Re: Cheney treated like others, angry about it
 

[quote=ArtMonkDrillz;272507]To me, and I very well could be wrong, it seems like the media went after Clinton harder for catching a BJ than they have gone after Bush for getting the US involved in Vietnam 2.0: the Reckoning. Maybe the fact that Congress was able to actually impeach Clinton for purgery had something to do with it, but at least the man didn't start a war that seems more likely to [I]create[/I] new terrorists than get rid of the old ones.[/quote]
Give me a break about Vietnam there is no comparison between the two.

Re: Cheney treated like others, angry about it
 

[QUOTE=ArtMonkDrillz;272507]To me, and I very well could be wrong, it seems like the media went after Clinton harder for catching a BJ than they have gone after Bush for getting the US involved in Vietnam 2.0: the Reckoning. Maybe the fact that Congress was able to actually impeach Clinton for purgery had something to do with it, but at least the man didn't start a war that seems more likely to [I]create[/I] new terrorists than get rid of the old ones.[/QUOTE]

I tend to think just about anything we do is going to make more terrorists.

Re: Cheney treated like others, angry about it
 

[QUOTE=FRPLG;272518]I tend to think just about anything we do is going to make more terrorists.[/QUOTE]
Sadly, I think you're right. The world is getting smaller in terms of living space and there are so many fundamental difference between people that someone is always going to be pissed off about something.

Re: Cheney treated like others, angry about it
 

[quote=cpayne5;272476]Do you like the welfare program? How about social security?[/quote]
aren't these pertinent issues to the welfare of our country? is steroids in baseball?

Re: Cheney treated like others, angry about it
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;272528]aren't these pertinent issues to the welfare of our country? is steroids in baseball?[/QUOTE]

Lots of people consider steroids an 'issue to the the welfare of our country'. A strong case has been made (by people on both sides of the aisle) that as role models, steroid use by players sends a bad message (read, influence) to kids.

Re: Cheney treated like others, angry about it
 

Gay marriage was a phony wedge issue used to rile up the conservative christians in middle america. It was a strategy that worked - Bush got reelected. How much political capital have they expended on getting that amendment through after the election? Where is the push to get it ratified? Instead they decided they would try to privatize social security.

Anyway, I think Cheney should at least clarify how he can be part of an administration that openly discriminates against his daughter. If you want to cozy up to the Christian right to win elections you have to be publically accountable for that.

Re: Cheney treated like others, angry about it
 

i couldnt have said that any better

Re: Cheney treated like others, angry about it
 

but, accountability is something this adminstration doesnt know anything about

Re: Cheney treated like others, angry about it
 

The gay marriage debate was definately lacking in substance and was used to simply get W re-elected. However, meaningless issues forced upon us by idiot politicians pandering for votes is nothing new.

Re: Cheney treated like others, angry about it
 

[quote=djnemo65;272539]Gay marriage was a phony wedge issue used to rile up the conservative christians in middle america. It was a strategy that worked - Bush got reelected. How much political capital have they expended on getting that amendment through after the election? Where is the push to get it ratified? Instead they decided they would try to privatize social security.

[B]Anyway, I think Cheney should at least clarify how he can be part of an administration that openly discriminates against his daughter. If you want to cozy up to the Christian right to win elections you have to be publically accountable for that.[/quote][/B]



Well cheney had no choice in his daughters sexuality. If you are born gay, your gay. pretty simple. Discriminates? because they dont want to change the law? I feel like, whats the big deal with trying to change it really? If gays want to be together,.... be together. I dont care. I dont think that qualifys as discrimination. And Blitzer is one of the bigger democratic ball kissers around. His question was nothing more than an attempt to ruffle and disrespect the VP. His daughter has been discussed SO many times, and he has talked openly and at length about it, that their was no [I]real [/I]reason to ask about her.

Re: Cheney treated like others, angry about it
 

I can't speak for others but I have 1 son and 2 daughters and if anyone of them were to come to me and tell me that they are gay I would not turn my back on them. I wouldn't be pleased, I am sure, at first. But at the end of the day they still would be my son or daughter and I would still be proud of them.

I am not saying that Cheney doesn't love or isn't proud of his daughter, but here is a guy that can help his own daughter live life a little easier and what does he do? He takes a back seat to the whole issue.

