Re: Lets overpay for Jared Allen
 

I think smart teams draft linemen and sign skill players. Linemen are easier to project and take to the NFL faster. QBs and WRs are complete crap shoots and RBs are a dime a dozen. We need to focus on CBs and linemen in the draft because that's where you get cheap studs more easily. We could concievably use our first round pick on Dline and our 3 and 4 on Oline then do the opposite next year and have remade our lines totally in 2 years. Cheaply. That is to say if we do a decent job evaluating. It justs seems smarter to me to do that and spend the same amount of money on those 6 players than to shell out for players who may not be any better than what we can get in the draft.

Look at successful teams they ALL draft their lines. Especially the Dlines.

Re: Lets overpay for Jared Allen
 

The cheifs just franchised him, which means he would cost a 1st and 4rd rounder in addition to a hefty contract extension.

Thats not gonna happen.

Re: Lets overpay for Jared Allen
 

The franchise tag is annoying.

Re: Lets overpay for Jared Allen
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;423808]One more thing about DEs -- just got finished checking the stats for our boy Chris Clemons from a few years back. He had 8 sacks for the Raiders in '07 as a linebacker.

Wonder what his contract situation is? Was it a one year thing? He was one I never thought we should have let get away.[/QUOTE]

Raiders entire D was on the field way too long. Wouldn't get too upset about his production for the Raiders. He was solid but some get away.

Re: Lets overpay for Jared Allen
 

[QUOTE=SkinsFanSince91;423856]The cheifs just franchised him, which means he would cost a 1st and 4rd rounder in addition to a hefty contract extension.

Thats not gonna happen.[/QUOTE]

Franchise tag is 2 1st round picks.. Transition tag is a 1st and 3rd..

Either way, he's not going to be a Redskin any time soon.

Re: Lets overpay for Jared Allen
 

Let's not overpay for anyone...It's not like we have any absolute desperate needs anywhere (except possibly a need to get younger at CB). We were good on defense and if healthy can be good on offense. Why not just take smaller steps each offseason and add only when we need to in FA AND when it is sensible (i.e. not break the bank and screw ourselves for when we truly do have a need)? With the money and draft picks we save by not "Snydering it" this offseason maybe we can add quality depth and RETAIN THE TALENT WE ARE CURRENTLY DEVELOPING. Let's not forget that we were a playoff team that lost many close games in the regular season (not exactly a team that needs a complete overhauL). I think that if we changed nothing this offseason our team as a whole would still progress. I'm all for some tweaks and changes here and there this offseason but lets not handicap ourselves like we typically do.

Re: Lets overpay for Jared Allen
 

Also I think its funny that a majority of ppl are willing to criticize Dan Snyder for overpaying and chasing FA's but yet if the same skins fans were polled, I think a majority would advocate breakin the bank for an Asante Samuel or Chad Johnson or some other big name guy...At some level there is some hypocrisy going on!

For the record I don't want one of those big name FA's unless they really fit our system and come at a bargain price this year...

Re: Lets overpay for Jared Allen
 

We can't pay or overpay Jared Allen; he's been franchised by the Chiefs. You knew they weren't going to let someone of his caliber go. He led the NFL in sacks and is only 25-was probably the best free agent on the market.

Re: Lets overpay for Jared Allen
 

[QUOTE=Rajmahal33;424057]Also I think its funny that a majority of ppl are willing to criticize Dan Snyder for overpaying and chasing FA's but yet if the same skins fans were polled, I think a majority would advocate breakin the bank for an Asante Samuel or Chad Johnson or some other big name guy...At some level there is some hypocrisy going on!

For the record I don't want one of those big name FA's unless they really fit our system and come at a bargain price this year...[/QUOTE]

As someone said to me, people will always complain. But I do agree. People are jumping on the Ocho Cinco bandwagon, but little do they realize that the Bengals will take our 1st and 3rd round picks and CJ will cost a ton of money. There are plenty of young UFAs at WR out there that would not cost us much money and could thrive with the Skins. The same goes for some good Defensive Linemen, although the Giants' D-Line performance might bump up their price. I think the Skins need to go young, be efficient with their FAs signing and use the draft.

Re: Lets overpay for Jared Allen
 

[QUOTE=FRPLG;423820]Funny how when we overpay for certain guys and they work out that DS and the FO don't get credit for that.[/QUOTE]

Even in this scenario, if you overpay for someone who "works out" -- you've still OVERPAID for him.

Funny how Lil' Danny still has his rabid defenders with that sparkling 50-62 record.

