Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015

Still think lil Danny isn't making decisions on the field as well?Easy kemosabe, lol.

There is a far cry from the OWNER of the team being included in the decision making process to the owner "making decisions on the field". You understand that those aren't the same thing right? Also, remember how this whole exchange started? YOU said that it was a "fact" that Jay wanted to start Cousins at the beginning of the season. I said that did not meet the definition of a fact to most people. Nothing you have said since then changes that speculation into fact. And like I said, even if it were a "fact" then the very notion that a new HC wanted to bench the then potential franchise QB before ever playing him in 1 regular season game is crazy and is something that should be disconcerting to all fans.


First off, I never said that his in-experience was the ONLY issue at hand. I said it was a fact that Griffin struggled due to his in-experience with a pro-style offense, not because of Jay's faith in RG....Good we're getting somewhere. We agree that Griffin's inexperience was an issue, just not the only issue.

My point is that inconjunction with Griffin's inexperience Jay's lack of faith played a large role in Griffin's struggles. Jay's lack of faith in Griffin, as you pointed out, was apparent early during Jay's regime even before the start of the regular season. Jay is the HC and playcaller paired up with a rookie OC is at the wheel of the offense. His vision guides the gameplan, playcalling and coaching. How can Jay's lack of faith in Griffin not impact the gameplan, playcalling and coaching as it pertain to Griffin a player that the HC, playcaller and OC lack faith in?

If Robert performed bad because he was worried about Jay's faith in him, it would say a lot about him and he probably shouldn't be in the NFL.Clear strawman.

No, Robert is arrogant as noted by his attitude and why two coaches have had difficulty trying to get through to him.Maybe Robert is arrogant maybe he isn't. Personally I think Robert's level of arrogance is unknowable from our vantage point and based on what I've read about Robert I find it very hard to believe that Robert's level of arrogance is an issue. Certainly isn't an issue worth discussion for me.

I'm not going back over the cess pool of scapegoating and blameshifting that happened with Mike Shanahan.

You can chase these rabbits on your own. I've already entertained more of your speculations and perceptions then I intended.


Also, to mention Cam's rookie season is laughable. You do realize they ran a read option type offense like we did right? It wasn't a pro-style in the slightest.You obviously missed my point. My point is that Cam's rookie season was a huge success because they catered the offense to him. Of course it wasn't pro-style, that is my entire point. Cam was far from pro-style but the catered the offense to him and had success.

One last thing, how can you deem play calling an issue? Do you know what defenses were called? Do you know the counter to them? Who's the say the players didn't execute the play while the call was the right one? I'm not saying it didn't play an issue but do you really know for sure or guessing?I know this is pointless but anyhow....I could go in depth about playcalling theory and philosophy but that would be a long discussion since we would be starting from square one. But I'll leave you with this. Every OC in the league can draw up plays that work. Heck they all work on paper. But the heart of coaching is understanding which Xs and Os maximize your personnel. That didn't happen last year. Look at all the changes the rhetoric thus far points to...more commitment to the run game, more play-action, more movement passes, more "tweaks" (as Kiem put it) to cater to Griffin. If those weren't issues last year then why change?

Bruce and especially Dan were really the only key people in the organization who wanted to start RG3 week 1. It was painfully obvious to everyone that RG3 was not ready. That wasn't Jay giving up on him so much as seeing how far he had to go and knowing he has 52 other guys to worry about. Griffin was terrible last summer. There's no getting around that. He just was

There is a far cry from the OWNER of the team being included in the decision making process to the owner "making decisions on the field". You understand that those aren't the same thing right?

That wasn't meant that Dan is included in game planning or he's up in the box with a headset on or making the starting roster. I merely meant that Snyder meddles with things even as far as who the starting QB should be.

And like I said, even if it were a "fact" then the very notion that a new HC wanted to bench the then potential franchise QB before ever playing him in 1 regular season game is crazy and is something that should be disconcerting to all fans.

Personally, I think Jay didn't realize how much work Robert really needed. How can you tell really until you get in there and see for yourself. That and Jay probably said what he needed to in order to land the job. I'm not discounting that fact either. He very well could have pulled a bait and switch on Danny. Especially seeing as how his brother Jon didn't really care for Robert's QB ability. Maybe Dan is right about him stealing money. Seems a lot of people do that to Dan. (except the fans)


Jay is the HC and playcaller paired up with a rookie OC is at the wheel of the offense. His vision guides the gameplan, playcalling and coaching. How can Jay's lack of faith in Griffin not impact the gameplan, playcalling and coaching as it pertain to Griffin a player that the HC, playcaller and OC lack faith in?