I am sorry but to me that is unacceptable to be a person who has some power and he does nothing to promote the well being of his daughter and his grandchild that will be growing up in a same sex household. No he just basicly washes his hands of the whole issue, boy that would be a great way to show your own flesh and blood that you care for her...

Re: Cheney treated like others, angry about it
 

[QUOTE=Redskins8588;272610]I can't speak for others but I have 1 son and 2 daughters and if anyone of them were to come to me and tell me that they are gay I would not turn my back on them. I wouldn't be pleased, I am sure, at first. But at the end of the day they still would be my son or daughter and I would still be proud of them.

I am not saying that Cheney doesn't love or isn't proud of his daughter, but here is a guy that can help his own daughter live life a little easier and what does he do? He takes a back seat to the whole issue.

I am sorry but to me that is unacceptable to be a person who has some power and he does nothing to promote the well being of his daughter and his grandchild that will be growing up in a same sex household. No he just basicly washes his hands of the whole issue, boy that would be a great way to show your own flesh and blood that you care for her...[/QUOTE]


I think that's well said. I am not exactly Martin Luther King, but I do think I would have the principle in that situation to go into the president's office and say, we have to abandon this issue or I'm stepping down. I mean, it wouldn't be a question.

Re: Cheney treated like others, angry about it
 

[QUOTE=Redskins8588;272610]I can't speak for others but I have 1 son and 2 daughters and if anyone of them were to come to me and tell me that they are gay I would not turn my back on them. I wouldn't be pleased, I am sure, at first. But at the end of the day they still would be my son or daughter and I would still be proud of them.

[b]I am not saying that Cheney doesn't love or isn't proud of his daughter, but here is a guy that can help his own daughter live life a little easier and what does he do? He takes a back seat to the whole issue.

I am sorry but to me that is unacceptable to be a person who has some power and he does nothing to promote the well being of his daughter and his grandchild that will be growing up in a same sex household. No he just basicly washes his hands of the whole issue, boy that would be a great way to show your own flesh and blood that you care for her...[/b][/QUOTE]

... and that's why Cheney is a coward.

djnemo said it best: Cheney should've stepped down.

Re: Cheney treated like others, angry about it
 

[quote=Redskins8588;272610]I can't speak for others but I have 1 son and 2 daughters and if anyone of them were to come to me and tell me that they are gay I would not turn my back on them. I wouldn't be pleased, I am sure, at first. But at the end of the day they still would be my son or daughter and I would still be proud of them.

I am not saying that Cheney doesn't love or isn't proud of his daughter, but here is a guy that can help his own daughter live life a little easier and what does he do? He takes a back seat to the whole issue.

I am sorry but to me that is unacceptable to be a person who has some power and he does nothing to promote the well being of his daughter and his grandchild that will be growing up in a same sex household. No he just basicly washes his hands of the whole issue, boy that would be a great way to show your own flesh and blood that you care for her...[/quote]He has backed his daughter and if you do a search there are plenty of articles about his stance on the issue. [url=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5817720/]Cheney at odds with Bush on gay marriage - Politics - MSNBC.com[/url]

Re: Cheney treated like others, angry about it
 

[quote=djnemo65;272539]Gay marriage was a phony wedge issue used to rile up the conservative christians in middle america. It was a strategy that worked - Bush got reelected. How much political capital have they expended on getting that amendment through after the election? Where is the push to get it ratified? Instead they decided they would try to privatize social security.

Anyway, I think Cheney should at least clarify how he can be part of an administration that openly discriminates against his daughter. If you want to cozy up to the Christian right to win elections you have to be publically accountable for that.[/quote]
I guess you would have to say that Clinton and everyone who voted for this bill he signed discriminated against gays.[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_Marriage_Act]Defense of Marriage Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

Re: Cheney treated like others, angry about it
 

why does everything in politics have to be about bill clinton? he must have been one helluva president

Re: Cheney treated like others, angry about it
 

[quote=dmek25;272771]why does everything in politics have to be about bill clinton? he must have been one helluva president[/quote]
Becaus most who bash bush supported Clinton and seem to forget that he passed similar laws.

Re: Cheney treated like others, angry about it
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;272771]why does everything in politics have to be about bill clinton? he must have been one helluva president[/QUOTE]

Just like everything for everyone else is George Bush?

Re: Cheney treated like others, angry about it
 

[QUOTE=firstdown;272749]He has backed his daughter and if you do a search there are plenty of articles about his stance on the issue. [url=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5817720/]Cheney at odds with Bush on gay marriage - Politics - MSNBC.com[/url][/QUOTE]

Ok then whats the big deal if Wolf asks him questions about it in an interview?

