Soooo, for each of us, what is the breaking point for Gibbs?

Regardless of how Brunell plays on Monday night, this QB thing is a nightmare for the Skins. No one thinks Mark Brunnel is the future of the Skins, even for this season. At best, he'll play mediocre and win a few games. In the meantime, we destroyed what little progress Ramsey made in the offseason, and when he gets the call when Brunnel gets injured, and he will get the call, then the crap is gonna really hit the fan. I think the fans question Gibbs because this latest move was just so unlike him. It really makes you question what was once the unquestionable: Can you really take Joe Gibbs at his word?

Gibbs will be until either the last day of his contract, or after winning his fourth championship. At that time, he will annoint Greg Williams as the new Skins head coach, or if he is gone already, probably Gregg Blache.

The team is in turmoil??? Only for the media and some of the fans. Brunell has a huge chip on his shoulder after his horrible performance last season, and will prove that he is still a good (not great, but solid) QB.

Also, what will all the people questioning Gibbs say if (WHEN) Brunell leads the Redskins to a victory over the Cowturds on Monday night???

All the Gibbs "naysayers" will mysteriously get amnesia about all the their "GIVE RAMSEY A CHANCE..." talk, that's what will happen.

Quote me on this one!

Also, what will all the people questioning Gibbs say if (WHEN) Brunell leads the Redskins to a victory over the Cowturds on Monday night???

"wow, the line and Portis looked great. bet Ramsey would have scored more touchdowns.." ?

To me, crunch time for the Washington Redskins is now. We are only competitive thanks to our D. Our D is only good because of the scheming and coaching of Gregg Williams. Once the D goes, we are toast. Williams will not be here much longer. Yes, he had a tough time of it in Buffalo, but he will be one of the most sought after coaches for a HC job next offseason if our D is again in the top 5. I am a fan of the Skins since 1981, and normally Gibbs would get a huge leash in my opinion as a Head Coach. The problem is, this time around Gibbs isn't just wearing the Head Coach cap, he's calling the shots on personnel as well, and we have been giving away draft picks like they were candy at Halloween. Look at the Eagles and the Pats, great teams are built through the draft, those mid round picks especially are vital. When you take into consideration Gibbs total job performance, he's leash has to be shorter. Throw in this last debacle and I just don't know.
But you have to give Gibbs the personnel man credit for bringing in Williams and the rest of the coaching staff. Not to mention signing or drafting players like Portis, Taylor, Cooley, Springs, Griffen, Daniels, etc. Arguements about team management in terms of FA and trades vs. the draft can be made (about ANY team) until people are blue in the face. The only exception is NE due to their success....the Eagles have resorted to signing high priced FA's and are starting to pay the price like other teams.
If Williams were to leave, I could see Blache taking over with little to no drop off...especially after a few years in the same system.
Also, I would hardly call this QB switch a "debacle"...

To me, crunch time for the Washington Redskins is now. We are only competitive thanks to our D. Our D is only good because of the scheming and coaching of Gregg Williams. Once the D goes, we are toast. Williams will not be here much longer. Yes, he had a tough time of it in Buffalo, but he will be one of the most sought after coaches for a HC job next offseason if our D is again in the top 5. I am a fan of the Skins since 1981, and normally Gibbs would get a huge leash in my opinion as a Head Coach. The problem is, this time around Gibbs isn't just wearing the Head Coach cap, he's calling the shots on personnel as well, and we have been giving away draft picks like they were candy at Halloween. Look at the Eagles and the Pats, great teams are built through the draft, those mid round picks especially are vital. When you take into consideration Gibbs total job performance, he's leash has to be shorter. Throw in this last debacle and I just don't know.

A big reason Bobby Beathard left us was his disagreements with Gibbs on personel, Beathard wanted to use the draft and his ability to evaluate talent to bring in young players, and Gibbs wanted seasoned veterans, Gibbs wanted to go with what he believed was a sure thing, Beathard had wanted to draft Icky Woods, [how it actually panned out I am a little vague] but Gibbs wantes Byner and Riggs, while giving up Mike Olyphant a Beathard draftee and some picks, and in so doing lost out on Icky, it was something along those lines, and the comment Beathard made at the time was " well joe got his running backs " showing his displeasure for not being able to get Gibbs a back in the draft who turned out to be rookie of the year, but Beathard knew he couldn't fight with joe because of his untouchable status at the time so he left.

For all those who believe Gibbs is infalible, Gibbs in his first hands on draft went and drafted Desmond Howard when at the time we really needed defensive line help, we traded 2 #1's in that draft to move up to take Desmond, at the time I hated it because I wanted Chester McGloughtin a D-tackle, and carl pickens at WR, both whom were avail with our original picks, both went on to become pro bowlers, while Desmond did nothing for us, then Gibbs retired leaving us with Desmond who was never anything more than a kick returner, and considering we had B.Mitchell, and daryl Green, that was pretty much a waste, and a D-line of swiss cheese. Does anyone here think Beathard would have been trading up fo Campbell, or giving up 42 mil and a second rd pick for Brunell? I don't think so! This was a GM who drafted 3 pro bowl QB's third rd or later.

