Re: Jay Gruden hired as head coach of the Redskins
 

Right. BEST case scenario is Rak goes somewhere else, we sign Rob Jackson to a cap-friendly contract, then find out that he's nowhere close to as good as Orakpo.

Re: Jay Gruden hired as head coach of the Redskins
 

Not saying Rob Jackson is the answer I named some viable replacements in Michael Johnson and Jason Worilds, who both could be cheaper.

I am saying we should not let Rack and his agent walk all over us because he doesn't have max production at his position IMO.

Re: Jay Gruden hired as head coach of the Redskins
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection;1056189]Right. BEST case scenario is Rak goes somewhere else, [B]we sign Rob Jackson to a cap-friendly contract, then find out that he's nowhere close to as good as Orakpo.[/B][/quote]

Don't we already know that? :)

IMO we likely will overpay for Rak, as it will take some elite money to sign him despite the fact that he has not put up elite numbers. But not to sign him creates a large hole which is very difficult to fill.

Re: Jay Gruden hired as head coach of the Redskins
 

I.......REALLY don't want this thing to go Champ Bailey on us.......

Re: Jay Gruden hired as head coach of the Redskins
 

Why is no one brining up the major injury issues for the last 3 years? Does anyone consider him an injury liabilty? I can sre us signing him, and anothrr injury next season aroung the halfway point. It wouldn't be surprising at all given the recent history. I'm a fan of rak, but lets not forget how many games have been missed since 2011.....

Re: Jay Gruden hired as head coach of the Redskins
 

you pay rak. he's here, he's working, you pay him. unless someone offers him a stupid deal like dockery got in buffalo.

Re: Jay Gruden hired as head coach of the Redskins
 

[quote=OnceWeWereKings;1056195]Why is no one brining up the major injury issues for the last 3 years? Does anyone consider him an injury liabilty? I can sre us signing him, and anothrr injury next season aroung the halfway point. It wouldn't be surprising at all given the recent history. I'm a fan of rak, but lets not forget how many games have been missed since 2011.....[/quote]

He has missed one season.Besides that one injury he has missed two games in his career if I remember correctly. Its like saying Brady is injury prone because he missed one season.

Re: Jay Gruden hired as head coach of the Redskins
 

[quote=OnceWeWereKings;1056195]Why is no one brining up the major injury issues for the last 3 years? Does anyone consider him an injury liabilty? I can sre us signing him, and anothrr injury next season aroung the halfway point. It wouldn't be surprising at all given the recent history. I'm a fan of rak, but lets not forget how many games have been missed since 2011.....[/quote]

Exaggerate much?

He's missed one season in his career.

Re: Jay Gruden hired as head coach of the Redskins
 

I apologize. I thought he hurt his shoulder/pec earlier in the 2011 season. I'm not against re-signing him by any means...just playing devils advocate. I would have fact checked myself before posting, but I was in post nyquil haze after I woke up...

Re: Jay Gruden hired as head coach of the Redskins
 

Orakpo stays, no question

Re: Jay Gruden hired as head coach of the Redskins
 

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc-sports-bog/wp/2014/01/20/jay-gruden-at-the-wizards-game/]Jay Gruden at the Wizards game[/url]

Re: Jay Gruden hired as head coach of the Redskins
 

[quote=Chico23231;1056400]Orakpo stays, no question[/quote]

Are you serious? I'm done with the Orakpo experiment! The team is 3-13 nobody is beyond reproach. If they can use Jackson/Jenkins combo until one proves a starter or use the draft to get a hybrid OLB (due to the combo 4-3, 3-4 that they run) they'll be fine.

Re: Jay Gruden hired as head coach of the Redskins
 

[quote=diehardskin2982;1056176]Not so fast my friend...

Rack is not even the best linebacker on this team. I took a look on the NFL stats Lab and compared him first to the linebackers on our team. Brian only had 10 sacks, 1 Interception, 0 FF and 60 tackles. Kerrigan had 9 sacks, 0 ints, 4 forced fumbles, and 66 tackles in a year where Kerrigan admitted that he was hurt.