His faith in Robert would definitely impact the game plan, there is no doubt to that. His lack of faith in Robert shouldn't dictate the play by Robert though. There is a difference. Jay knows that he's not going to be able to run certain things if Griffin doesn't grasp the offense or can go through progressions like he's supposed to. He'll have to cater to what Robert does do good, which is play action and roll outs. However, when you limit your chances of succeeding as well. It also doesn't help when you are forced to play an individual that directly impacts your offense negatively. The object here is to win, not develop Robert. Developing Robert should have begin in years 1 and 2 with him on THE BENCH LIKE I SAID LONG AGO. It still pisses me off to no end they did what they did. Little Danny had to have his shiny new toy though.


I'm not going back over the cess pool of scapegoating and blameshifting that happened with Mike Shanahan.

You don't have to, but you should heed the words of a man who's coached the likes of Elway, Montana and Young. I think he was more honest than not the past couple interviews he did.


Look at all the changes the rhetoric thus far points to...more commitment to the run game, more play-action, more movement passes, more "tweaks" (as Kiem put it) to cater to Griffin. If those weren't issues last year then why change?

Here is the problem. They tailored an offense around Griffin's abilities and won. However, Griffin didn't want to run that offense. This had been clearly backed up by multiple inside sources (direct and indirect) during that 2012 year. Griffin wanted to be a pocket passer and didn't want to run the offense tailored to him. He saw himself as a Peyton Manning, but never wanted to put in the film room time that Peyton Manning did. He knew the RO wasn't going to keep him around long health wise. Yes I believe Shanny when he said Robert came in there with blessing from the owner on what to run that following off-season. Yes I believe Shanny when he said that he wasn't ready for a conventional offense yet, but had the ability to do it eventually. So this still falls on Robert somewhat for not being coach-able. This is two coaches now that has said the exact same thing. He better get on board fast because the clock is ticking on his career and it's about over. He isn't going to get another forced starting gig in the NFL after this. Can he do it? Certainly. Will he? No idea. I hope for our sakes he does. It'll mean we are most likely winning.

Bruce and especially Dan were really the only key people in the organization who wanted to start RG3 week 1. It was painfully obvious to everyone that RG3 was not ready. That wasn't Jay giving up on him so much as seeing how far he had to go and knowing he has 52 other guys to worry about. Griffin was terrible last summer. There's no getting around that. He just was


...and that's the problem in its entirety. A dumbass owner who would fuck up the team's chances of winning just so his new toy could succeed. Yeah..fuck those other 52 guys and winning. I just want to be right on my call to make the RGIII trade! The more and more I see about Dan forcing the Robert issue, the more I believe Shanahan that it was in fact Dan/Bruce that wanted that trade. The problem with people like that is they don't understand that sunk costs are what they are. Sunk.

I'm torn about it, because I get the investment made in Griffin and I don't think either Cousins or McCoy could ever reach what Griffin is capable of. On the one hand you let your coaches coach, on the other it's your right (perhaps duty) to step in when you see he's making a clear mistake. Gruden, or someone close to Gruden, seemed to have gotten in his head that he could win sooner with one of the other two. But at what cost? This team wasn't going to the playoffs? Why not put RG3 out there and get him the experience he needed. But Cousins was playing well and it's hard to tell the other guys you're not going to go with the hot hand.

The way Gruden saw it, Cousins could start, McCoy could be ready if/when needed and RG3 could sit and learn. Owner, somewhat understandably, wasn't having it.

I'm torn about it, because I get the investment made in Griffin and I don't think either Cousins or McCoy could ever reach what Griffin is capable of. On the one hand you let your coaches coach, on the other it's your right (perhaps duty) to step in when you see he's making a clear mistake. Gruden, or someone close to Gruden, seemed to have gotten in his head that he could win sooner with one of the other two. But at what cost? This team wasn't going to the playoffs? Why not put RG3 out there and get him the experience he needed. But Cousins was playing well and it's hard to tell the other guys you're not going to go with the hot hand.