Re: Lets overpay for Jared Allen
 

[QUOTE=Rajmahal33;424055]Let's not overpay for anyone...[B]It's not like we have any absolute desperate needs anywhere[/B] (except possibly a need to get younger at CB). We were good on defense and if healthy can be good on offense. Why not just take smaller steps each offseason and add only when we need to in FA AND when it is sensible (i.e. not break the bank and screw ourselves for when we truly do have a need)? With the money and draft picks we save by not "Snydering it" this offseason maybe we can add quality depth and RETAIN THE TALENT WE ARE CURRENTLY DEVELOPING. Let's not forget that we were a playoff team that lost many close games in the regular season (not exactly a team that needs a complete overhauL). I think that if we changed nothing this offseason our team as a whole would still progress. I'm all for some tweaks and changes here and there this offseason but lets not handicap ourselves like we typically do.[/QUOTE]

Maybe not "desperate" needs, but I think a case could be made that we have [I]pressing[/I] needs at multiple positions. And that's pretty unusual for a 9-7 playoff team.

Quarterback, running back and linebacker are the only areas I think the Redskins are pretty solid. But we really need young, budding talent at just about every position at O-line. Then we have the season-after-season problem of getting another DE who can consistently get pressure on the QB.

Then there's the secondary: Reed Doughty filled in admirably for Sean Taylor, but no one can argue he's a long term answer at that position. At cornerback, Shawn Springs' gas tank apparently never reaches "empty" -- but sooner or later, we all know that day is coming. Rogers is coming off a grotesque injury to his knee, and he hasn't been knocking anyone's socks off anyhow.

Add to that wide receiver, where Santana Moss has been slacking and we still have no capable #2 complement to him.

That's a fairly intense list of needs that can't possibly be answered in one draft or offseason. But I think they are vital if this team is to take the next steps forward.

Re: Lets overpay for Jared Allen
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;424095]Even in this scenario, if you overpay for someone who "works out" -- you've still OVERPAID for him.

Funny how Lil' Danny still has his rabid defenders with that sparkling 50-62 record.[/QUOTE]

If you're going to keep pulling that 50-62 argument out every other week you should at least get the numbers right

Re: Lets overpay for Jared Allen
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;424100]If you're going to keep pulling that 50-62 argument out every other week you should at least get the numbers right[/QUOTE]

How are those numbers wrong?

1999 -- Casserly's team, I don't count that
2000 -- 8-8
2001 -- Marty's year, not counting that either
2002 -- 7-9
2003 -- 5-11
2004 -- 6-10
2005 -- 10-6
2006 -- 5-11
2007 -- 9-7

Grand total = 50-62

Re: Lets overpay for Jared Allen
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;424102]How are those numbers wrong?

1999 -- Casserly's team, I don't count that
2000 -- 8-8
2001 -- Marty's year, not counting that either
2002 -- 7-9
2003 -- 5-11
2004 -- 6-10
2005 -- 10-6
2006 -- 5-11
2007 -- 9-7

Grand total = 50-62[/QUOTE]

Well if you're going to just make up your own rules and decide when he "didn't count" as an owner then I guess there's just no arguing with you.

Re: Lets overpay for Jared Allen
 

Chiefs Franchised Allen today

Re: Lets overpay for Jared Allen
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;424110]Well if you're going to just make up your own rules and decide when he "didn't count" as an owner then I guess there's just no arguing with you.[/QUOTE]

Ok then, how would YOU total up his record?

What's your objection to my discounting of 1999 when the team was already assembled and 2001 when he had no say over team personnel?

Re: Lets overpay for Jared Allen
 

[quote=T.O.Killa;424113]Chiefs Franchised Allen today[/quote]
was this old news?

Re: Lets overpay for Jared Allen
 

[QUOTE=T.O.Killa;424118]was this old news?[/QUOTE]

it's been posted a few times in this thread

Re: Lets overpay for Jared Allen
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;424116]Ok then, how would YOU total up his record?[/QUOTE]

Well first I don't see the point of it, but that's besides the point. I would just add up the wins and losses, simple as that. I know the numbers aren't great but it's not 50-62.

Re: Lets overpay for Jared Allen
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;424123]Well first I don't see the point of it, but that's besides the point. I would just add up the wins and losses, simple as that. I know the numbers aren't great but it's not 50-62.[/QUOTE]

You don't see the point in looking at the total number of wins and losses as a measure of success or failure? Interesting.

Upon what then, do you base the success of an owner who by all accounts has an important role in determining the team's overall makeup?

If you agree that the numbers "aren't great" but disagree with the manner by which I arrived at those numbers, then we differ by degree, but not in principle.

