Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;441645]Larry Michael is Satan:

I agree we shouldn't make the trade, but I think you're overstating your case. Chad Johnson has put up good numbers with a variety of QBs under center not named Carson Palmer. Chad is no Jerry Rice, but he's certainly among the best and most productive wideouts who are currently playing ball. As for our o-line barring injury, we're in pretty good shape for 2008.

Agreed, but when was the last time our O-line barred injury?
I think we need to spend multiple picks on the o-line this year.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

Either way after reading those articles in my last post I think it's safe to say that our draft picks are pretty safe. Reposting so it doesn't get lost in the thread.


[B]Cincinnati Bengals
[/B]Prior to his drafting there was a huge effort by the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Orleans_Saints"][COLOR=#760000]New Orleans Saints[/COLOR][/URL] head coach [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Ditka"][COLOR=#760000]Mike Ditka[/COLOR][/URL] and management to get the Bengals' high draft position so the Saints could get [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricky_Williams"][COLOR=#760000]Ricky Williams[/COLOR][/URL]. [B]The final offer, which was refused by the Bengals management, was for 9 draft picks, several extra in this year as well as many in the next year. [/B]Instead of taking the trade, the Bengals stuck with their initial decision to draft Smith, who, while undeniably athletic -- he had also played some professional baseball -- was still largely unproven, having only impressed at the college level for one season.

Smith missed large periods of [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_NFL_season"][COLOR=#760000]1999[/COLOR][/URL] pre-season training with the Bengals due to contract disputes; many pundits later speculated that his absence from this short training period hurt him immensely in the seasons to come. Despite incredible shows of athleticism in his early games, he failed to grasp the Bengals playbook fully, and never established himself with the team. Throughout the four years he was with the Bengals, he would only start in 17 games, eventually leading to his outright release in the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_NFL_season"][COLOR=#760000]2002[/COLOR][/URL] season.

Smith joined other highly drafted Bengals players such as [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Klingler"][COLOR=#760000]David Klingler[/COLOR][/URL], [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ki-Jana_Carter"][COLOR=#760000]Ki-Jana Carter[/COLOR][/URL], and [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Warrick"][COLOR=#760000]Peter Warrick[/COLOR][/URL] who as a result of injury, bad work ethic, bad management and coaching decisions, or simply poor performance, failed to live up to the high expectations that came with being selected early in the first round. Such picks are considered a major reason for the Bengals' dismal performances during the 1990s and early 2000s.

[B]Also found this:[/B]
[URL="http://bengals.enquirer.com/2000/01/16/ben_brown_calls_akili.html"][COLOR=#760000]Brown calls Akili over Saints' 9 picks 'a wash'[/COLOR][/URL]
[I]Yet, Brown is still convinced the decision to draft Smith with the third pick and turn down the New Orleans Saints' offer of nine draft choices (first and third through seventh rounds in '99, first-rounders in 2000 and 2001 and a second in 2002) will hold up under the test of time.[/I]

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;441657]Did you miss 2007?[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I saw us back into the fabulous wildcard game and get sent home.

2008: New offense, first year coach, tough schedule, won't be fully healthy, I don't see us making the playoffs. Sorry, I just don't.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan69;441650]Well if one doesn't then we should get a pass rusher.[/QUOTE]

How important a need do you think WR is and how should we solve the need?

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[QUOTE=Larry Michael is Satan;441659][QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;441645]Larry Michael is Satan:

I agree we shouldn't make the trade, but I think you're overstating your case. Chad Johnson has put up good numbers with a variety of QBs under center not named Carson Palmer. Chad is no Jerry Rice, but he's certainly among the best and most productive wideouts who are currently playing ball. As for our o-line barring injury, we're in pretty good shape for 2008.

Agreed, but when was the last time our O-line barred injury?
I think we need to spend multiple picks on the o-line this year.[/QUOTE]

Who says we can't? If we realy wanted to do we could trade our #1 for CJ and spend the next 8 picks this year all on offensive linemen.