The way Gruden saw it, Cousins could start, McCoy could be ready if/when needed and RG3 could sit and learn. Owner, somewhat understandably, wasn't having it.

I can understand both sides from last year. But at this point McCoy isn't anything more than he is and Cousins has a major issue that I don't know if he will ever be able to coached out of.

RG III has the upside that we need to start seeing this year or its time to go in a new direction all together. Which would suck ...

Bruce and especially Dan were really the only key people in the organization who wanted to start RG3 week 1. It was painfully obvious to everyone that RG3 was not ready. That wasn't Jay giving up on him so much as seeing how far he had to go and knowing he has 52 other guys to worry about. Griffin was terrible last summer. There's no getting around that. He just wasThat to me is insane on so many levels. First, what the hell kind of vetting process occured to hire a HC that wasn't on board with developing the franchise's greatest assest a real shot? That is speaks to an insane level of incompetence.

To have an organization split with the coaching staff and the ownership being of 2 separate minds on such an important issue that early into the season is nuts. Its no wonder the season was a debacle. The HC-playcaller-QB dynamic is vital part of team success. If the HC-playcaller doesn't believe in the QB from that early in the season its not going to work. Here's another nugget. The Viking's game came on short week following the monday night game. Smoot correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it rumored that Dan had a role in Griffin playing that week? Now, being a short week, from what I know NFL teams often keep the same gameplan with only minor tweaks because of lack of time. Now the Viking's vs Tampa game is a clear example of how Jay's lack of faith/support impacts the gameplan, playcalling and coaching. Griffin had a good game vs the Vikings. With basically all the cards stacked against him. Coming off an injury, playing in short week of game prep and rumored of being forced into the line-up. Now compare that to the Tampa Bay game. Coming off a bye week, with ample time for a complete gameplan and Griffin not only had the worst game of his career but looked u n p r e p a r e d in the process. That's what happens when a Hc-playcaller doesn't beleive in the player he's gameplanning or calling plays for. Tacitly or unwittingly he's preparing that player to fail because he already doesn't think the player can do it. He's already discarding some plays that might work because he doesn't give the player the benefit of the doubt. I could go on but this post is getting way longer then I intended so I apologize in advance for the wall of text run on nature.

Even without having any insider information and simply from watching the games I knew there was something amiss with Jay-Griffin pairing from a coaching perspective. Starting from the few snaps Griffin took in preseason to Jay's tepid at best comments towards Griffin (even after he played well) compared to his more supportive comments about Kirk/Colt (even after being shut-out against the Rams). I think everyone knew there was something amiss given his comments towards Griffin after the Tampa game.

I think some of us can agree that Jay didn't want Griffin or at least didn't believe in Griffin from early on in their relationship. But, unlike most, I put the majority of the blame for that situation on the coach. Harbaugh drafted Kaepernick to be his guy. But he coached up Alex Smith and got the most out of him even though Smith wasn't his guy. That's coaching. But I digress.
At the end of the season I though why in the hell repeat this mess of forcing a QB on a HC? My thinking was this: if you choose to keep Jay let him choose his QB and move on with his regime as he sees fit. Allow him to sink or swim with his chosen QBs. Get whatever value you can for Griffin and move forward with the organization being on 1 accord, 1 mindset. Don't allow Jay to use Griffin as a shield. To me the irony of last season was that without Jay having Griffin to kick around he would have looked even worse because his chosed QBs didn't get it done. Kirk threw picks that cost games, Colt was ran the offense best he could but was also shut-out (which didn't happen to either Kirk nor Griffin even as poorly as they played) and Colt got injured.

Also, I remember, even recently, John Keim saying that Griffin was the best looking QB in camp last year and that Kirk nor Colt blew him away last year. Outside of Theisman very few sports media were saying that Kirk was challenging for the starting spot. But even assuming that Kirk and Colt looked better isn't that in itself cause for concern?

Lets not forget that Kirk at no point (prior to Jay) performed better then Griffin. Even when the Shanahan's benched Griffin and wanted to prop Kirk he lost all his starts and didn't post better numbers. In fact Cousins stats were terrible pre-Gruden. Numbers don't add up for Kirk Cousins believers | Comcast SportsNet Washington (http://www.csnwashington.com/redskinsblog/numbers-dont-add-kirk-cousins-believers)
"Of all the signal callers with at least 150 pass attempts in 2013, Cousins ranked dead last in Passer Rating at 58.4. Behind Cousins came the Jets' Geno Smith at 66.5 and the Raiders' Terrelle Pryor at 69.1. Griffin came in at 82.2, not impressive, yet still significantly better than Cousins."