Bottom line Gibbs hasen't won without Beathard but Beathard has won without Gibbs. I believe Gibbs is having a real problem evaluating talent for his own style of coaching.

Regardless of how Brunell plays on Monday night, this QB thing is a nightmare for the Skins. No one thinks Mark Brunnel is the future of the Skins, even for this season. At best, he'll play mediocre and win a few games. In the meantime, we destroyed what little progress Ramsey made in the offseason, and when he gets the call when Brunnel gets injured, and he will get the call, then the crap is gonna really hit the fan. I think the fans question Gibbs because this latest move was just so unlike him. It really makes you question what was once the unquestionable: Can you really take Joe Gibbs at his word?

Gibbs wants to do one thing: WIN FOOTBALL GAMES!!! That's what he is paid to do. So if that means changing his mind and "going against his word", so be it.
You are right though, Brunell is not the long-term answer. He is here to hold the job while playing soldi until someone else steps up...presumably Ramsey this year or more likely Campbell in a season or two. I disagree about Ramsey though. He will play to the best of his ability if he needs to go back in. He is a team guy, and assuming his Redskin days are numbered, his performance affects his value if he is to be released or traded.

If Williams were to leave, I could see Blache taking over with little to no drop off...especially after a few years in the same system.
Also, I would hardly call this QB switch a "debacle"...

i hope to god what you say about little drop off in our defense if Williams leaves is true. lets hope he doesnt.

and whether it was naming and practicing Ramsey as starter without being truly convinced, or switching to a 35yr old QB who was the worst in the NFL the year before, 19 minutes into the season...trust me...whatever it is, it's a DEBACLE.

Gibbs wants to do one thing: WIN FOOTBALL GAMES!!! That's what he is paid to do. So if that means changing his mind and "going against his word", so be it.
You are right though, Brunell is not the long-term answer. He is here to hold the job while playing soldi until someone else steps up...presumably Ramsey this year or more likely Campbell in a season or two. I disagree about Ramsey though. He will play to the best of his ability if he needs to go back in. He is a team guy, and assuming his Redskin days are numbered, his performance affects his value if he is to be released or traded.

Oh I think Ramsey will give effort, I just don't think his performance will be good based on no reps with the first team and confidence that may never come back. The kid will try, I just don't think there is any way he will succeed with our team now.....ever.

A big reason Bobby Beathard left us was his disagreements with Gibbs on personel, Beathard wanted to use the draft and his ability to evaluate talent to bring in young players, and Gibbs wanted seasoned veterans, Gibbs wanted to go with what he believed was a sure thing, Beathard had wanted to draft Icky Woods, [how it actually panned out I am a little vague] but Gibbs wantes Byner and Riggs, while giving up Mike Olyphant a Beathard draftee and some picks, and in so doing lost out on Icky, it was something along those lines, and the comment Beathard made at the time was " well joe got his running backs " showing his displeasure for not being able to get Gibbs a back in the draft who turned out to be rookie of the year, but Beathard knew he couldn't fight with joe because of his untouchable status at the time so he left.

For all those who believe Gibbs is infalible, Gibbs in his first hands on draft went and drafted Desmond Howard when at the time we really needed defensive line help, we traded 2 #1's in that draft to move up to take Desmond, at the time I hated it because I wanted Chester McGloughtin a D-tackle, and carl pickens at WR, both whom were avail with our original picks, both went on to become pro bowlers, while Desmond did nothing for us, then Gibbs retired leaving us with Desmond who was never anything more than a kick returner, and considering we had B.Mitchell, and daryl Green, that was pretty much a waste, and a D-line of swiss cheese. Does anyone here think Beathard would have been trading up fo Campbell, or giving up 42 mil and a second rd pick for Brunell? I don't think so! This was a GM who drafted 3 pro bowl QB's third rd or later.

Bottom line Gibbs hasen't won without Beathard but Beathard has won without Gibbs. I believe Gibbs is having a real problem evaluating talent for his own style of coaching.
Didn't we win a Superbowl with Byner and Riggs??? Icky lost one, then pretty much disappeared into obscurity. As for Howard, everyone always harps on this pick as the big example of Gibbs' failure as a personnel guy, but nobody knows how he would have developed if Gibbs hadn't have retired after his rookie year. Also, those first two picks last year were sure a waste....
Ok, I'm not saying Gibbs is infallible, but people are always so quick to judge when they just need to have a little patience to see how things play out. Gibbs is changing the mentality and atmosphere of the team from the high-spending business to a real TEAM, where everyone is in it to win, not just to get paid. That takes time....and we've already seen some progress.
Yes, Beathard has won without Gibbs. But Gibbs was completely out of football before last year, so I'd say the jury is still out on if Gibbs can win without Beathard. Actually, he did win, in a completely different "sport" that he knew very little about when he first got started with it, so I'd put my money on Gibbs winning!

Guys let's face it, Ramsey wasn't Gibbs' choice from the very start. So to be concerned with how Ramsey is going to deal with this long term is silly. Campbell is his long term choice, and Brunell is in for the short term.