I agree that his sacrifice was noble. He could have taken the easy way out but he didn't. I respect his convictions and his choice. But the quote seems to be saying that you're weak unless you're willing to go to war and I don't think that's true. I was just pointing out that MLK and Gandhi fought and died for what they believed in without using violence and without regard for their personal safety, and I think their sacrifice was just as noble, if not more so, because it's so difficult to stay on the path of nonviolence when people are attacking you. That said, Pat Tillman is a hero and I'm genuinely sad today, though I didn't even know him.

[QUOTE=Ghost]I agree that his sacrifice was noble. He could have taken the easy way out but he didn't. I respect his convictions and his choice. But the quote seems to be saying that you're weak unless you're willing to go to war and I don't think that's true. I was just pointing out that MLK and Gandhi fought for what they believed in without using violence, and I think their sacrifice was just as noble, if not more so, because it's so difficult to stay on the path of nonviolence when people are attacking you. That said, Pat Tillman is a hero and I'm genuinely sad today, though I didn't even know him.[/QUOTE]

OK, but I believe the article's intent is this, not that if a person doesn't go to war makes him horrible, just because a person isn't serving now doesn't mean thier horrible, but the refusal to serve your country when called upon whether it be fighting or support, and still enjoy all the abundance of opportunities that it provides, while someone else does the dirty work, and perhap's give's his life so you can enjoy your freedom's, that's is what the quote is saying.

remember, freedom is not free!

[QUOTE=BrudLee]"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings, which thinks that nothing is worth war, is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing, which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than him." -- John Stewart Mill (1806-1873)
RIP[/QUOTE]

My condolences to Pat Tillman's family and loved ones.
John Stewart Mill (1806-1873) died at the ripe old age of 67. In 1873 that is very old. He never fought in any war.
John Stewart Mill was an intellectual and lived a privileged life. He was educated entirely by his father, James Mill, and was deliberately shielded from association with other boys of his age. At the age of 21 he had a mental breakdown, that was later blamed on his father and the rigid way he brought him up.
It is typical that an intellectual, politician or President that never fought in a war says something like this....and ends up with the power to send people to war to die.
Regardless of the circumstances surrounding any given war.
It is easy for someone that never has been to war to say this .

The best victory is when the opponent surrenders of its own accord before there are any actual hostilities...It is best to win without fighting. --- Sun-tzu

I must say I hope that the Arizona Cardinals remember what a great man and what great services he gave to their team and takes care of his family. I know it's not required, but it would be a nice gesture.

As of Simeon Rice's comments - I seriously doubt they were after this guy died. He has his right to an opinion and I highly doubt Rice would say something of the sort to enflame a mourning family. I'm sure they didn't get along in AZ and he was sick of hearing about him. If his comments were after this tragedy, then fuck him!

Tillman is a great hero. He really speaks to what makes this country great. He could have had a plush life with a fat contract in the NFL, and instead he gave the ultimate sacrifice for our country.

We are all in his debt, as well as to the other courageous men and women who defend this country.

Like most of you when I saw the news on Pat Tilman's death today I was upset by it. I think we can all appreciate his love of country and his desire to be part of something far greater than himself.

I know there are a few others that post here often like me that are in the military. We all know of the possiblility that this may happen to us but it is an accepted part of life. I ask that we all take pause to reflect on the sacrifices being made everyday by our brothers and sisters fighting "over there."

Oh, one last thing... I believe the quote listed below rings true -- especially today...

Gentlemen,

This thread started as tribute to a man who measured courage and conviction in much different way than most. Please let it remain so. Enough on the virtues of war and peace. Daseal, Ghost, SkinsFan and I are having a most interesting discussion on these issues in the Parking Lot, check out our threads there and comment appropriately.

In this thread, can we simply remember a man who laid his life down for his convictions and offer support to his family.

Thank you.

I agree JoeRedskin, well said.

great find DBB with the petion. I agree with matty and joe, we need to leave our personal beliefs on the war out of this and just pay our respects to Mr. Tillman and our other fallen countrymen and women.

I also don't know about the rest of you, but I agree with the idea spoken about on "around the horn" on espn, of Tillman getting an honorary induction into the hall of fame for his selfless courage and sacrifice.

Right on, JoeRedskin. My views can be seen there, but a man died. I don't think anyone lacks respect for the service he paid to our country, which everyone is in debt for.

RIP

Disgusting

[url]http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?cgiurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Fws%2F&krd=1&from=R8&MfcISAPICommand=GetResult&ht=1&SortProperty=MetaEndSort&query=pat+tillman[/url]

People are unbelivable. People profiting off this kids death, its freaking rediculous.

