Our offense has given up more TD's than our defense.

The line was even worse last year when Ramsey was in.

Also, why is it Portis' fault that Brunell isn't running the passing game effectively? I think the running game hasn't been effective because our passing game is inept. Defenses stack 9 guys in the box because they don't respect Brunell.

Not many backs are going to be successful when you've got 8 or 9 guys in the box on every play blitzing the crap our of us because we can't throw deep.

[QUOTE=DirtBagZ]I knew this was comming. Sorry, but this last loss is all Brunell. And when the fumble for a TD occurred, that was Betts blocking, you cannot blame that one on Portis. Guess you are going to blame Portis, for when he got hit behind the line when Ed Reed came in on the safety blitz too?[/QUOTE]

If Portis worked for you at 250,000 a game what would your response be to him? No. I'm blaming him for his poor execution in reading the defense and hitting the hole hard. His runs are no way near what he did in Denver. Even the sorry ass Giants know that Tiki is carrying there team on offense. Three fumbles have led to 2 TDS from Portis. Brunell has thrown 1 INT this year and the forced fumbles were clearly on the raggedy line.

[QUOTE=SUNRA]You know I've read a lot of threads about Brunells performance instead of looking at the consistent disgusting performance of Portis. The excuses he has made and his failures has seriously damaged the offense because it has made our offense one dimesional. No running game, no passing game. We need a change at the running back position until Portis understands what he's suppose to be doing.[/QUOTE]

couldn't disagree with you more 'Ra. Portis has been thrown into a meat grinder. literally. new system, new oline, new philosophy.

i dont know if you were watching tonight, but what little offense we had was mostly Portis. ground AND air. ALSO. you probably didn't notice we used the I FORMATION this game! Cooley lined up as a fullback to lead block, as is best for what Portis does. now Cooley is a catching TE, and is LEARNING to block, period. much less from the fullback position. even LESS against the Ravens defense! so, we didn't get many yards. but he DID take the initial hit off Portis, and we got NO FUMBLES from the previous week's one back system.

i dont know how anyone can doubt Portis's ability OR heart. in pass protection, he throws himself into EVERY block (and it WORKS). as a short yardage guy, he throws his tiny body into non-existent holes (which obviously doesnt). one thing Portis can't do is gain 50lbs! nor lead block for himself or make holes for himself!!

the offense is broken everywhere, Portis's numbers are a symptom, NOT a cause. now lets get back on topic..

These same wideouts didn't seem to have a huge problem getting open last year. Have you considered that Brunell just isn't reading and throwing well?

[QUOTE=Ramseyfan]The line was even worse last year when Ramsey was in.

Also, why is it Portis' fault that Brunell isn't running the passing game effectively? I think the running game hasn't been effective because our passing game is inept. Defenses stack 9 guys in the box because they don't respect Brunell.

Not many backs are going to be successful when you've got 8 or 9 guys in the box on every play blitzing the crap our of us because we can't throw deep.[/QUOTE]

Eight or nine in the box is what most teams have in the NFL. So what's new? Priest Holmes did it. Lee Suggs did it. You mean to tell me Portis couldn't step it up after all the shit that Ray Lewis was popping ?

[QUOTE=Gmanc711]Heres the agrument I have for not getting it done on the ground. We have no blocking, plain and simple. When theres no blocking on the ground, there are no holes and no yardage. Now while some things are still the fault of Portis/Playcalling, I just couldnt see a play where I could be like... WOW Portis sure messed up on that play.
On the other hand, I just found myself getting pissed at Brunell about 30 times tonight. Now while I'm sure half of those werent his fault, he did f**k up alot. Even though the protection sucked, he still had the chances to plant his feet and get rid of the football... but he didnt. I saw so many opprotunities for Brunell, and just didnt see the same for Portis.[/QUOTE]
My thoughts exactly.

Everyone wants to blame Portis or Brunell, but think about it this way, they're both struggling in fact the entire offense is struggling. Could it be it all starts up front? Could be.

[QUOTE=SUNRA]Brunell has thrown 1 INT this year and the forced fumbles were clearly on the raggedy line.[/QUOTE]

Check that he's thrown 2 INTs (1 for a TD).

Didn't Ramsey play behind a offensive line and backs that were letting guys crunch him on just about every down last year? Besides, Brunell is the mobile guy Ramsey isn't. So shouldn't Brunell be able to move around AND throw? I've seen him move around, I just haven't seen the throwing on the run part yet. If you can't throw on the run, I'm not sure how invaluable his mobility is.