Re: Lets overpay for Jared Allen
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;424128]You don't see the point in looking at the total number of wins and losses as a measure of success or failure? Interesting.

Upon what then, do you base the success of an owner who by all accounts has an important role in determining the team's overall makeup?

If you agree that the numbers "aren't great" but disagree with the manner by which I arrived at those numbers, then we differ by degree, but not in principle.[/QUOTE]

But you're not even looking at the total numbers because you're pulling numbers out.

Besides you know that wins and losses isn't all it comes down to.

Team A:

Year 1: 12-4
Year 2: 8-8
Year 3: 4-12

Team B:

Year 1: 4-12
Year 2: 8-8
Year 3: 12-4

So who's the better owner?

Re: Lets overpay for Jared Allen
 

Tell you what, SS -- I'll concede 2001 and give you that 8-8 record. But I stand by my omission of 1999 because Snyder didn't take over until just before training camp began and the team was already assembled by Charley Casserly. So that brings us to ... what, 58-70?

And yes, winning and losing is basically what it comes down to. As Parcells used to say, you are what your record says you are. But since your not looking at wins and losses, I guess we're just not going to see eye to eye on this one are we?

Re: Lets overpay for Jared Allen
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;424159]Tell you what, SS -- I'll concede 2001 and give you that 8-8 record. But I stand by my omission of 1999 because Snyder didn't take over until just before training camp began and the team was already assembled by Charley Casserly. So that brings us to ... what, 58-70?

And yes, winning and losing is basically what it comes down to. As Parcells used to say, you are what your record says you are. But since your not looking at wins and losses, I guess we're just not going to see eye to eye on this one are we?[/QUOTE]

Well answer my question about Team A vs. Team B

Re: Lets overpay for Jared Allen
 

Interesting couple of posts on this page. I would kind of agree with not counting '99 since Danny had basically zero say in the personnel that season. But you have to count 2001 w/ Marty. It was Snyder's 3rd season as owner. It counts, regardless of who was pulling the strings.

On a side note, are there any FA WR's who have experience in the WCO?

Re: Lets overpay for Jared Allen
 

[QUOTE=GMScud;424166]Interesting couple of posts on this page. I would kind of agree with not counting '99 since Danny had basically zero say in the personnel that season. But you have to count 2001 w/ Marty. It was Snyder's 3rd season as owner. It counts, regardless of who was pulling the strings.

On a side note, are there any FA WR's who have experience in the WCO?[/QUOTE]

DJ Hackett. Maybe Javon Walker

Re: Lets overpay for Jared Allen
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;424102]How are those numbers wrong?

1999 -- Casserly's team, I don't count that
2000 -- 8-8
2001 -- Marty's year, not counting that either
2002 -- 7-9
2003 -- 5-11
2004 -- 6-10
2005 -- 10-6
2006 -- 5-11
2007 -- 9-7

Grand total = 50-62[/QUOTE]

Wow! Talking about skewed. You're just going to pick and choose which seasons to count and which to not? By your logic, we should also not count 2004 - 2007. After all to suggest that Gibbs didn't have at least the majority of the say over personnel is just not paying attention.

Re: Lets overpay for Jared Allen
 

[quote=SmootSmack;424167]DJ Hackett. Maybe Javon Walker[/quote]

Walker is oft injured and a complainer. Hackett is only 26 but played in just 6 games last year. In those 6 games he did manage about 400 yards and 3 TDs. He could be had for cheap and knows Zorn's stuff well. Walker will cost a lot more, gets hurt a lot, and turns 30 this year.

Re: Lets overpay for Jared Allen
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;424165]Well answer my question about Team A vs. Team B[/QUOTE]

OK, I'll play along. A 24-24 record over three years says mediocrity. On a year-by-year basis, some good seasons, some bad ones.

A 50-62 record, (or 58-70, or 68-76, if you prefer) says that you're in the range of .446 to .472, depending on how you look at it. Either way, as you said earlier the numbers "aren't great".

Re: Lets overpay for Jared Allen
 

[QUOTE=skinsguy;424169]Wow! Talking about skewed. You're just going to pick and choose which seasons to count and which to not? By your logic, we should also not count 2004 - 2007. After all to suggest that Gibbs didn't have at least the majority of the say over personnel is just not paying attention.[/QUOTE]

*Sigh.*

If you take away the years of 2004-07, the record is 28-36 (or 38-42 if you count Casserly's '99 team.) Any way you slice it, it's a less than enthusing track record.

But go ahead, go on and tell us how Lil' Danny walks on water and gives presents to starving children every Christmas while off duty as the best owner in the history of sports.