[URL="http://espn.go.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/4515/kerrigan-to-have-minor-surgery-talks-4-3"]Ryan Kerrigan to have minor surgery; talks 4-3 - ESPN[/URL]

Now let's compare Rack to the best player at his position this year... Robert Quinn had 19 sacks 7 Forced Fumbles and 57 Tackles. The second best ranked free agent at the same position is Jason Worilds. He had 64 tackles, 8 sacks and 2 FF. That is not much of a drop off, also Jason is two years younger.

We could also target Michael Johnson who excelled at OLB in a 3-4 system in 2012.

All this to say that we don't need to overpay Brian Orakpo. I would argue that Perry Riley is a more important sign than Rack. Riley is our leading tackler and averaged 79.8 tackles over his four year span on the team.[/quote]

Ugh. Educate yourself please. Robert Quinn is a completely invalid comparison, he's a 4-3 DE. Meaning he rushes the passer on every down. Orakpo is a 3-4 LB, meaning sometimes he backs off in coverage. He put up 10 sacks despite not rushing every down.

Worilds is a fine comparison to make, he actually plays the same position as Orakpo. But you have to remember he lines up next to Lawrence Timmons and right behind Brett Keisel, both of those guys are very active and take a lot of pressure off Worilds. In other words, if you put Orakpo on the Steelers in place of Worilds, and put Worilds on the Redskins in place of Orakpo, the spread in sack numbers would be much larger than 8 vs 10.

Orakpo on the Steelers would still be the guy defenses would have to scheme around, and consequently the whole front seven would improve. It wouldn't look too different from when James Harrison was in his prime. Worilds is OK but nobody fears him.

Re: Jay Gruden hired as head coach of the Redskins
 

[url=http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jason-la-canfora/24414015/jay-grudens-deal-with-redskins-includes-rare-five-guaranteed-years]Jay Gruden's deal with Redskins includes rare five guaranteed years - CBSSports.com[/url]

[QUOTE=skinsfanthru&thru;1056503][url=http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jason-la-canfora/24414015/jay-grudens-deal-with-redskins-includes-rare-five-guaranteed-years]Jay Gruden's deal with Redskins includes rare five guaranteed years - CBSSports.com[/url][/QUOTE]

Lmao didn't shanny get the same??

Re: Jay Gruden hired as head coach of the Redskins
 

Yea he will get basically 4 years to show something in my opinion. Just like Mike.

Re: Jay Gruden hired as head coach of the Redskins
 

[quote=skinsfanthru&thru;1056503][URL="http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jason-la-canfora/24414015/jay-grudens-deal-with-redskins-includes-rare-five-guaranteed-years"]Jay Gruden's deal with Redskins includes rare five guaranteed years - CBSSports.com[/URL][/quote]

Poor thinking by JLC. Sure it's a 5-year guarantee but at only $4M per season I still wouldn't view it as a major commitment to Gruden. Gives him security but I'll bet this doesn't even place him in the top half of head coaching salaries per season.

Re: Jay Gruden hired as head coach of the Redskins
 

13 NFL HCs make more than $4 million/year

Re: Jay Gruden hired as head coach of the Redskins
 

[quote=SmootSmack;1056509]13 NFL HCs make more than $4 million/year[/quote]

OK yeah so barely in top half. Even with a guaranteed 5th year I don't see that as an abnormal commitment in any way.

Re: Jay Gruden hired as head coach of the Redskins
 

Most 1st time coaches don't get more than 3 guaranteed years

Re: Jay Gruden hired as head coach of the Redskins
 

[quote=skinsfanthru&thru;1056503][url=http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jason-la-canfora/24414015/jay-grudens-deal-with-redskins-includes-rare-five-guaranteed-years]Jay Gruden's deal with Redskins includes rare five guaranteed years - CBSSports.com[/url][/quote]

Why are we always doing things differently from other teams? For 20 years we've tried to do things our own unique way...and for 20 years we've been losers. Maybe it's time to do things like other teams, such as giving a "normal" contract to a first-time HC.

Oh well.