[QUOTE=Ramseyfan]These same wideouts didn't seem to have a huge problem getting open last year. Have you considered that Brunell just isn't reading and throwing well?[/QUOTE]

Oh, yes they did. I don't have to remind you of the sacks from last year. Part of holding on to the ball stems from waiting for the WR's to separate. Coles was hurt most of last year and if it were not McCants we would have looked a lot like this offense.

[QUOTE=SUNRA]Eight or nine in the box is what most teams have in the NFL. So what's new? Priest Holmes did it. Lee Suggs did it. You mean to tell me Portis couldn't step it up after all the shit that Ray Lewis was popping ?[/QUOTE]

Other teams are putting 8 or 9 guys in the box, just not on EVERY down.

Do you believe Brunell is effective? Or is it just that Coles, Garder, the line, Cooley, Portis and everyone else on offense is ineffective? You've said that the line hasn't done its job, Portis deserves to be benched, and the wideouts aren't getting open. BUT, Brunell isn't getting any of the blame.

Some other questions:

#1. Do you really think Portis should be benched?

#2. Do you really think our wideouts aren't getting open?

#3. Do you think our offensive line and blocking backs were much better last year?

#4. Do you think Brunell has been throwing well?

#5. Do you think Brunell is scaring D-backs with his ability to throw deep?

#6. Do you think a QB is capable of making a good offense look bad or vice-versa (i.e. Mike Vick and Chad Pennington)?

[QUOTE=SUNRA]Eight or nine in the box is what most teams have in the NFL. So what's new? Priest Holmes did it. Lee Suggs did it. You mean to tell me Portis couldn't step it up after all the shit that Ray Lewis was popping ?[/QUOTE]

all bigger backs than Portis, with lead blockers and proven olines with schemes that aren't new to them.

[QUOTE=Ramseyfan]Check that he's thrown 2 INTs (1 for a TD).

Didn't Ramsey play behind a offensive line and backs that were letting guys crunch him on just about every down last year? Besides, Brunell is the mobile guy Ramsey isn't. So shouldn't Brunell be able to move around AND throw? I've seen him move around, I just haven't seen the throwing on the run part yet. If you can't throw on the run, I'm not sure how invaluable his mobility is.[/QUOTE]

2 INTS in 5 games by Brunell and Ramsey 3 INTS in one game? Yeah you do the math. We still lose. Bring in Ramsey so all of you can then call for Hasselbeck, and Then Theismann to come back.

[QUOTE=DirtBagZ]I disagree. I am not in the DC area so could not catch any of the post-game, but I can almost guarantee there will be yet another, "Mark played his guts out" from Gibbs.

Gibbs shelters his players, so I would not expect him to call a guy out, but to keep praising Brunell for playing his guts out, is a bit much. Brunell has been instrumental in lossing each of these games.

It is only now after this last debacle, that more people on this forum are begining to call out Brunell. 83 yds passing speaks volumes. As does his constant happy feet, he does not plant and throw.

There was a special on one of the pregame shows a few weeks back highlighting McNabb, who made of point of saying that his improved accuracy was due to better footwork and using his lower body in his throws. If a strong armed quarterback like McNabb has to use his lower body, is anyone going argue that the same does not apply to Brunell?[/QUOTE]
Gibbs didn't come right out and say it after the game, but he did reportedly say he's going to consider some changes. Take it for what it is.

[QUOTE=SUNRA]Oh, yes they did. I don't have to remind you of the sacks from last year. Part of holding on to the ball stems from waiting for the WR's to separate. Coles was hurt most of last year and if it were not McCants we would have looked a lot like this offense.[/QUOTE]

I remember seeing our wideouts open a LOT last year. How many times do you remember seeing Coles open downfield but our QB (Ramsey or Hasselbeck) getting knocked upside the head?

[QUOTE=SUNRA]2 INTS in 5 games by Brunell and Ramsey 3 INTS in one game? Yeah you do the math. We still lose. Bring in Ramsey so all of you can then call for Hasselbeck, and Then Theismann to come back.[/QUOTE]

You're judging Ramsey based on 1 horrible half of play. I'm judging Brunell based on 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 WEEKS (that's 10 halves or crappy play).

Just curious, did you have this same feeling about Ramsey last year? All I hear about is Ramsey's play against the Giants. Last I checked, he's played in about 16 other games as a rookie and 2nd year vet.

[QUOTE=Ramseyfan]You're judging Ramsey based on 1 horrible half of play. I'm judging Brunell based on 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 WEEKS (that's 10 halves or crappy play).