I completely disagree with the narrative that Jay was giving up on Griffin for the sake of the other 52. To me that's BS. COACH! That's what he's here to do, he's not a bystander he's the director, the chef, he's in charge of the operation he's responsible for the product. If Jay underestimated the task that's no one's fault but his own and maybe Bruce depending on who had the final say on building a staff without a QB coach and pairing a rookie HC with a rookie OC.

Everyone seems to accept the notion Jay was ready to give up Griffin heading into week 1 without really ever questioning whether it was right for a brand new HC to give up on the potential franchise QB without ever seeing a regular season snap. C'mon. That's crazy.

Either way I'm glad to hear of a seeming paradigm shift in both rhetoric and philosophy. But (1) it doesn't erase Jay's lack of belief last year and at the end of the day Jay is still the HC and playcaller (2) real games have yet to be played.

I have never wanted to be more dead wrong about anything Redskins related.
But, Jay's lack of belief in Griffin imho doom Griffin as player here.

:bdh:

His faith in Robert would definitely impact the game plan, there is no doubt to that. His lack of faith in Robert shouldn't dictate the play by Robert though.It might not "dictate" but it certainly impacts the result.

As an instructor and former youth coach I can tell you without a doubt that belief or lack of thereof in a player or student can become a self fulfilling prophesy. And clearly there are things that Jay didn't do last year that had negtive impact on Griffin's performance. We've been over some of them and many of them are things the staff and media have already made talking points about how they're gonna change this year. The same concepts and philosophy that could have been used to develop Griffin are many of the same concepts that are part of winning formula. Run the ball, which we didn't do enough. Use more play-action, which we didn't do enough. Move the pocket, which we didn't do enough. Throw mix in more screen game, which we didn't do enough. The problem is those concepts aren't how Jay called his offense last year and don't neccesarily fit his vision of his offense. Maybe he's changed. Time will tell. But to say that Jay's faith in Griffin would definitely impact the gameplan then by extention it impacts the result.






Here is the problem. They tailored an offense around Griffin's abilities and won. However, Griffin didn't want to run that offense. This had been clearly backed up by multiple inside sources (direct and indirect) during that 2012 year. Griffin wanted to be a pocket passer and didn't want to run the offense tailored to him. He saw himself as a Peyton Manning, but never wanted to put in the film room time that Peyton Manning did. He knew the RO wasn't going to keep him around long health wise. Yes I believe Shanny when he said Robert came in there with blessing from the owner on what to run that following off-season. Here we go with this slanted narrative. Beginning of 2013 fresh off recovering from a shredded knee would you want to be running read-option to start the season? Is that so crazy that a kid, and he is a kid, would be wary even nervous about it? And guess what? Coaches are paid the big dollars to handle situations like that. Everyone acts like the resulting outcome had to be bad following whatever Griffin said about not wanting to run read option to start the season after recovering from a torn MCL/LCL whatever. It could have been something as simple as "..hey kid I understand. You tore up your knee and you're nervous maybe even scared about...blah..blah soothing father figure arm on the shoulder we're in this together moment". Then deal with the owner later. Whatever. Shanny handled it poorly and he's done and rightfully so.

Also to put facts on the table Griffin DID IN FACT RUN READ OPTION AS EARLY AS WEEK 4 of the 2013 season. Yet for some reason the tiny little fact that Griffin actually ran read-option that year gets over looked. Your boy, Shanny even said that Griffin came to him and said ~coach I'm ready to run it now.

Yes I believe Shanny when he said that he wasn't ready for a conventional offense yet, but had the ability to do it eventually. So this still falls on Robert somewhat for not being coach-able. This is two coaches now that has said the exact same thing.Huh? Back to double talking Shanny. Yes he did say Griffin's transtion would take time so we hired a HC that didn't hire a QB coach and decided he was ready to give up on the transition process before the regular season starts. And that's Griffin's fault for being uncoachable?

Its been an interesting look into how the otherside thinks. But at this point, i guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

I agree with you 30 gut and I hope that we don't ruin RG III here because of a stupid hire of a HC.