Re: Lets overpay for Jared Allen
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;424173]OK, I'll play along. A 24-24 record over three years says mediocrity. On a year-by-year basis, some good seasons, some bad ones.

A 50-62 record, (or 58-70, or 68-76, if you prefer) says that you're in the range of .446 to .472, depending on how you look at it. Either way, as you said earlier the numbers "aren't great".[/QUOTE]

Really? So if one team were to show improvement over the course of an owner's first three years while the other were to show a gradual decline your argument is "numbers are numbers."

Fascinating

Re: Lets overpay for Jared Allen
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;424176]But go ahead, go on and tell us how Lil' Danny walks on water and gives presents to starving children every Christmas while off duty as the best owner in the history of sports.[/QUOTE]

Way to defend your weak argument.

(I think maybe we need to redefine "VIP" on this site)

Re: Lets overpay for Jared Allen
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;424178]Way to defend your weak argument.

(I think maybe we need to redefine "VIP" on this site)[/QUOTE]


Way to take one of two statements away from a post and frame that as my argument.

Fascinating indeed.

Re: Lets overpay for Jared Allen
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;424180]Way to take one of two statements away from a post and frame that as my argument.

Fascinating indeed.[/QUOTE]

If I'm not mistaken the crux of your argument is basically "numbers are numbers, no matter how you slice it"

Then you added that walk on water nonsense just for the hell of it.

Re: Lets overpay for Jared Allen
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;424177]Really? So if one team were to show improvement over the course of an owner's first three years while the other were to show a gradual decline your argument is "numbers are numbers."

Fascinating[/QUOTE]

Well, if you go from a 10-6 playoff team in 1999 to 8-8 the next year, cutting guys like Brian Mitchell and bringing in Jeff George and Deion Sanders, alienating Brad Johnson and firing a head coach in the middle of a season with the playoffs still in reach, [B]YES -- I'd call that a decline.[/B]

If you go from a solid, proven guy like Marty Schottenheimer who had this team in the right direction and firing him for Steve Spurrier while dragging in bums like Trung Canidate and Jaquez Green, [B]YES -- I'd call that a decline.[/B]

If you go from a 10-6 playoff team in 2005, and then revert right back to your old ways and bring in guys like Adam Archuleta, Brandon Lloyd and TJ Duckett, tossing away valuable draft picks in the process on your way to a 5-11 record, [B]YES -- I'd call that a decline.[/B]

How 'bout that? That fit nicely in your little Team 'A' vs. Team 'B' scenario?

Re: Lets overpay for Jared Allen
 

[quote=Beemnseven;424183]Well, if you go from a 10-6 playoff team in 1999 to 8-8 the next year, cutting guys like Brian Mitchell and bringing in Jeff George and Deion Sanders, alienating Brad Johnson and firing a head coach in the middle of a season with the playoffs still in reach, [B]YES -- I'd call that a decline.[/B]

If you go from a solid, proven guy like Marty Schottenheimer who had this team in the right direction and firing him for Steve Spurrier while dragging in bums like Trung Canidate and Jaquez Green, [B]YES -- I'd call that a decline.[/B]

If you go from a 10-6 playoff team in 2005, and then revert right back to your old ways and bring in guys like Adam Archuleta, Brandon Lloyd and TJ Duckett, tossing away valuable draft picks in the process on your way to a 5-11 record, [B]YES -- I'd call that a decline.[/B]

How 'bout that? That fit nicely in your little Team 'A' vs. Team 'B' scenario?[/quote]You should also note that while the average record for a hypothetical team in a season is 8-8, that doesn't account for the fact that the median team in the NFL tends to be a 7-9 team. This is because the elite teams win more games than the awful teams lose. That is to say, that the average NFL team is inevitably more likely to lose to the worst team in the NFL than they are to beat the best team in the NFL. This makes sense, does it not?

Therefore the prototypically average NFL franchise will win about 47% of it's games in the free agency era. The Redskins have won 47% of their games in the Snyder era. I would agree with you that it would be irresponsible to credit Snyder for the success in 1999, but the Redskins are still (give or take) the average NFL franchise in his era.

Maybe average isn't good enough for you, but I don't think that's the argument you are trying to make.