Re: Offer made on Chad
 

[QUOTE=KB24;441486]Our defense gave up a number of big plays in winnable games (Green Bay, Buffalo, Philadelphia, New York Giants) because of a lack of a pass rush and mistakes in the secondary. Breaking the bank and mortgaging the future on a wide receiver won't fix that.[/QUOTE]

yeah and of those games you said we had the lead in the majority of them but got complicent and easied up. Rather then push it and seal the deal on offense we had terrible play calling and numerous three and outs which put our tired defense out there...I don't care what defense is out there when you play like that you set yourself up for failure.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;441667][QUOTE=Larry Michael is Satan;441659]

Who says we can't? If we realy wanted to do we could trade our #1 for CJ and spend the next 8 picks this year all on offensive linemen.[/QUOTE]

Done.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[quote=SmootSmack;441667][quote=Larry Michael is Satan;441659]

Who says we can't? If we realy wanted to do we could trade our #1 for CJ and spend the next 8 picks this year all on offensive linemen.[/quote]

I doubt this trade takes place, unless Marvin Lewis acts as a voice of reason. I think the question is do you guys think the team would fare better if they had Phillip Merling and Jordy Nelson or would the team be better off with Chad Johnson and possibly a corner or fallen 1st rounder (like Balmer or Campbell).

However right now, while sorting through all these scenarios I think it would be better if the team took Merling, Nelson, Zutah/Hills, and Bowen instead of maybe Chad Johnson, CB/S, DL, OL.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;441655]Has anyone considered the other side of this? I mean how dumb are the Bengals right now? They have a golden opportunity to cut ties with CJ and move on before training camp and before he can become even MORE of a distraction. Because you know once camp opens this story is only going to magnify. I don't see anyone offering up a better deal and if they do more power to them.

As the PTI guys just put it, it seems the Bengals are cutting off their nose to spite their face right now.[/QUOTE]

I definitely see your point. I think the fear is that if the team lets Chad go, TJ may raise hell too. Supposedly neither receiver is happy. I'll defer to people in the know (i.e., SS).

On the other hand, the inmates have been running the asylum in Cincy and I think Marvin knows he has to get control of the team. Moreover, Chad has never categorically said he would not, under any circumstances, play for the team. I think Marvin and the Bengals F.O. is hoping this is a Briggs situation that will blow over by September.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[quote=Larry Michael is Satan;441664]Yeah, I saw us back into the fabulous wildcard game and get sent home.

2008: New offense, first year coach, tough schedule, won't be fully healthy, I don't see us making the playoffs. Sorry, I just don't.[/quote]

Yes they backed in with 4 straight wins... right.

Who won't be fully healthy?

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;441677]I definitely see your point. I think the fear is that if the team lets Chad go, TJ may raise hell too. Supposedly neither receiver is happy. I'll defer to people in the know (i.e., SS).

On the other hand, the inmates have been running the asylum in Cincy and I think Marvin knows he has to get control of the team. Moreover, Chad has never categorically said he would not, under any circumstances, play for the team. I think Marvin and the Bengals F.O. is hoping this is a Briggs situation that will blow over by September.[/quote]

They're taking an awfully big chance if they think it's going to blow over. If this only gets worse for them they'll look like complete idiots come September considering they had a chance to get rid of him for good value.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

Ultimately, I'm looking at the "big" picture. Again, I'm not doubting his talents and his abilities. I agree that he's an elite wide receiver. I also agree that he'd help our offense. And I can admit that I'm biased towards him because his touchdown celebrations turn me off. To me, he makes himself look like he did everything himself to get the touchdown instead of it being a TEAM effort (re: Faux Hall of Fame jacket). But, my main problem with this deal is what the Redskins are going to have to give up to acquire him.

Most of the people who want to trade for Chad Johnson most likely are the same people who feel we're just one player away from being a Super Bowl contender. Ever since Snyder took over the team, the attitude has been blast the future and win now. Give up draft picks to get established star players. That's all well and good. But, giving away all those draft picks the way we do comes at the cost of much-needed depth that could be filled by young, hungry players with something to prove. Ultimately, when we have a rash of injuries -- like we did last season -- it's more devastating to the Redskins because there's no proven commodity to plug in that hole and they're forced to scramble to find talent off the scrap heap instead of going to someone whom we've groomed for moments like this and, ultimately, to take over the position(s). This makes EVERY draft pick that much more crucial because the Redskins have a team full of stars with very little in the way of "proven" back-ups. Again, I go back to how well teams like New England, Indianapolis, Pittsburgh and the Giants have performed in the draft. The Giants won the Super Bowl with ALL of its 2007 draft picks and the other three teams have seen MOST of their draft picks become solid contributors to their championships.