Just curious, did you have this same feeling about Ramsey last year? All I hear about is Ramsey's play against the Giants. Last I checked, he's played in about 16 other games as a rookie and 2nd year vet.[/QUOTE]
It's a different offense now, besides, you can't argue the fact he's regressed over the course of the past year, once he started getting hammered week in and week out his play went in the toilet. He also stunk in the preseason this year. It's not just the Giants game.

its not a question of who's better guys. Brunell isn't good ENOUGH, period. Ramsey is probably worse. even so, he's our future, so its time to "learn" him. Brunell isn't going to get any better from here on out, only worse, so its time to bench him.

I don't think you can say Ramsey has regressed. He's played one half of regular season play. Also, BTW Brunell didn't look good in the preseason.

Matty, when did you change your opinion of Ramsey? I remember you used to be as high on the guy as I was/am.

I love Ramsey, but the truth is after the first 4 games of last year he didn't play well at all the rest of the year and it's carried right over to this year.

He was horrible this preseason, how quickly we forget I guess.

[QUOTE=Ramseyfan]Other teams are putting 8 or 9 guys in the box, just not on EVERY down.

Do you believe Brunell is effective? Or is it just that Coles, Garder, the line, Cooley, Portis and everyone else on offense is ineffective? You've said that the line hasn't done its job, Portis deserves to be benched, and the wideouts aren't getting open. BUT, Brunell isn't getting any of the blame.

Some other questions:

#1. Do you really think Portis should be benched? [b] No, he needs to get some more blocking. Not having 9 men in the box will help. [/b]

#2. Do you really think our wideouts aren't getting open? [b] Hard to say without being at the games or coaches tapes [/b]

#3. Do you think our offensive line and blocking backs were much better last year? [b] No. [/b]

#4. Do you think Brunell has been throwing well? [b] NO! [/b]

#5. Do you think Brunell is scaring D-backs with his ability to throw deep?
[b] I think they are more scared of me throwing deep than Brunell! [/b]

#6. Do you think a QB is capable of making a good offense look bad or vice-versa (i.e. Mike Vick and Chad Pennington)? [b] Without question. The QB determines how a defensive gameplan is implemented. If you don't have to account for the passing game (i.e. Redskins) you can focus everything on stopping the run [/b]
[/QUOTE]

I think we've seen what Brunell can do, and it isn't much.. It's time for him to hold a clipboard. Ramsey has started and won in the league. Now the pressure he was feeling in the pre-season should be minimized since it's not a competition anymore. We need to see if he can cut it or if we need to completely start over at QB..

[QUOTE=Ramseyfan]Other teams are putting 8 or 9 guys in the box, just not on EVERY down.

Do you believe Brunell is effective? Or is it just that Coles, Garder, the line, Cooley, Portis and everyone else on offense is ineffective? You've said that the line hasn't done its job, Portis deserves to be benched, and the wideouts aren't getting open. BUT, Brunell isn't getting any of the blame.

Some other questions:

#1. Do you really think Portis should be benched?

#2. Do you really think our wideouts aren't getting open?

#3. Do you think our offensive line and blocking backs were much better last year?

#4. Do you think Brunell has been throwing well?

#5. Do you think Brunell is scaring D-backs with his ability to throw deep?

#6. Do you think a QB is capable of making a good offense look bad or vice-versa (i.e. Mike Vick and Chad Pennington)?[/QUOTE]

1.Yes, We scrapped our runningbacks for Portis. The real deal is he's doubting himself and the defense's can see it. Most backs get stronger and stronger in the late quarters but Portis is running and falling down with hardly any energy at all.
2.Yes. Look at the passes that were caught and you see 2 defenders on almost every play. Where are the receivers who have one on one coverage on them?
3.No. This line is much better. Injuries to Jansen and Jones has hurt us tremdously. Portis doesn't read the defense well and is thinking too much rather than reacting decisively.
4.Yes. Brunell has had 2 INTs in 5 games. His numbers against Dallas at 325 yds proves he can do it. He is a leader and takes responsibility for every loss we've had this year, when we all know he's not the reason completely.
5.Of course not. Put Portis isn't scaring anybody either. I'm starting to believe the Denver system made him what he was a back.
6.A QB makes an offense look bad when he is unable to run an effecient offense the opportunity comes to make a big play. Brunell made the big play in th first half. Vick and Pennington are QB with a future and younger legs. A veteran QB must be given maximum protection and that's not happening.

