Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;743656]Okay. But what if Joe had never played for Bill Walsh? What if, instead of lasting to the 3rd Round and being drafted after the likes of Jack Thompson or Steve Fuller, he went to Kansas City or Cincinnati? Would he have still won those SB's?

Great QB's are a mix of skill and opportunity. Quite frankly, w/out Bill Walsh, I think Montana is a great QB who probably would not have been as good as he was with Walsh.[/quote]

Funny thing is, think what he could have done with Gibbs. I think he could have won more SB with the skins than the 49ers. Think of the Schroeder and early Rypien years.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;743659]Funny thing is, think what he could have done with Gibbs. I think he could have won more SB with the skins than the 49ers. Think of the Schroeder and early Rypien years.[/quote]

Montana was not a Gibbs type of QB but I'm sure Joe would've adjusted.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

[quote=skinsfan69;743662]Montana was not a Gibbs type of QB but I'm sure Joe would've adjusted.[/quote]

Just like Joey T.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

[quote=CultBrennan59;743564]Is Brady good? Yes. Is he the best ever? No.
Would I put Brady in the top 5 QB's today? No.
1) Manning
2) Brees
3) Rodgers
4) Rivers
5) Schaub

Sure, if I add up all these QB's SB rings, Brady still has 1 more than all them put together, but you have to realize, NE's Defense was a major reason why they won super bowls, and Oh yeah, if Vinitari isn't there Tom Brady has 1 super bowl ring. I personally thought that he's overrated, I started to appreciate him more, but he wins because of his defense, and his coaching, playing with a bunch of veterans. Look at them now, without all the vets on defense, there just ok.[/quote]

No way, Brady immediately behind Manning. Schaub is better than Rivers too.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;743656]Okay. But what if Joe had never played for Bill Walsh? What if, instead of lasting to the 3rd Round and being drafted after the likes of Jack Thompson or Steve Fuller, he went to Kansas City or Cincinnati? Would he have still won those SB's?

Great QB's are a mix of skill and opportunity. Quite frankly, w/out Bill Walsh, I think Montana is a great QB who probably would not have been as good as he was with Walsh.[/quote]

I think Montana would have had a great career no matter where he went. Maybe not as many Super Bowl rings, maybe more Super Bowl rings? It's the age old debate that we have had on here for years, does the coach make the team better, or does the players make the coach better? I think it's a little bit of both, and I think Montana was special.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;743656]Okay. But what if Joe had never played for Bill Walsh? What if, instead of lasting to the 3rd Round and being drafted after the likes of Jack Thompson or Steve Fuller, he went to Kansas City or Cincinnati? Would he have still won those SB's?

Great QB's are a mix of skill and opportunity. Quite frankly, w/out Bill Walsh, I think Montana is a great QB who probably would not have been as good as he was with Walsh.[/quote]Same can be said about Brady playing for Belicheat with Charlie Weis as OC at the beginning of Brady's run. Montana's greatness was his performance in the clutch with the game on the line. Montana to Clark to beat Dallas in the NFC Championship - iconic moment [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-LmPFHgE3k&feature=related"]YouTube - Montana to Clark - The Catch[/ame] Driving 92 yards in under 3 minutes to win Super Bowl XXIII - iconic drive [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Kj_GLEGgsk"]YouTube - Joe Montana leads the 49ers to victory in Super Bowl XXIII[/ame] Brady has won 3 Super Bowls, and had clutch drives to set up game winning FGs in two of those, but I wouldn't say that he's had any iconic moments that will live on in football lore like Joe Cool's.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

Two words.
Sammy Baugh.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

And don't forget about Brees. Only 8-8 without a decent defense.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

[quote=SirClintonPortis;743723]And don't forget about Brees. Only 8-8 without a decent defense.[/quote]

Brees is good but not in Manning or Brady's class yet

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;743740]Brees is good but not in Manning or Brady's class yet[/quote]

In terms of what. Accolades? Brees has at least a couple: he almost broke Marino's single season record and he played a huge role in having the Saints win the Super Bowl.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;743740]Brees is good but not in Manning or Brady's class yet[/quote]

His story is as great as Brady's. He was picked in the second, did so so, but never great, kinda like campbell for us, then the chargers went out and drafted philip rivers, brees got the message and got comeback player of the year. He went out the next year in his contract year, did great, then completely screwed up his shoulder. That freaked the chargers out, they didn't re-sign him. At that point he went from very attractive free agent to not attractive free agent. Only two teams wanted him, Miami and New Orleans. He went to New Orleans with their whole Katrina thing, and him and Sean Payton turned the saints around they made the playoffs in their first year together, then a couple of years later..well we all know what happened then...Super Bowl!

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

I'd take Peyton every day of the week. Brady is a total fag

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

[quote=Mattyk;743446]So you're going to disregard all of his other stats and accomplishments because of turnovers?

Favre's INT% isn't that crazy. 3.3%.

