Baltimore riots

Between gangs and the media, who is telling the truth? They are both liars, but at least the media isn't smashing windows and looting.

What does one have to do with the other? Also, how do you know the gangs are lying?

Are we now holding news outlets to the same standards of gangs and rioters? I don't know about you, but I demand more from people who claim to present news.

What does one have to do with the other? Also, how do you know the gangs are lying?

Are we now holding news outlets to the same standards of gangs and rioters? I don't know about you, but I demand more from people who claim to present news.You're the one calling out the "conservative" media, while saying gang members are "standing up for the truth". That's disgusting on your part, NCSkins.

Let's keep in mind which group engages in violence as part of being in a gang, and which group is reporting on it. Mmmm'kay? Do you think gang members will engage in extortion, intimdation, and murder, but recoil at fibs? While at least the press can be judged for what they say on public broadcasts.

Blaming the media instead of the people actually rioting, gang members or otherwise, is again disgusting on your part NCSkins. It's not just a "handful of incidents" as you posted either, or do you think some warpath members HERE are part of a "conservative media" too?

SMH

Six officers charged in death of Freddie Gray - Baltimore Sun (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/bs-md-ci-freddie-gray-mosby-presser-0502-20150501-story.html)

murder 2 and other charges against 6 BC police officers.

that cant make BCPD happy.

Six officers charged in death of Freddie Gray - Baltimore Sun (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/bs-md-ci-freddie-gray-mosby-presser-0502-20150501-story.html)

murder 2 and other charges against 6 BC police officers.

that cant make BCPD happy.No, but seems like the right thing to do, which presumably most of the BCPD would favor even when it hurts like now. I don't see how you sever your own spinal cord unless you can hang yourself, which wasn't the case with Grey.

http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/2071493/caesar-goodson-charging-documents.pdf

^^^ the charging document for the van driver accused of 2nd degree murder which requires "malice aforethought" .... knowing and intentional disregard for human life.

if you fire a gun into a crowd of people, that is 2nd degree murder. You did not intend to kill any particular person but you knew your actions would likely result in grave bodily harm and/or death to another.

apparently this new order that all arrestees who are handcuffed have to also be secured in a transport van was given 1 week prior.

AT MOST this is negligence. im not even sure it is criminal negligence. Just pure civil negligence.

Joe, if you can comment - would governmental/discretionary immunity apply to a criminal case like this? i imagine not but ive been surprised what the courts have swept under the govt/discretionary immunity clause.
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the charging documents say that Gray surrendered after a foot chase. i thought witness accounts said he was tackled.

my theory is that Gray was tackled and that is when he suffered a partially severed cervical which would allow some function below the level of the injury. he was in a foot chase and adrenaline would cause his neck muscles and soft tissue to harden and hold the cervical spine somewhat in place. the video of him being placed in van shows a person with weak, partial loss of control of his lower extremities, non-weight-bearing legs. the guy clearly had a partial paralysis injury at that moment imo.

a few minutes later, flopping around in a van, some adrenaline wears away = fully severed c spine.

i also find odd the very last sentence of the charging document - the Md State Examiner says Mr. Gray suffered a fatal injury while Gray was unrestrained by a seat belt in the custody of a BDP wagon.

To my understanding an examiner can not say what the factual cause was. The examiner can state what they observed.

Here the charging document walks a fine line. It does not say the Examiner said the fatal injury was caused bc Gray was an unrestrained occupant. It says that the fatal injury was sustained at that time.

I know in a rape trial, the SAFE examiner can say he/she saw vaginal tearing but cannot say such tearing was a result of non-consensual intercourse and cannot say such tearing is consistent or common with non-consensual intercourse.

State Atty greatly overcharged and I think they have the mechanism of injury wrong.

the defense should be easy. They can have a zillion experts/police officers opine that prisoners constantly complain of injury where there is none and that the officers actions, while negligent and unsympathetic, was not done in disregard to human life. it was not depraved indifference. the officers did not actually know Gray had a serious injury. To them it was transport just like any other.



imo, only knowing the bits of news here and there, this will not end well for States Atty office. they dont even know for certain the cause of injury. they are speculating it had to happen in the van. as an officer, i believe they do have an affirmative duty to provide care for injured and the officers clearly did not take his situation seriously ..... but is that malice aforethought?

you have to prove the officers had the specific knowledge that (1) gray had a life threatening spinal cord injury; (2) that they knew that death was foreseeable if they put him in the van handcuffed but not seat belted; and (3) they did it anyway bc they did not care if he lived or died.

Nice break down OTM. I think you are pretty much spot on. I will tell you, from what have heard from people who know these things, Mosby is wayyyy out of her depth. She also got rid of a lot (a lot!) of experienced prosecutors when she took office.