[QUOTE=illdefined]all bigger backs than Portis, with lead blockers and proven olines with schemes that aren't new to them.[/QUOTE]

Correct he if I'm wrong. But Portis's size has never been his downfall. What has been his strengths has been his speed and power. Portis is as big as Tiki, Priest or Deshaun Foster. I watch other backs in the league right now like Curtis Martin, Tiki Barber and Holmes and I just shake my head with disbelief that this offensive line could be the main reason for our failures when all of the backs I mentioned have runners who cut back a lot to get the yards they need.

[QUOTE=SUNRA]Correct he if I'm wrong. But Portis's size has never been his downfall. What has been his strengths has been his speed and power. Portis is as big as Tiki, Priest or Deshaun Foster. I watch other backs in the league right now like Curtis Martin, Tiki Barber and Holmes and I just shake my head with disbelief that this offensive line could be the main reason for our failures when all of the backs I mentioned have runners who cut back a lot to get the yards they need.[/QUOTE]
What do all of those backs have? A quarterback who is a threat to the defense. If I was a def. coord. I would put 8 in the box until Brunell beat me deep once, then leave 8 in the box until he proves he can do it again. It's not the line, it's not the system, it's not the scheme, it's the personnel..

In your previous post you said you would bench Portis, for who and for what? What would benching your best offensive player prove? The whole 'system back' thing is a joke. If he was running against linemen and backers instead of linemen, backers and blitzing safeties all game then maybe he could put up some numbers.. Since the Tampa game, what's been the method to stop the Redskins offense? Blitz almost every play. Why? Because we haven't shown an ability to beat it. How many times did Ed Reed come off the corner and stuff the play? I can think of at least 4 off the top of my head, TD included. You have to be able to beat the blitz in the NFL or else you won't move the ball.

[QUOTE=SUNRA]Correct he if I'm wrong. But Portis's size has never been his downfall. What has been his strengths has been his speed and power. Portis is as big as Tiki, Priest or Deshaun Foster. I watch other backs in the league right now like Curtis Martin, Tiki Barber and Holmes and I just shake my head with disbelief that this offensive line could be the main reason for our failures when all of the backs I mentioned have runners who cut back a lot to get the yards they need.[/QUOTE]

man, how LONG have those guys been in their systems? more importantly, how long have their OLINES been in those systems??

Gibbs doesn't WANT his backs cutting back, thats not how he gameplans and im sure Portis has been told not to. this is a huge philosophy change for Portis and a WHOLE new deal for the Oline.

Gibbs had Cooley blocking for Portis in the I formation. thats a change for Portis's style right there. but thats a new position for Cooley too. its gonna take time for the team and the coach to figure it all out, but already things are started to move albeit slowly.

I'm with Paintrain. The reason I think we bring Ramsey in, is to set up Portis. Nobody thinks that Mark Brunell can pass on them, and he is doing a hell of a job of proving the right. Brunell hasent been able to pass on anyone at all this year, except for Dallas for a half quarter. Now Ramsey is going to make stupid mistakes if he plays, I know he will, but he will also make some huge plays that will make teams respect his ability. From there, then we can start giving the ball to Portis and he can start doing what hes supposed to do. Right now no one thinks we can pass the ball more than 7 yards, so they are all playing the run.

I voted "B: Brunell hasn't done much, but enough to remain the starter."

This coming from a guy who loves Ramsey, and thinks Brunell has pretty much sucked thus far. But I'll leave it up to Gibbs to decide.

The fact is there are a lot of things wrong with the offense and I can't tell enough from TV to determine if they're all Brunell's fault. Maybe the WRs really aren't getting open. The OL sure hasn't done much, and subsequently nor has the running game.

What I do see is a guy who doesn't look comfortable, holds the ball too long, doesn't step up in the pocket well, has lousy footwork (as mentioned by Theismann), makes bad decisions, and is never a threat to bust out for a scramble gain.

But Gibbs knows a lot more about football than I do, so if he thinks Brunell should remain the starter then so do I. Plus I think this team is ideally best off with a successful Brunell, and Ramsey learning from the sidelines.

But if Coach decides it's time for PR, then I'll happily change my vote to "D". :thumb:

[QUOTE=Paintrain]What do all of those backs have? A quarterback who is a threat to the defense. If I was a def. coord. I would put 8 in the box until Brunell beat me deep once, then leave 8 in the box until he proves he can do it again. It's not the line, it's not the system, it's not the scheme, it's the personnel..
[/QUOTE]

oh yeah, NOT TO MENTION w/o an air attack every defense is singling Portis OUT while everyone is learning this Gibbs system. result? fumbles and everything thats been happening.

