likes of lloyd and jeff george is ridiculus imo.

go skins!

[B]KB - i think what your trying to say is that instead of throwing big money at CJ now and handcuffing our abilities to add elite talent in the future, we should hold onto some loose cash for a year or two when the team will be 1 superstar signing away from being a SB contender then go after that 1 missing piece? makes sense and i concur.:food-smil

go skins[/B]![/QUOTE]

Thanks. That is what I was trying to say. We've been making trades and spending wildly in free agency for too long with very little in the way of championship-like results. I think two VERY GOOD drafts will get us to a point where we can acquire that big superstar as the last piece.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[quote=KB24;442498]Thanks. That is what I was trying to say. We've been making trades and spending wildly in free agency for too long with very little in the way of championship-like results. I think two VERY GOOD drafts will get us to a point where we can acquire that big superstar as the last piece.[/quote]

I understand your thinking but I still think you have to find a balance between the draft, free agency, and trades.

Is it too crazy to think that maybe the Skins are already close to being a contender in the NFC? I mean it's not like we're coming off a miserable season.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[QUOTE=SBXVII;442358]I'm lost.....CJ had better production then both of those....have you looked at NFL.COM's 2007 WR ranking list? CJ came in #3. The two WR in front of him were Reggie Wayne and Randy Moss. Fitz came in #4 and Edwards cam in #7. So I guess production is out you must be talking about [B]youth[/B].

We won't get the #1 WR. He will probably start on a team who needs a WR. We may get lucky enough to get the #3-#4 on the list. I doubt the WR at 3 or 4 will start immediatly. Unless he is so much better then Moss, Randel El, Thrash. He will have so much to learn on this team from the plays to the blocking schemes to the NFL speed. Something CJ already knows and only has to learn the play calls.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I am talking about youth. Two number one picks is the ultimate price to pay in an NFL trade. While the WR's you mentioned are great they are also too old to pay two #1 picks for them. I mentioned Fitz and Edwards because IMO they have a combination of YOUTH and production that would be worth multiple #1 picks.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[QUOTE=SC Skins Fan;442348]I'm starting to swing towards it being too steep a price, but there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY for you to say that "the conditions that will turn this into a #1 pick next year are very attainable for him" because no one knows what those conditions are except for the Redskins and Bengals. I sure haven't heard details. If you know something let us know.[/QUOTE]

ESPN reported that it was based on his # of catches next season...it was something like 65 catches would turn it into a #2 pick and 95 catches would make it a #1 pick.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[quote=KB24;442498]Thanks. That is what I was trying to say. We've been making trades and spending wildly in free agency for too long with very little in the way of championship-like results. I think two VERY GOOD drafts will get us to a point where we can acquire that big superstar as the last piece.[/quote]


Ain't that the truth.

I'd even like three whole drafts in which we have all our picks and use them on emerging talent, it's not like we can't sign UFA's also. After that we can take all the risks we want in the way of slinging draft picks around for big name veterans. We're just not at a point we can assume the risk that dominant teams have in the NFL.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[quote=celts32;442514]ESPN reported that it was based on his # of catches next season...it was something like 65 catches would turn it into a #2 pick and 95 catches would make it a #1 pick.[/quote]

I haven't heard that.

There were team based triggers that would need to be met too though.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[quote=Skinny Tee;442517]Ain't that the truth.

I'd even like three whole drafts in which we have all our picks and use them on emerging talent, it's not like we can't sign UFA's also. After that we can take all the risks we want in the way of slinging draft picks around for big name veterans. We're just not at a point we can assume the risk that dominant teams have in the NFL.[/quote]

in 3 years our Oline will officially be old and those guys are our cornerstone so if you want to wait 3 years you'd better have a plan to replace most of the Oline aswell. you dont find a samuels, thomas, rabach, jansen group whose played together this long too often. we are blessed to have them.