As for official immunity, I honestly don't know how it works in the criminal system. I would assume, if they are provided certain immunity from civil negligence, the officers could not be found guilty of any crime in which "negligence" is a fundamental element of the crime. (i.e., a finding of negligence requires finding a breach of a duty, but, under civil immunity, you are barred from asserting such a breach if official immunity is applicable. Thus, since they can never be civilly liable for negligence, I don't see how they can be criminally liable for negligence - but that is pure speculation on my part. I have been wondering what about that very issue since the charges were announced.)

A little background on Mosby, the State's Attorney:

More on politics at the state’s attorney’s office | Maryland Daily Record (http://thedailyrecord.com/2015/01/16/more-on-politics-at-the-states-attorneys-office/)

Goodbye and Thank You: My Open Goodbye Letter to the State's Attorney's Office (http://goodbyeandthankyoubcsao.blogspot.com/2015/01/my-open-goodbye-letter-to-states.html)

Also, the attorney representing the Gray family in their civil suit against the City was a member of Mosby's transition team and her husband is the City Counselman who represents Mr. Gray's district where the arrest took place.

If the some of those factors were reversed, i.e. the State's Attorney was married to the President of the FOP and hand insurance defense attorneys on her transition team, I suggest that those celebrating the "Justice for Freddie Gray" indictments would have simply assumed the system was rigged.

The double standard's and the refusal of some of these people to see their own hypocrisy is both mind boggling and deeply frustrating. Many chanting for "Justice" merely seek mob vengeance. These same people, if a "not guilty" verdict is returned will assert that meant no wrong was done. Again, the demand will be for "guilt by reasonable assumption" rather than "guilt beyond a reasonable doubt."

The thing I have not seen at any point is probable cause given for the actual arrest.

What I have seen is reasonable suspicion to "stop and frisk." Based on the charging document, he surrendered to police. At which point, they had the right to ask for ID, frisk, etc. HOWEVER, once that's done, unless there is an open warrant or something else, there is no probable cause to place him under arrest as I have not heard of any crime committed. Maybe he attacked the officers during the stop and frisk - if so, and St. Attorney Office fails to include those facts, it will ultimately bite them in the ass.

Reading through the charging docs, the arresting officers and their immediate supervisor (all white) were charged with illegal arrest/false imprisonment, misconduct, and 2nd degree assault.

The supervising officer and two other officers (both African American) who observed Gray en route (due to stops along the way) were charged with involuntary manslaughter. Presumably b/c they failed to restrain Gray on several occasions and ignored any requests for a medic.

The driver (African American) was the one charged with murder 2 - depraved heart. I am assuming b/c he checked on Gray multiple times and did not call for a medic or properly restrain Gray.

I had a case against Mosby when she was defending car accidents for Safeco. She never returned a phone call and did below the bare minimum. A few years later she is the State's Attorney for Baltimore City? Whhhhhaaaatttttt???

That open letter is jaw dropping.

It is very hard for cities like Baltimore to recruit police officers. Now, who would want to join if Marilyn Mosby will charge you faster than a criminal?

It is impossible for jurisdictions to keep their top prosecutors. PG county cant keep their experienced prosecutors on the payroll bc private firms can offer 2-3x as much. Now she comes in and fires people? people who know how to prosecute a case and defense attys respect?

bet $1,000 right now she will never be 1st chair for a serious case. Why? she is unqualified but the democrat voters voted her in the gubernational elections and no republican or other party ran against her so when balt city went to vote, it was her or a blank line for a write in.

The ripple effect on this could be unimaginable. this could set baltimore back in ways people dont imagine bc its more behind the curtain.

I moving to columbia in a month.

Joe - i was shocked when I read the charging document stating that Gray surrendered after a brief foot chase. that implies no force so certainly no excessive force.

the charging document and Mosby's own words repeatedly stress that he was unlawfully detained with no PC as grounds to state any touching was illegal and therefore any consequence thereafter was illegal.

thats a slippery slope. under that language and thinking, any person who was arrested and the charges were later dismissed for lack of PC has a slam dunk 1983 civil rights claim. what happens if a person is mistakenly arrested and then they are killed by another prisoner? or catch hep c? or have a heart attack? do we now charge the arresting officers with murder 2? we all know jail is for criminals and criminals kill .. so is it depraved heart to put someone in jail and then they are subsequently attacked or killed? we all know being arrested can cause panic and stress, so if someone has a heart attack as a result, should we charge the arresting officer with murder 2?

** everything said above is my own personal opinion and not presented as fact.

I imagine every have decent crim defense atty will pray up a jury trial and assert speedy trial rights. no way the BC state's attorney's office can do anything right now but plea em out.