[QUOTE=SUNRA] Look at the passes that were caught and you see 2 defenders on almost every play. Where are the receivers who have one on one coverage on them?[/QUOTE]

How can you say that the opposing defenses are stacking 8 or 9 guys in the box all the time [see your previous post], but putting double coverage on our wideouts?

With 8 or nine defenders in the box and Gibbs running 3 WR routes, how can you honestly say our recievers are being double-teamed? By my count, that would mean the opposing defenses are fielding 14 or 15 guys.

After tonight's game I'm tempted to call for wholesale changes. Bench Brunell, Coles, and Gardner. Start Ramsey, Jacobs, McCants. We need a spark somewhere.

[QUOTE=Ramseyfan]How can you say that the opposing defenses are stacking 8 or 9 guys in the box all the time [see your previous post], but putting double coverage on our wideouts?
[/QUOTE]

i WISH our receivers were dangerous enough to warrant double teams. thats the whole point. the way the receivers and Brunell are playing means they dont have to, so instead they effectively triple team Portis. 8 men in the box.

[QUOTE=smootsmack]After tonight's game I'm tempted to call for wholesale changes. Bench Brunell, Coles, and Gardner. Start Ramsey, Jacobs, McCants. We need a spark somewhere.[/QUOTE]

man, at this point, i would NOT be opposed to that. let Coles recover fully if thats whats been stopping him from outrunning DBs, and let McCants or even Thrash not drop those clutch ones Gardner is infamous for.

noticed you wouldn't bench Portis. smart.

The best quarterback on our team is Hassleback
Talk about spark he has it.
If ramsey goes in he'll get sacked all day long
he has no mobility
and no clock in his head

Bring In Ramsey!!!
Cannon Man Pat!

here's my thoughts (as if anyone cares ;))

when we got behind by 7 points, my heart sunk, cause i knew that brunell's love of the 4 yard pass and throwing the ball away (as per instructions), such a small lead would be impossible to overcome... he threw high, to the right, etc all over the field... he's had 5 weeks to show improvement and he hasn't, SO...

give ramsey a week and see how he fares (the ravens would be a horrible game to start him in, brunell's also lit them up in the past, but not tonight)... with brunell in i feel like we can't get back from being behind, PR has big play ability... he makes mistakes, but i have hope till the last second that he might be able to make SOMETHING happen... and i think he has a much better connection with coles (brunell seems to prefer gardner or whoever is 4-7 yards out)...

ramsey could suck too, but i think i rather take me chances with him than with these short passes... brunell seems to ONLY throw to safety vavles and short of first downs (luckily coles can run decently...)

i just hate watching crappy horizontal passing, especially when its not working... we'd have to be lucky to hit 8-8 right now, if ramsey's the future, now's a good time to lay the groundwork...

[QUOTE=That Guy] give ramsey a week and see how he fares (the ravens would be a horrible game to start him in, brunell's also lit them up in the past, but not tonight)... with brunell in i feel like we can't get back from being behind, PR has big play ability... [U]he makes mistakes[/U], but i have hope till the last second that he might be able to make SOMETHING happen...[/QUOTE]

i agree...Ramsey makes mistakes but he also moves the ball down the field...When Brunell makes mistakes the opposing defense walks into the endzone with a fumble recovery.

You know what I really hate. When we have 3rd and 8 or a 3rd and ten, and Brunell throws a 4 yard pass. Isnt this the reason we brought in a vetran Quarterback, so he didnt do stupid crap like that. Half the time when the recivers would drop the ball, I would just think, " Good, you shouldnt be throwing it there anyways ". I mean seriously, this guy is AHHHHHHHHH I'm going crazy. I hate night games, I never get any sleep, but I'm sure some guys had it worse.

yeah, the constant 4 yard passes are killing me... it seems like thats all he ever wants to throw... ever...

Here's my prediction:

Brunell starts this week in Chicago, if the offense still doesn't show any life, Ramsey is the starter after the bye. Just my gut feeling.

I would give Brunell one more week to get the offense going and then switch to Ramsey after the bye week if there is no improvement.

That would give Ramsey an extra week of practice with the first team offense so that he has a better chance for success.

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Here's my prediction:

Brunell starts this week in Chicago, if the offense still doesn't show any life, Ramsey is the starter after the bye. Just my gut feeling.[/QUOTE]

Probably a good call Matty and more of the way it should be. As frustrated as I am and have been with Jelly Arm (as he will be known until proven otherwise) to start Ramsey for a week, then go into the bye doesn't do much. Suppose Ramsey struggles, then we have 2 weeks of hand wringing over who the starter should be. If J.A. can't get it done at Chicago, then it's defnitely time for a change.