Here are some others:

Marino: 3.0
Elway: 3.1
P. Manning: 2.7[/quote]
410

Favre has done a lot, but I still consider guys like Elway, Montana, and even Young better than him.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

[quote=SirClintonPortis;743744]In terms of what. Accolades? Brees has at least a couple: he almost broke Marino's single season record and he played a huge role in having the Saints win the Super Bowl.[/quote]

One SB doesn't mean a damn thing, plus the team this season looks like it has gone down half a notch in terms of performance. IF the Saints repeat, your boy is up there, but if the Vikes land Moss, they will be the favs in the NFC.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

[quote=SouperMeister;743712][B]Same can be said about Brady playing for Belicheat with Charlie Weis as OC at the beginning of Brady's run.[/B] Montana's greatness was his performance in the clutch with the game on the line.

Montana to Clark to beat Dallas in the NFC Championship - iconic moment

Driving 92 yards in under 3 minutes to win Super Bowl XXIII - iconic drive

Brady has won 3 Super Bowls, and had clutch drives to set up game winning FGs in two of those, but I wouldn't say that he's had any iconic moments that will live on in football lore like Joe Cool's.[/quote]

Well, that was my point. Great QB's playing for the innovative coaches. In fact, the iconic moment you chose is the result of a play designed by Paul Brown and that was a staple of Walsh's West Coast Offense - the Sprint Right Option. The iconic drive was classic WCO - short quick, precision passsing. Montana worked it to perfection. W/out a [I]team[/I] schooled in the WCO (receivers and blockers) that drive doesnt happen.

Don't get me wrong, Joe was the maestro, but w/out Walsh, does either "The Catch" or "The Drive" happen? I think not.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

[quote=tootergray34;743773]I'd take Peyton every day of the week. Brady is a total fag[/quote]

Hell of an argument there.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

[quote=tootergray34;743773]I'd take Peyton every day of the week. Brady is a total fag[/quote]

Really. So we censor words like **** and **** but *** is allowed? What the ****?

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

[quote=GusFrerotte;743780]410

Favre has done a lot, but I still consider guys like Elway, Montana, and even Young better than him.[/quote]

What's 410?

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

[quote=tootergray34;743773]I'd take Peyton every day of the week. Brady is a total fag[/quote]

I'd take Peyton, too. But it is really out-of-place to call a guy who is married to a supermodel a "fag."

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;743799]Well, that was my point. Great QB's playing for the innovative coaches. In fact, the iconic moment you chose is the result of a play designed by Paul Brown and that was a staple of Walsh's West Coast Offense - the Sprint Right Option. The iconic drive was classic WCO - short quick, precision passsing. Montana worked it to perfection. W/out a [I]team[/I] schooled in the WCO (receivers and blockers) that drive doesnt happen.

Don't get me wrong, Joe was the maestro, but w/out Walsh, does either "The Catch" or "The Drive" happen? I think not.[/quote]You're giving Montana and Clark too little credit for making a great play. Montana was under extreme duress, holding the ball to the last instant as Too Tall Jones converged and throwing off balance, while Clark made a tremendous catch. As for "The Drive", Montana did convert a 2nd and 20 with a great throw to Rice. The clincher to Taylor was also a great pass. For my money, Montana was the greatest and most clutch QB ever, especially in the biggest games.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;743806]Really. So we censor words like **** and **** but *** is allowed? What the ****?[/quote]

Sucks that we should have to censor anything really.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

[quote=GusFrerotte;743781]One SB doesn't mean a damn thing, plus the team this season looks like it has gone down half a notch in terms of performance. IF the Saints repeat, your boy is up there, but if the Vikes land Moss, they will be the favs in the NFC.[/quote]

Ahh, the team may be back to an 8-8 level. But we're talking about the QB here. What's wrong with Brees? Degradation in his release, accuracy, dropback, what exactly?

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

Brees is a stud. End of discussion.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

I think I'm going to put Brady over Manning when its all said and done. What he did last night was ridiculous.. Brady makes NO NAME guys into star players.. Welker, Branch, Woodhead ETC.. Against a team that played him very well earlier in the season and supposedly "Had his number" Brady exploded going 21-29 326YDS and 4 TDs. The guy is as good as any to play the game imo

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;766637]I think I'm going to put Brady over Manning when its all said and done. What he did last night was ridiculous.. Brady makes NO NAME guys into star players.. Welker, Branch, Woodhead ETC.. Against a team that played him very well earlier in the season and supposedly "Had his number" Brady exploded going 21-29 326YDS and 4 TDs. The guy is as good as any to play the game imo[/quote]

Simply because player has no name doesn't mean he mediocre or bad. Our own Lorzeno would be a "no name" guy to a lot of people, but we know that he contributes plenty to our team.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

[quote=SirClintonPortis;766656]Simply because player has no name doesn't mean he mediocre or bad. Our own Lorzeno would be a "no name" guy to a lot of people, but we know that he contributes plenty to our team.[/quote]

Yea but Brady does it with Key positions on Offense, he's always had a good OL but the guy just WINS.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

Also no one should forget that Brady still plays at a high level in bad weather.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

I still say

Manning 1a
Brady 1b

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

[quote=Mattyk;766808]I still say

Manning 1a
Brady 1b[/quote]Montana circa 1989 trumps both. Between '88-'90 he played in 8 post-season games, with a TD-INT ratio of 22-2 and QB ratings of 100 or greater [I]in all 8 games[/I], probably the greatest run of post-season quarterbacking excellence ever.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;743387]I hate the term "best ever". None of us ever saw Sammy Baugh play, some saw Johnny Unitas, Bart Starr, YA Tittle, etc. unfortunately everything revolves around stats. Game has evolved and changed.