Re: Jay Gruden hired as head coach of the Redskins
 

[quote=Lotus;1056191]Don't we already know that? :)

IMO we likely will overpay for Rak, as it will take some elite money to sign him despite the fact that he has not put up elite numbers. [B]But not to sign him creates a large hole which is very difficult to fill.[/quote][/B]

Where was that hole during the 7 game win streak when he was out of the lineup?

Re: Jay Gruden hired as head coach of the Redskins
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1056515][/B]

Where was that hole during the 7 game win streak when he was out of the lineup?[/quote]

Aside from the year he was out in 2012, Rak has averaged about 60 tackles and 10 sacks a year.

Rob Jackson had 37 tackles and 4.5 sacks in 16 games in 2012.

So that's a 23 tackle and 5.5 sack difference. It's relatively easy to find someone who will put up Jackson's 4.5 sacks; it is hard to find someone who will put up 10 sacks. That hole.

Re: Jay Gruden hired as head coach of the Redskins
 

[quote=Lotus;1056513]Why are we always doing things differently from other teams? For 20 years we've tried to do things our own unique way...and for 20 years we've been losers. Maybe it's time to do things like other teams, such as giving a "normal" contract to a first-time HC.

Oh well.[/quote]

If the Skins give him a 3 yr 12 million contract I guarantee that JLC would have spun it as a sign that DS was going to yank him and that he would be looking over his shoulder every year.

Instead it gets spun as the Skins being an outlier because DS has been a "become a cancer for coaches".

DS just took a 10million dollar bite because Shanahan didn't perform, so it seems to me that he would take an 8-12million bite if it's clear the Skins need to move on, but bottomline, no media will make Gruden or Allen feel insecure regardless of the spin they try to put on it.

And Smoot thanks for the numbers, is there any place where coaching salaries are published like players. I tried spottrac but that didn't seem to have it (i was looking for Garretts which I thought would be public by now)

edit:
[url=http://sportsgmtalk.wordpress.com/head-coach-and-manager-contracts/nfl-head-coach-contracts-salaries/]NFL Head Coach Contracts & Salaries | The Front Office[/url]

this one has a decent list.

Re: Jay Gruden hired as head coach of the Redskins
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1056518]If the Skins give him a 3 yr 12 million contract I guarantee that JLC would have spun it as a sign that DS was going to yank him and that he would be looking over his shoulder every year.

Instead it gets spun as the Skins being an outlier because DS has been a "become a cancer for coaches".

DS just took a 10million dollar bite because Shanahan didn't perform, so it seems to me that he would take an 8-12million bite if it's clear the Skins need to move on, but bottomline, no media will make Gruden or Allen feel insecure regardless of the spin they try to put on it.

And Smoot thanks for the numbers, is there any place where coaching salaries are published like players. I tried spottrac but that didn't seem to have it (i was looking for Garretts which I thought would be public by now)

edit:
[url=http://sportsgmtalk.wordpress.com/head-coach-and-manager-contracts/nfl-head-coach-contracts-salaries/]NFL Head Coach Contracts & Salaries | The Front Office[/url]

this one has a decent list.[/quote]

My friend, I could give a goat's ear what JLC has to say either way.

My point is that we keep reinventing the wheel and then keep finding that our wheel is crappier than others. Seems to me that there is a lesson there.

Re: Jay Gruden hired as head coach of the Redskins
 

Some notables that I see,
hired this year
Bill OBrian got a 5 year deal
Tennessee gave Whisenhut more than 4 years, + 1m/yr more than Detroit offered.
Lovie got 4yrs + 1 option
Minnesota and Detroit are undisclosed

So for this year's batch 5 years doesn't seem way off base on the deal
Last year (from my memory)
Chip Kelly has 5 years left at 6.5 mill a year
Andy Reid has 5yrs
Philbin has 4 yrs left
Marone in Buffalo and Trestman in Chicago both have 4 years left, I think that makes theirs 5 yrs originally
Andy Reid has 5yrs

Just doesn't seem like we are as out there as JLC maybe portrayed it.

Re: Jay Gruden hired as head coach of the Redskins
 

[quote=Lotus;1056519]My friend, I could give a goat's ear what JLC has to say either way.