Re: Cheney treated like others, angry about it
 

[quote=Redskins8588;272793]Ok then whats the big deal if Wolf asks him questions about it in an interview?[/quote]

The big deal simply seems to stem from the fact that it was a question that involves Cheney and his family on a personal level. There are a lot of other issues to deal with that Cheney can answer without going into something that diametrically opposes his party's position. I think Mr. Blitzer should've simply crossed that off of his list of things to ask.

Re: Cheney treated like others, angry about it
 

[quote=Redskins8588;272793]Ok then whats the big deal if Wolf asks him questions about it in an interview?[/quote]
If you read the article he said it was part of the job ( getting asked those questions)but felt that Wolf was crossing a line which he did not need to do. The writer made a bigger deal of it than he did. I was not a Clinton fan but always thought that when people brought his daughter into the mix it was not right.

Re: Cheney treated like others, angry about it
 

I think it's fair game to ask a VP about a homosexual daughter when the Bush administration relied, in part, on a gay-bashing platform to get re-elected. That said, Cheney has every right to tell Wolf he's not going to talk about his daughter. So, Cheney got it right, he knew such questions come with the territory and he also knew he could say F-off if he so chose. I don't think that makes him a coward.

Re: Cheney treated like others, angry about it
 

Whatever they bring that upon themselves when they become Presidents and Vice Presidents. No matter what its going to happen. Next your going to tell me that athlets are not role models.

Did Wolf cross a line when he asked Cheney about his daughter maybe, but isnt that his job also? And its not like Cheney's daughter is a minor here either, she is a grown woman.

Re: Cheney treated like others, angry about it
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;272826]I think it's fair game to ask a VP about a homosexual daughter when the Bush administration relied, in part, on a gay-bashing platform to get re-elected. That said, Cheney has every right to tell Wolf he's not going to talk about his daughter. So, Cheney got it right, he knew such questions come with the territory and he also knew he could say F-off if he so chose. I don't think that makes him a coward.[/QUOTE]

He's not a coward for refusing to answer. I'm surprised more politicians don't refuse to answer questions. He's a coward for not standing up for gays, and supporting an administration that is clearly anti-gay.

Re: Cheney treated like others, angry about it
 

[QUOTE=GhettoDogAllStars;272859]He's not a coward for refusing to answer. I'm surprised more politicians don't refuse to answer questions. He's a coward for not standing up for gays, and supporting an administration that is clearly anti-gay.[/QUOTE]

Maybe he's conflicted about the issue or opposes gay rights. I would assume that many parents with gay children would have conflicting feelings.

Re: Cheney treated like others, angry about it
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;272862]Maybe he's conflicted about the issue or opposes gay rights. I would assume that many parents with gay children would have conflicting feelings.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, you're right. Coward is maybe too harsh. I just think a man in his position should be more loyal to his principles (if his principles are to support gays).

Re: Cheney treated like others, angry about it
 

[QUOTE=GhettoDogAllStars;272866]Yeah, you're right. Coward is maybe too harsh. I just think a man in his position should be more loyal to his principles (if his principles are to support gays).[/QUOTE]

I'd agree with that. But, how many politicians are there that you think you could truly called principled and have the integrity to ensure that their conduct conforms to their beliefs?

Re: Cheney treated like others, angry about it
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;272868]I'd agree with that. But, how many politicians are there that you think you could truly called principled and have the integrity to ensure that their conduct conforms to their beliefs?[/QUOTE]

None. Which would explain my pessimism regarding the current state (and future) of our country. They all sell out sooner or later. :(

(and this is why I stopped voting)

Re: Cheney treated like others, angry about it
 

Cheney works for the party. He can't really do anything from his position because everyone has to work to appease THE BASE. His only option is to shut his trap about the subject and he is doing quite well in that regard. To expect much from him in regards to gay rights while he is in office is crazy.

Re: Cheney treated like others, angry about it
 

so we should expect more in 2008 from him? maybe a book?