Giving up two more picks -- potential, long-term solutions -- to win now with someone who, in three years, if not sooner, may start to decline is a price this team cannot afford to pay. What difference will having an elite wide receiver make if the aging, injury-prone offensive line gets nicked again and there are no quality back-ups to pick up the slack? What difference will having an elite wide receiver make if we have no pass rush outside of Andre Carter and a secondary with LOTS of question marks. While Chad Johnson may put up GREAT numbers while he's here and be a model citizen, other than selling more shirts and putting more fannies in seats, he won't address the long-term solutions this team needs to start addressing if it wants to return to the days of being a consistent winner. I also look at the fact that, for all his great numbers, the Bengals haven't been to the playoffs since 2005 while the Skins have appeared in the post-season twice during that time without him. If the Bengals were a legit Super Bowl contender, maybe I'd pull the trigger on this deal.

The Redskins are FULL of holes and they need EVERY draft pick they can get to fix those holes and build for the future. Giving up a first and conditional third is too steep a price for this team.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[quote=SmootSmack;441665]How important a need do you think WR is and how should we solve the need?[/quote]
I think we need a big, physical wideout to complement our small, fast guys. However, in the WCO a dominant WR is not necessary to have a productive offense (Seattle, GB, Philly). I think draft a WR in the third and see who develops (Mix, McMullen) or who comes available June 1.

I don't like giving up a #1 for CJ. He is one of the better WRs in the NFL but he is over 30, wants a very large contract, and his personality is not what a first time HC or young QB need.

Johnson also "disappears" for multiple games at a time. His numbers are misleading, he will explode in a couple of games and then do little or nothing for 3-4 weeks.

Look at it this way, we have large contracts already at WR. How many plays is a WR involved in per game, 8-10 normally? What about DE, DT, OL, LB, CB. They are involved in about 55 plays per game. If we didn't have the needs at so many other positions and were a "player away", then the move makes sense. Right now it just doesn't.

Just say "No!" to Ocho Cinco. Good for us the Bengals are hard-headed (or don't want to take the $ 8M cap hit).

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

[QUOTE=Dirtbag359;441675]

I doubt this trade takes place, unless Marvin Lewis acts as a voice of reason. I think the question is do you guys think the team would fare better if they had Phillip Merling and Jordy Nelson or would the team be better off with Chad Johnson and possibly a corner or fallen 1st rounder (like Balmer or Campbell).

However right now, while sorting through all these scenarios I think it would be better if the team took Merling, Nelson, Zutah/Hills, and Bowen instead of maybe Chad Johnson, CB/S, DL, OL.[/QUOTE]

Good post. What if you could "combine the two."

Suppose you could trade this year's first for two of the Falcons' 2nd rounders? And you trade next year's 1st and maybe this year's 3rd for CJ? Then you get your WR in CJ then early in the second you can draft someone like DE Jackson and DB Porter?

Overall this isn't an easy decision, but what we're forgetting (or ignoring) is that we have so many options in front of us to make a decision. Unlike other years where we didn't even have that luxury.

I can respect the opinion that there may be better ways to use our picks than to send a first for CJ. But I find it extremely difficult to respect the opinion that this spells the end of our franchise because this one move is going to prevent us from doing anything else for the rest of this off-season.

Re: Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)
 

thank God the bengals SAVED US FROM OURSELVES,I dont want this T.O. wannabe.I cant believe some of the people on this board sticking up for this guy,just blows my mind.He's a cancer just waiting to grow.Certain members of the board have said its not about the money with cj,its about thw winning,then how come every article or newscast I read about cj says its about the money? How come the coach of the bengals himself said it was about the money? this is his qoute
:He's stated without an opportunity to go to a different team and a NEW CONTRACT, he wasn't going to play. I think he's a man of his word and says he's not going to play, so don't play."

Like I said before,if the bengals gave him a new contract he would say I never wanted to leave anyway,I love cincy
I sure as hell hope the bengals stick to their guns and make this asshole sit out a yr,maybe that will make the next guy think twice before trying this shit,f-ck him,f-ck him,f-ck him