Does character count?

So what are you defending Daseal? That he's a nice guy??

You've said he was stupid for what happened, isn't that the basic point here?

Man, if this happened to LaVar or Taylor we would be having a field day. We already give both of them the 3rd degree for things like changing their numbers or speaking out in the press.

To me, his actions and words put his character in question. There's not much that he's done to make me think otherwise.

Weren't some of the people now bashing TO for his holdout and his "me first" attitude the same people supporting him in his "me first" touchdown celebrations? Does anyone else besides me think they are just two symptoms the same core problem? TO's deep and abiding love for himself.

Why does the NFL put up w/ TO type players? 'Cause fans want to see 'em. They want to watch them make athletic plays and then watch them dance. All the time focusing attention on themselves and not their teammates (Who was it who threw those 14 TD's to you, Owens? And for those dancing DE's, Who was it that ate up two blockers so you could get a clean shot at the QB?).

So the next time a player pulls some diva crap ON the field and you applaud/support or otherwise condone it; Don't bitch when they pull the same crap OFF the field.

I agree with that for the most part. TO wants people to eat his shit, and people do. I do agree that a lot of it has to do with the fans. I'm going to make a bold statement, completely without bias when I say that Redskins fans are some of the more intelligent, civilized fans of any team that I know of. I don't think that any of us would put up with or cheer for any TO dances in the end zone if we were unfortunate enough to have him on our team.

I would like to think that the majority of fans for every team would never want anyone like TO or Randy Moss.

Im not defending his actions - I think it's foolish to think someone has a bad character because of a mistake. Riding a motorcycle too fast at age 21... Amazing. Where's the "Who didn't do stupid thigns when they were young." post? The same one we see for every Redskins player. It was stupid without a doubt - it doesn't make him a bad person.

Then I think you're going way too easy on someone who is paid millions and millions of dollars. The whole reason he's paid so much money is because the city of Cleveland is willing to pay so much to go see him play and help their team win. He hasn't just let down his teammates, he has let down the fans of the Cleveland Browns. When you're paid that much money, you're held to a higher standard. It's a fact of life.

I agree with both of you (if that's possible). I agree that people do stupid things when they're young. Taylor hasn't started off problem-free yet.

However, I agree with Schneed in the fact that you ARE held to a higher-standard when people are paying your million dollar salary.

I wouldn't want my politicians (just an example, I hate politicians) getting wasted every weekend or doing equally stupid actions that affect what WE pay them to do.

On the subject of character, I agree with Daseal that what he did doesn't make him a bad person. It's just like he is a patron son of Cleveland and that they should be disappointed in him, but not disown him.

I just don't flat out understand all the haters for players like TO. Sure they are out for themselves and do things many just don't like. All of them have one quality that we can say we haven't had in awhile. That is that they win. Moss, R. Williams, T.O. they were always on a winning team and made there team better. Players like that are few and far between anything you will see. They are gamebreakers and are at the top of the league every year. They make people on the team better. Love em' or hate em', but you better resepct them cause odds are there gonna get theres. I am one of the few if not only one who has no problem with T.O. he is an amazing player and he can do whatever he wants in my opinion. As for KWII, so what he called out the redskins cause we didn't draft him. People here are way to uptight over this guy. Players have been calling out teams for years and years. Like Aaron Rodgeers calling out the Niners. It will always happen and will continue. I can't judge him cause he has only played like 1 and 3 quarters in his career. I'm sure I'll get some great replies. I know I am new school and a lot of ol' schoolers don't agree with it, but oh well.

I agree with both of you (if that's possible). I agree that people do stupid things when they're young. Taylor hasn't started off problem-free yet.

However, I agree with Schneed in the fact that you ARE held to a higher-standard when people are paying your million dollar salary.

I wouldn't want my politicians (just an example, I hate politicians) getting wasted every weekend or doing equally stupid actions that affect what WE pay them to do.

On the subject of character, I agree with Daseal that what he did doesn't make him a bad person. It's just like he is a patron son of Cleveland and that they should be disappointed in him, but not disown him.

Yeah I think you sum it up well, MC. I don't mean to say that Kellen Winslow can't be forgiven. He made a dumbass decision with the bike riding. But if I were a fan of the Cleveland Browns, I'd love him if he came back and worked hard when he was healthy next time, and stayed off the motorbikes. If you learn from your mistakes and bad decisions, and do your best to make things right, I can forgive anyone.

In the same vein, I'm irked at Sean Taylor right now for not being at workouts. I think he should be there. But if he comes to camp in shape, works hard in training camp, stays humble, and lays some wood on the Dallas Cowboys this year, I not only won't have a beef with him anymore, but he'll be my friggin hero.

According to Dan Patrick, a few minutes ago, there is reasonable possibility that KW2 is done for the year with a torn ACL

I don't think that anyone disagrees that Moss and TO are great players. I DO think that they are cancer to an organization and over-all shitheads. Yes, the respective teams they have been on HAVE been winners. Haven't the Eagles made it to the NFC championship the past 3-4 years without him? I also don't recall the 49ers being Super Bowl contenders while he was there.

Minnesota became good all at once and I'm sure a lot of it can be attributed to Randy Moss, BUT I think it's a little too early to say that he was the only playmaker Minnesota had. We'll see how the Vikes do this year and then that decision can be made...

However, having a good team around you is what makes you a good team. You can have players like TO and Randy and they give you that added depth. They aren't simply the only reason that a team is good or great.

A lot of people will argue that TO put the Eagles over the hump this year. I disagree. They've been winning the NFC East for years now and they still made it over the metaphoric hump (NFC Championship game) without the help of TO. It wasn't even the offense that was essential to that game. The defense is who shut down Michael Vick.

In the end, teams don't NEED a TO or Randy Moss. There are plenty of bonafied playmakers out there who are classy enough and don't cause dissention among the ranks.

I guess I'm old school because I fail to see how being a great player on the field and at least a respectable person off of the field are mutually exclusive. To my weary old brain, it seems like players who do both (i.e. perform on the field and conduct themselves with some dignity elsewhere) should be the rule and not the exception.

Yeah I think you sum it up well, MC. I don't mean to say that Kellen Winslow can't be forgiven. He made a dumbass decision with the bike riding. But if I were a fan of the Cleveland Browns, I'd love him if he came back and worked hard when he was healthy next time, and stayed off the motorbikes. If you learn from your mistakes and bad decisions, and do your best to make things right, I can forgive anyone.

In the same vein, I'm irked at Sean Taylor right now for not being at workouts. I think he should be there. But if he comes to camp in shape, works hard in training camp, stays humble, and lays some wood on the Dallas Cowboys this year, I not only won't have a beef with him anymore, but he'll be my friggin hero.

Definitely. On that subject, Taylor BETTER show up to mandatory camps because it's not like they can even DO anything about his contract until August 1st anyway.