Re: Cheney treated like others, angry about it
 

[quote=ArtMonkDrillz;272509]I think the media bias is really all about who you watch though. Firstdown is probably right in that the majority of the media has a left wing bias, but just look at Fox News for the polar opposite.
On the Daily Show (shows how much I really follow things) yesterday they were commenting on Fox News' real-time approval rating for Bush's State of the Union speech. According to about 85% Fox News viewers his speech was considered Excellent. As Jon Stewart put it, "those are Stalin-esque numbers." Plus, listen to guys like Bill O'Reilly when you want to say that everyone on TV is a left-winger.[/quote]I'm not going to comment much about politics, not because I don't know what I'm talking about, but because liberals and conservatives can find no common ground to argue on, thus cannot say anything worthwhile that the other side would consider reasonable. It's why I'd much like to argue football, because some people who disagree with you might actually listen to you.

Anyway, it just seems to me like Fox News gets a rep for being conservative-biased, simply because they televise conservative columnists. Here's the point: [B]ANY[/B] news network could have these guys on. They get good, if not great ratings. IMO, the reason that MSNBC and CNN and networks of the such don't ever give a conservative a show, even with the potential for it to draw great ratings, is an inherent liberal bias. I don't think the presence of a Bill O'Reilly or a Sean Hannity makes Fox News any more biased, since everybody in america knows that these guys are conservatives. The other stations simply don't want them on. So for a conservative, why would you ever watch MSNBC or CNN? Theres as much as a news bias there as any station, and the only columnists they televise are liberal.

Just seems like Fox News gets a media-produced bad rep. News is news, they don't report it differently than anyone else.

Re: Cheney treated like others, angry about it
 

I've got to agree and disagree with some of the things you said GTripp. I think it is unquestionable that the mainstream TV media has a liberal bias (vis-a-vis the American center, not vis-a-vis college students and professors). MSNBC and other networks have a liberal bias because they are choose to cover stories that inherently support Democratic platforms, are more likely to refer to politicians as "conservative" than "liberal," etc. Fox News is not so subtle. Fox News is far more overtly partisan than the other news networks. Fox is so very party-line and one-sided that I cannot even take them seriously.

Re: Cheney treated like others, angry about it
 

New is news... but it's definitely not reported in the same way by every media outlet that's for sure.

Re: Cheney treated like others, angry about it
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;272899]I'm not going to comment much about politics, not because I don't know what I'm talking about, but because liberals and conservatives can find no common ground to argue on, thus cannot say anything worthwhile that the other side would consider reasonable. It's why I'd much like to argue football, because some people who disagree with you might actually listen to you.

Anyway, it just seems to me like Fox News gets a rep for being conservative-biased, simply because they televise conservative columnists. Here's the point: [B]ANY[/B] news network could have these guys on. They get good, if not great ratings. IMO, the reason that MSNBC and CNN and networks of the such don't ever give a conservative a show, even with the potential for it to draw great ratings, is an inherent liberal bias. I don't think the presence of a Bill O'Reilly or a Sean Hannity makes Fox News any more biased, since everybody in america knows that these guys are conservatives. The other stations simply don't want them on. So for a conservative, why would you ever watch MSNBC or CNN? Theres as much as a news bias there as any station, and the only columnists they televise are liberal.

Just seems like Fox News gets a media-produced bad rep. News is news, they don't report it differently than anyone else.[/QUOTE]

Fox News' slogan is fair and balanced for crying out loud. Granted, CNN and MSNBC have left leaning personalities but they at least don't attempt to pass themselves of as fair and balanced. I have absolutely no problem with Fox News being a conservative mouthpiece, I just don't insult us and pretend you are not.

The other thing that bothers me about Fox News is that it seems every single one of their prominent host is trying to sell me his book. Buy my book this, read my book that. When I watch Fox it feels like I am watching a televangelist marathon. And lets not get started on the kind of people they have as guests...Ann Coulter...that bitch is either completely insane or truly a great act.

Lastly, take [URL="http://thinkprogress.org/2007/01/24/gibson-obama/"]John Gibbson's[/URL] recent [URL="http://websrvr80il.audiovideoweb.com/il80web20037/ThinkProgress/2007/gibson.mp4"]gaff [/URL]regarding Obama for example. Here you have Gibbson who works for Fox News and he is talking about how CNN has so much more money that they can afford to send a journalist to Jakarta to verify the Obama Madrassa story. I mean, how can you classify yourself as a journalist when you say something like that?

Re: Cheney treated like others, angry about it
 

A few years ago I found a paper written by a couple of professors that examined (from an academic point of view) the bias of various news outlets. I think the results will surprise a few here. The first version I read of this paper was written in 2003, but the link here is of an updated (November 2005) version.