Maybe best of his generation i would say.[/quote]

I agree......For some reason someone always seems to feel the need to stake claim to the "best ever doctrine". I'll never buy into it because I've had the pleasure of watching many of the greatest at every position that ever played the game. And yes! SF I saw Baugh, Unitas , Starr, Tittle, Dawson, Lamonica, Graham and others. Brady, Manning Marino, and Montana are more in tune with the younger generations way of comprehension. Each and every one of these QB's could make a legitimate claim for being among the best of their generation, and it's not all based on statistics.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

This Thread reminds me of:


[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2onqlccvrRg]YouTube - Coming to America barber shop.wmv[/url]

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

Not arguing a point here, just presenting evidences of two guys who play in the same era who look remarkably identical from a stats persepective:

[url=http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BreeDr00.htm]Drew Brees NFL & AFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com[/url]

[url=http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BradTo00.htm]Tom Brady NFL & AFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com[/url]

I actually am going to argue a point: if one of these guys should go into the hall, the other almost certainly has to go in. There's no real grounds for drawing a line in the sand and saying "this many super bowl rings required for inclusion."

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

[quote=SouperMeister;766914]Montana circa 1989 trumps both. Between '88-'90 he played in 8 post-season games, with a TD-INT ratio of 22-2 and QB ratings of 100 or greater [I]in all 8 games[/I], probably the greatest run of post-season quarterbacking excellence ever.[/quote]

Montana was a machine during that run no doubt. He certainly has to be right there at the top of any QB list.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

Keep in mind it's much easier to say someone is the best ever when they're in the middle of a hot streak. Just this time last year people were trying to make a case for Peyton being a better QB than Brady. Now Peyton is on a streak of games with multiple interceptions while Brady is putting together an MVP worthy campaign. Vick is still the better QB this year but Brady has done enough to give people pause.

Anyway point is we won't know until Brady's career is over.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

Manning's OL is in shambles and they have a ton of injuries. He can't do it alone.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;766949]Keep in mind it's much easier to say someone is the best ever when they're in the middle of a hot streak. Just this time last year people were trying to make a case for Peyton being a better QB than Brady. Now Peyton is on a streak of games with multiple interceptions while Brady is putting together an MVP worthy campaign. [B]Vick is still the better QB this year but Brady has done enough to give people pause.[/B]

Anyway point is we won't know until Brady's career is over.[/quote]Wait, am I missing something? Has Vick accomplished something that I'm not aware of?

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

[quote=GTripp0012;766961]Wait, am I missing something? Has Vick accomplished something that I'm not aware of?[/quote]

Talking about the 2010 MVP, not the greatest QB of all time. Hence the "this year" part.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

The one flaw in Mannings game is he can get rattled. There is something about the chargers and ravens scheme that torments him and it's been that way his whole career not just the last year or two. If you can hit Manning, he will start pressing and throw picks.

Montana was at his best against the legendary Bears and Giants defenses of the 80's.
Montana > Brady > Manning

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

[quote=jamf;766974]The one flaw in Mannings game is he can get rattled. There is something about the chargers and ravens scheme that torments him and it's been that way his whole career not just the last year or two. If you can hit Manning, he will start pressing and throw picks.

Montana was at his best against the legendary Bears and Giants defenses of the 80's.
Montana > Brady > Manning[/quote]

They all get rattled from time to time. Some more than others.
Until Manning finally won his singe Sb title, he had the reputation of not being able to win the big big (championship) game. I think to some extent he does tend to force it in big games that they are over matched. He throws interceptions.
In this generation of QB's I tend to favor Brady slightly over Manning.

One thing to keep mind, that tends to piss the younger fans off, is the rule changes created to promote more passing has to be considered.
When Mantana and the older generation QB's played, receivers were not given the free release after 3.5 yards from scrimmage. This is a major consideratinon. as long as the ball was not in the air anyone was fair game.
Also, throw in the excessive roughing the passer rules and today's Qb's have it a little bit easier then yesterdays qb's.

Re: When it's all been said and done.
 

[quote=jamf;766974]The one flaw in Mannings game is he can get rattled. There is something about the chargers and ravens scheme that torments him and it's been that way his whole career not just the last year or two. If you can hit Manning, he will start pressing and throw picks.

Montana was at his best against the legendary Bears and Giants defenses of the 80's.
Montana > Brady > Manning[/quote]

Is there a QB that has ever played the game that doesn't get rattled when facing constant pressure??