My point is that we keep reinventing the wheel and then keep finding that our wheel is crappier than others. Seems to me that there is a lesson there.[/quote]

I understand the sentiment. Whenever we hire a new guy, you first have to convince them that all the "better" ways really aren't. But I don't think you can just assume from a JLC article that we are being the outlier he makes us seem like. And when you look at the coaching hires of the past two years (my last post) I think it should put your mind a little at ease.

Re: Jay Gruden hired as head coach of the Redskins
 

I don't want to be Debbie Downer i swear, but am I the only one who is reminded just a little bit of the Jim Zorn hire? The situation sort of feels the same to me....a guy who all of a sudden is becoming head coach...

I think the results will be better than Zorn, but the way the situation has been handled so far makes me think of that....

Re: Jay Gruden hired as head coach of the Redskins
 

[quote=SmootSmack;1056509]13 NFL HCs make more than $4 million/year[/quote]

in the link I quoted, 12 coaches were listed at over 4mil, with Gruden at 4 that makes 13.

BUT only 4 made less while 15 were undisclosed. Are you saying that all the undisclosed amounts are less then $4mil/year, or that 13 HC's have a disclosed salary of 4m + / year?

Because I would find it odd that all 15 were under 4million, especially when you consider JJ probably was competitive to keep Garrett, and Harbaugh is listed at 7mil .

Re: Jay Gruden hired as head coach of the Redskins
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1056522]I understand the sentiment. Whenever we hire a new guy, you first have to convince them that all the "better" ways really aren't. But I don't think you can just assume from a JLC article that we are being the outlier he makes us seem like. And when you look at the coaching hires of the past two years (my last post) I think it should put your mind a little at ease.[/quote]

Again, JLC is not affecting my argument.

Crucial here is not the number of contract years but the number of guaranteed years (this is not reflected on your list).

And I'm willing to grant that this individual issue is not a big deal. But having seen us fail to reinvent the wheel again and again, every attempt to be "different" (like having a GM whose specialty is not talent evaluation and giving an unusual contract to our new HC) makes me very leery.

And I'm left with the question: why not just do things the normal way?

Re: Jay Gruden hired as head coach of the Redskins
 

[quote=SolidSnake84;1056523]I don't want to be Debbie Downer i swear, but am I the only one who is reminded just a little bit of the Jim Zorn hire? The situation sort of feels the same to me....a guy who all of a sudden is becoming head coach...

I think the results will be better than Zorn, but the way the situation has been handled so far makes me think of that....[/quote]

Gruden has been a solid contender for HC jobs this year and last year. Zorn was picked because no other options remained. That wasn't the case here because Bevel at least would have been an option to throw buckets of money at. I think an equivalent hire might have been the Dallas ST coach. Kinda out there, some reasons to think he might but overall not a strong candidate.

I don't get the knocks on Gruden, even as I sit with a wait and see approach. This guy, and most of the staff he is putting together, have won together at various stops along his football journey. Despite what JLC (and SS) seem to imply, the 5yr 20million isn't an outlier from contracts handed out and published in the last 2 years.

Will he be great, who knows, but to suggest this was close to a Zorn pick, or any other past Skins coach search seems a bit mindless to me.

(For history sake, hindsight tells us that Zorn was already on staff, we couldn't hire who DS probably wanted (Fassel), and ran out of other options, then they hired him.)

Re: Jay Gruden hired as head coach of the Redskins
 

[quote=Schneed10;1056488]Ugh. Educate yourself please... [/quote]

Ok, Robert Quinn was the wrong comparison.
The problem with you Schneed is you can't make a comment to another member without being disrespectful. At the end of the day Orakpo is not Elite. He does not deserve a Elite paying contract. The team was 3-13 and his impact didn't win us any more games than last year, regardless of how much you try to pacify him. It shouldn't matter who is around him, his job is to produce. IMO he doesn't have secondary rush moves than a bull rush. I think he can grow with the new coaching staff. But, he needs to do a mutually beneficial contract.

Re: Jay Gruden hired as head coach of the Redskins
 

[quote=Lotus;1056525]Again, JLC is not affecting my argument.

Crucial here is not the number of contract years but the number of guaranteed years.