The entire paper: [url]http://www.polisci.ucla.edu/faculty/groseclose/pdfs/MediaBias.pdf[/url]
A brief summary: [url=http://www.newsroom.ucla.edu/page.asp?RelNum=6664]Media Bias Is Real, Finds UCLA Political Scientist... 12/14/2005[/url]

Re: Cheney treated like others, angry about it
 

[QUOTE=cpayne5;272913]A few years ago I found a paper written by a couple of professors that examined (from an academic point of view) the bias of various news outlets. I think the results will surprise a few here. The first version I read of this paper was written in 2003, but the link here is of an updated (November 2005) version.

The entire paper: [url]http://www.polisci.ucla.edu/faculty/groseclose/pdfs/MediaBias.pdf[/url]
A brief summary: [url=http://www.newsroom.ucla.edu/page.asp?RelNum=6664]Media Bias Is Real, Finds UCLA Political Scientist... 12/14/2005[/url][/QUOTE]


[QUOTE]We measure media bias by estimating ideological scores for several major media outlets. To compute this, we count the times that a particular media outlet cites various think tanks and policy groups, and then compare this with the times that members of Congress cite the same groups.[/QUOTE]

Their method is absurd and I say that with a straight face. Is this what pass of as scientific study these days? The fact that these jokers mention anomalies (RAND and ACLU) with their list should tell you somethings.

Also, from their premise how do you account for how active an organization is? The ACLU and Amnesty International are in the business of fighting for the weak and defenseless and they don't hesitate to sue on behalf of the little guy. What about the fact that politicians like to take single topic that has the potential of furthering their own career and run with it?

Re: Cheney treated like others, angry about it
 

[quote=saden1;272926]Their method is absurd and I say that with a straight face. Is this what pass of as scientific study these days? The fact that these jokers mention anomalies (RAND and ACLU) with their list should tell you somethings.

Also, from their premise how do you account for how active an organization is? The ACLU and Amnesty International are in the business of fighting for the weak and defenseless and they don't hesitate to sue on behalf of the little guy. What about the fact that politicians like to take single topic that has the potential of furthering their own career and run with it?[/quote]But is there a better way to do a study on biases? Seems to me that they took every neccessary precaution to make sure that their study of biases stayed clear of biases.

No study is ever going to be conclusive. But some information is always better than none. Just like statistics in football. Very similar concepts. Some people will say something like "Numbers lie" and completely ignore all evidence when making cases for one player being better than another.

My stance on this issue is this, I would believe whats in this study is generally correct until a stronger study comes along that contradicts the findings in this one.

Re: Cheney treated like others, angry about it
 

[QUOTE=saden1;272926]Their method is absurd and I say that with a straight face. Is this what pass of as scientific study these days? The fact that these jokers mention anomalies (RAND and ACLU) with their list should tell you somethings.

Also, from their premise how do you account for how active an organization is? The ACLU and Amnesty International are in the business of fighting for the weak and defenseless and they don't hesitate to sue on behalf of the little guy. What about the fact that politicians like to take single topic that has the potential of furthering their own career and run with it?[/QUOTE]

The guys at MIT and Harvard (among others) who referee the journal it was published in didn't think it was so absurd.

Re: Cheney treated like others, angry about it
 

[QUOTE=cpayne5;272941]The guys at MIT and Harvard (among others) who referee the journal it was published in didn't think it was so absurd.[/QUOTE]

Here is a quick run down of the logical fallacies your remark commits.
[LIST][*]Appeal to Popularity - The journal is very popular and respectable therefore everything published on it is credible.[*]Ad Hominem - I am not qualified enough to criticize the method used by the study.[*]Red Herring - Changing the subject from their method to the journal.[/LIST]
Again, I personally think the media in general is left leaning (from observation) but the methods these guy used to arrive at the same conclusion is flawed.

Re: Cheney treated like others, angry about it
 

[QUOTE=saden1;272987]Here is a quick run down of the logical fallacies your remark commits.
[LIST][*]Appeal to Popularity - The journal is very popular and respectable therefore everything published on it is credible.[*]Ad Hominem - I am not qualified enough to criticize the method used by the study.[*]Red Herring - Changing the subject from their method to the journal.[/LIST]
Again, I personally think the media in general is left leaning (from observation) but the methods these guy used to arrive at the same conclusion is flawed.[/QUOTE]

I would say his comments hold as much logic as yours.