Re: Lets overpay for Jared Allen
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;424183]Well, if you go from a 10-6 playoff team in 1999 to 8-8 the next year, cutting guys like Brian Mitchell and bringing in Jeff George and Deion Sanders, alienating Brad Johnson and firing a head coach in the middle of a season with the playoffs still in reach, [B]YES -- I'd call that a decline.[/B]

If you go from a solid, proven guy like Marty Schottenheimer who had this team in the right direction and firing him for Steve Spurrier while dragging in bums like Trung Canidate and Jaquez Green, [B]YES -- I'd call that a decline.[/B]

If you go from a 10-6 playoff team in 2005, and then revert right back to your old ways and bring in guys like Adam Archuleta, Brandon Lloyd and TJ Duckett, tossing away valuable draft picks in the process on your way to a 5-11 record, [B]YES -- I'd call that a decline.[/B]

How 'bout that? That fit nicely in your little Team 'A' vs. Team 'B' scenario?[/QUOTE]

Finally! Why didn't you just state that from the start?

You're getting snippy with me I see. But this to me isn't about Snyder. And you probably think I'm arguing with you in order to defend Snyder. I'm not. That argument has played itself out.

I know you're very critical of the team and tend to believe we've lucked into whatever successed we've had in recent years and when we win we win in spite of ourselves. But this isn't even about that. This is just about the premise of your argument. What bothers me is that I know you're too smart to resort to something so simplistic as "well 50-62" when there are so many more factors involved. Namely, how did a team progress/regress over the course of that owner's tenure.

Re: Lets overpay for Jared Allen
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;424186]You should also note that while the average record for a hypothetical team in a season is 8-8, that doesn't account for the fact that the median team in the NFL tends to be a 7-9 team. This is because the elite teams win more games than the awful teams lose. That is to say, that the average NFL team is inevitably more likely to lose to the worst team in the NFL than they are to beat the best team in the NFL. This makes sense, does it not?

Therefore the prototypically average NFL franchise will win about 47% of it's games in the free agency era. The Redskins have won 47% of their games in the Snyder era. I would agree with you that it would be irresponsible to credit Snyder for the success in 1999, but the Redskins are still give or take the average NFL franchise in his era.

Maybe average isn't good enough for you, but I don't think that's the argument you are trying to make.[/QUOTE]

I just know what this team used to be under the ownership of a wise owner, and a competent GM.

When I look at what it is now, it makes me sick. Though some people may find it difficult to believe, I still have hope that one day, Lil' Danny will figure the whole thing out.

Re: Lets overpay for Jared Allen
 

[quote=Beemnseven;424192]I just know what this team used to be under the ownership of a wise owner, and a competent GM.

When I look at what it is now, it makes me sick. Though some people may find it difficult to believe, I still have hope that one day, Lil' Danny will figure the whole thing out.[/quote]I think (IMO) that day came 4 years ago.

I do think Vinny and Scott Campbell are the right people for the job of GM and assistant GM. Only time will tell if they draft properly, but they've said all the right things so far.

Re: Lets overpay for Jared Allen
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;424189]Finally! Why didn't you just state that from the start?

You're getting snippy with me I see. But this to me isn't about Snyder. And you probably think I'm arguing with you in order to defend Snyder. I'm not. That argument has played itself out.

I know you're very critical of the team and tend to believe we've lucked into whatever successed we've had in recent years and when we win we win in spite of ourselves. But this isn't even about that. This is just about the premise of your argument. What bothers me is that I know you're too smart to resort to something so simplistic as "well 50-62" when there are so many more factors involved. Namely, how did a team progress/regress over the course of that owner's tenure.[/QUOTE]

No, I'm not getting snippy. I wouldn't do this if it weren't so much fun.

Look, it may surprise you to learn that I do sometimes see that there may be glimpses -- short, scattering, faint glimpses -- of signs that Snyder might just be starting to get the hang of this thing. I do see progress in two playoff seasons out of the past three. On the other hand, I also believe that those two successful campaigns were built on pure emotion, and didn't come until their backs were against the wall; one under heart-wrenching circumstances which tore at their souls. 2008 will soon tell us if it was a flash in the pan, or if we're back on the path to dominance the way we saw it back in the '80s.

But then, I'm a skeptic at heart. We may never see the success of the '80s again. When we start seeing sustained success, I'll change my tune.

Until then, Lil' Danny will never escape my wrath.

Re: Lets overpay for Jared Allen
 

[quote=GMScud;424171]Walker is oft injured and a complainer. Hackett is only 26 but played in just 6 games last year. In those 6 games he did manage about 400 yards and 3 TDs. He could be had for cheap and knows Zorn's stuff well. Walker will cost a lot more, gets hurt a lot, and turns 30 this year.[/quote]

I'm officially on board with going after Hackett. Yes he's had injury issues but when healthy the guy is a player and he won't cost us a ton either.

He's got good size (6'2, 208) and he's only 26. I think he's a good gamble.