And I'm willing to grant that this individual issue is not a big deal. But having seen us fail to reinvent the wheel again and again, every attempt to be "different" (like having a GM whose specialty is not talent evaluation and giving an unusual contract to our new HC) makes me very leery.

And I'm left with the question: why not just do things the normal way?[/quote]

but, and I tried to show it better in the one post, is that I don't think it is an unusual contract when you look at the last two years of new coach contracts. Kelly got 6.5M for 5 years guaranteed(5/32.5). Bruce Arians, a highly sought coordinator got a 4yr guarantee last year. Jim Harbaugh signed a 5yr/25mil deal in 2011.

I think, best as I can tell, the contract years are the guaranteed years. Only one was listed with an option year and that was Lovie, which brought him to 5 years but only 4 guaranteed.

I know it's frustrating, but I think the organization is trying to grind it's way to the standard model.

Re: Jay Gruden hired as head coach of the Redskins
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1056530]but, and I tried to show it better in the one post, is that I don't think it is an unusual contract when you look at the last two years of new coach contracts. Kelly got 6.5M for 5 years guaranteed(5/32.5). Bruce Arians, a highly sought coordinator got a 4yr guarantee last year. Jim Harbaugh signed a 5yr/25mil deal in 2011.

I know it's frustrating, but I think the organization is trying to grind it's way to the standard model.[/quote]

Fair enough. I see how you did the guaranteed money now.

I'll leave the "why can't we just be normal?" argument aside...for now. :)

If Belicheat wants to do something eccentric, he's earned the right. No one at Redskins Park has earned that right.

[QUOTE=Lotus;1056513]Why are we always doing things differently from other teams? For 20 years we've tried to do things our own unique way...and for 20 years we've been losers. Maybe it's time to do things like other teams, such as giving a "normal" contract to a first-time HC.

Oh well.[/QUOTE]

Idk man but it sucks losing, if Jay gruden gets fired after 3 years or 4 Idk how anyone would follow the team anymore, in fact its getting harder and harder already

Re: Jay Gruden hired as head coach of the Redskins
 

[quote=Lotus;1056531]Fair enough. I see how you did the guaranteed money now.

I'll leave the "why can't we just be normal?" argument aside...for now. :)

If Belicheat wants to do something eccentric, he's earned the right. [B] No one at Redskins Park has earned that right.[/B][/quote]

I agree with that 100%.

Re: Jay Gruden hired as head coach of the Redskins
 

[quote=Lotus;1056516]Aside from the year he was out in 2012, Rak has averaged about 60 tackles and 10 sacks a year.

Rob Jackson had 37 tackles and 4.5 sacks in 16 games in 2012.

So that's a 23 tackle and 5.5 sack difference. It's relatively easy to find someone who will put up Jackson's 4.5 sacks; it is hard to find someone who will put up 10 sacks. That hole.[/quote]

Well Jackson didn't start the entire year in 2012. I'm not saying Jackson is as good. He's not as good a pass rusher, but maybe a combo of Jackon and Jenkins can get the job done vs paying Rak 9 mil a year.

Re: Jay Gruden hired as head coach of the Redskins
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1056536]Well Jackson didn't start the entire year in 2012. I'm not saying Jackson is as good. He's not as good a pass rusher, but maybe a combo of Jackon and Jenkins can get the job done vs paying Rak 9 mil a year.[/quote]

The redskins will not sign Orakpo for 9 million. They will probably end up franchising him(11 million) and letting him show them he is worth the 12 to 13 million a year he will want. Yeah, its going to cost that kind of money to sign him.

Re: Jay Gruden hired as head coach of the Redskins
 

the bad news in FA is rak is the #1 pass rusher on the market, and it's pretty well known. he's not JJ watt, but he's still pretty good.

Re: Jay Gruden hired as head coach of the Redskins
 

[quote=That Guy;1056546]the bad news in FA is rak is the #1 pass rusher on the market, and it's pretty well known. he's not JJ watt, but he's still pretty good.[/quote]

very true..he will be targeted by teams, but i wouldn't pay him 11-12 per year. He isn't just a pass rusher though he drops in coverage too and very average at that. I know if he left it would be a big hole to fill.