Can't say I'm surprised. I remember after 9-11 people were hawking all sorts of stuff. Sad.

Human nature. Can't wait for the draft tomorrow ... this is one of my favorite days of the year. I just wish we had more picks.

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Disgusting

[url]http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?cgiurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Fws%2F&krd=1&from=R8&MfcISAPICommand=GetResult&ht=1&SortProperty=MetaEndSort&query=pat+tillman[/url][/QUOTE]

not only is it disgusting that those things r up for auction but also that people r bidding on them. and did i see correctly that one of the items has a bid of 40,000 dollars?

Unfortunately, dignity is not for sale on ebay. If it were, there would clearly be a number of interested buyers.

That petition was an excellent find. if anybody hasn't signed it, they should. Hopefully his family and friends will read some of the inspiring comments made.

I saw the ESPN thing on Tillman,his wife and family. Wow!!! I would like to say thank Mr. Tillman for looking out for us all!!! I have family in the middle east in the Army Rangers and we as a family know all to well we to could get the dad news the Tillman's got. My prays are with thier family and all the brave men and women over fighting for our country. No matter how you feel about what is going on over there. When it is all said and done it is each person and thier family that pays the cost!!! If 9/11 said anything it was we can not put our head in the sand and hope this will go away. Thank you Mr Tillman for you watch!!!

Arizona shows some class. Just check out their web site now.
[url]http://www.azcardinals.com/[/url]

peace

[QUOTE=Sammy Baugh Fan]Arizona shows some class. Just check out their web site now.
[url]http://www.azcardinals.com/[/url]

peace[/QUOTE]

I know it's a small thing in the face of a large tragedy, but I'm gratified that the Cardinals are embracing former players and coaches during this time. Not many organizations would have statements from players they traded, and coaches they let go. It is a testament to their feelings about this man.

The Cardinals are retiring his # and Arizona St. is doing the same.

Tillman Bros
 

ARMY RANGER BROS

The two made quite a sacrifice
By joining the Army’s elite
The motto, "Rangers Lead The Way"
Now, for one is bittersweet.

They both walked from professions
And put it All on the front line
To do their Duty to their Country
For, Freedoms of yours and mine.

He lost his Brother to the enemy
In an ambush firefight
The Ranger Creed is what He lived by
And He believed in what was Right.

He said, his Grandpa was at "Pearl"
But, felt He hadn’t done His part
So, after Nine Eleven
He knew what to do, down in His heart.

He made the Sacrifice, Supreme
And He surely gave His all
And in that Army, up in Heaven
You can bet He’s standing Proud and Tall.

Del "Abe" Jones
24 April 2004

That's beautiful, Abe. Thanks for your contribution-- an excellent first post!

Welcome to The Warpath!

I know this is gonna be up for debate but, I heard rumors that maybe they might induct Tillman into the hall of fame. Not as a player, but as " a person ". What does everyone think of the idea? I would be for it, for sure. I'm glad Arizona and the NFL has shown so much class thusfar in dealing with this situation. RIP Pat

[QUOTE=Gmanc711]I know this is gonna be up for debate but, I heard rumors that maybe they might induct Tillman into the hall of fame. Not as a player, but as " a person ". What does everyone think of the idea? I would be for it, for sure. I'm glad Arizona and the NFL has shown so much class thusfar in dealing with this situation. RIP Pat[/QUOTE]

I'd have absolutely no complaints about this. The man gave up everything for what he felt was his duty. Other organizations give honorary inductions to far less deserving people so how could this be a bad thing or wrong to do?

[QUOTE=smootsmack]This is very sad indeed.

It's time like these that we should remember to thank BleedBurgundy and any other Warpathers who are serving or have served overseas for us[/QUOTE]


For whatever small amount it's worth...

As a servicemember who was serving during Sept. 11th, I was impressed, if that's even the right word, when Pat decided to join up.
I actually started to tear up yesterday when I heard that he'd been killed. What an amazing american. His sacrifice was no greater than the many other men and women who have given their lives for our great nation, but the fact that he was willing to give up fame and fortune to serve was a reminder that debate about the validity of the conflicts we are currently engaged in is just Free Speech, the right to which is provided by the blood of heroes like Pat Tillman.

I don't believe the earlier quotes and comments were meant as an indictment of anyone not serving, merely as an appreciation of those who do.

I am grateful for people like Pat Tillman and I will keep him, his family and his brother, who is still fighting, in my thoughts and prayers.