Redskins Trademark cancelled

Believing something is fundamentally wrong doesn't mean you have to go and join the Peace Corps to help save the poor tribes in New Guinea.
I absolutely agree and I'm not trying to disparage name-changers all together; which is a trap that is easy to fall into whenever discussing politics and the onus is on the person talking to make clear who they are referencing and when they are and are not painting with a broad brush, so for that I apologize :)

My issue is not with people that sympathize with native americans that find offense. My issue is solely with the people that screaming about how morally outraged they are today, when (insert random number) years ago they bought things with Redskins on it and wore it proudly. They sung the song. They watched the games. They attended the stadium.

If you have a moral outrage about something you don't support it. In your analogy.... you don't have to join the peace corp, but you probably shouldn't donate money to the oppressors in New Guinae, and if you do then... well you're a hypocrite and/or a liar. The hypocrisy comes in you (general you) demanding others meet a standard you yourself don't seem to actually meet, the liar comes in by saying you're outraged yet actively supporting the thing you're claiming to be outraged about.

There are plenty of redskins fans that sympathize with native americans that find offense. There's nothing wrong with supporting both sides in my opinion. It's all about how you support either side, or more importantly how you treat others that seem to lack the same support you do.


Merch and ticket sales are shared throughout the league, so trying to hurt the individual team monetarily doesn't necessarily work. I personally don't wear anything with the name or mascot.

It's not about hurting the team, it's about living up to a standard you're demanding others meet.

It's kind of like my whole opinion on the thing... When the Native Americans stop using the word themselves for their sports team and citing it as a source of honor and pride, I'll start considering whether our team should change its name; even then it would be hard to agree with them given the long history of that meaning existing.

reasonable minds can certainly disagree on this issue.

i think there are 3 camps:

1- people who want the name to stay
2 - people who want the name to change
3 - people who are not personally offended by the name and support and sport the name but wouldnt put up to much of a fight to change the name if native americans are truly offended

im in camp 3.

this discussion has certainly expanded my mind with some great posts and thoughts from both sides.

i highly recommend listening to Amanda Blackhorse's interview on the junkies to put a voice to the native american dissent.
I am in camp 3 as well.

After hearing Amanda Blackhorse speak I now understand more of where she is coming from. I feel that she, and as a whole the group she represents, don't whole heartily deep down think Redskins is anywhere close to the n word. I get the impression that what molded her mind was actually seeing belligerent fans dressed in tacky Indian head dresses and gear. Which is something I can actually understand. Seeing someone stumbling through a parking lot wasted dressed up as an Indian Chief would be very disturbing to a Native American.

why would anyone take that personal unless they have an obsessive compulsive disorder ?

a team needs to change their name because of dumb drunk people dressed like Indians ?

most of these people who say they want it changed aren't even sports fans or football fans to begin with and they are women. IE they have no connection or investment in any of this

I am in camp 3 as well.

well, then get out of the way with your less than passive aggressive crap because you wont help the cause !!! :rant:

I'm just making a joke here, I don't actually mean anything negative towards you :silly:

Word definitions are determined one of two ways: prescriptively (authoritarian) or descriptively (democratically, determined by how they are in face used). Contemporary American dictionaries lean towards the latter.

Anyone who has looked up words in a dictionary knows there are often more than one senses or meanings listed for a given word.

The word Redskins--the team name--is obviously not used disparagingly nor as a slur (the team named themselves that, fans are proud of the name, etc.).

Therefore the patent office (as are name-changers) is making the error of conflating two different usages or meanings of the word Redskins, and should reverse their decision.

Word definitions are determined one of two ways: prescriptively (authoritarian) or descriptively (democratically, determined by how they are in face used). Contemporary American dictionaries lean towards the latter.

Anyone who has looked up words in a dictionary knows there are often more than one senses or meanings listed for a given word.

The word Redskins--the team name--is obviously not used disparagingly nor as a slur (the team named themselves that, fans are proud of the name, etc.).

Therefore the patent office (as are name-changers) is making the error of conflating two different usages or meanings of the word Redskins, and should reverse their decision.

for example websters defines homophobia as though it were an actual thing when in fact there is absolutely no case study that proves anyone actually has that phobia.

Please re-read my stance on boycotting. Another example- not a fan of Orson Scott Card's personal beliefs and public statements. Huge fan of Ender's Game. Wagner was one hell of a composer despite being an unapologetic anti-Semite. Mel Gibson's drunken rants? Don't tell me some of you aren't disgusted by his words, yet still watch his films. Separate the art from the artist. A song's message from its offensive content. A team from its nickname. It's the same way I can dance to "Ain't No Fun" in a club without stomping off the floor because of its misogynist (yes, offensive) lyrics.

Although I see the word Redskin as an offensive label, I tolerate it because I don't define the team I root for by its mascot or nickname. Being from the DMV area ties me to this team. I understand not everyone weighs the word equally right now. Just like how the n-bomb was part of everyday vernacular not so long ago, it took a few decades for the word to become universally rejected (despite some who say there are more important things to worry about than such words). But with sentiment quickly growing, right now will be tomorrow's misstep. Our future generations will wonder how exactly this name stuck around for so long.

I'll still be supporting this team after the name switches. For everyone holding on to the name for dear life- will you?

See I think this is where we differ. I don't equate tolerance to offense. Those are two different things. Tolerance means I accept whatever it is I tolerate. Doesn't have to be something I even like, but I accept it. Heck I might even be entertained by it.

Being offended, again my opinion, means that I do not tolerate whatever it is that has caused me offense. It's caused me personal grief, directly, and its caused me disruption in my soul.

Completely my opinion, but I would wager to say that a good amount of those who have hopped on the "change name" bandwagon, are there, not because they are personally offended by the name, but support the possibility that someone might be offended. In other words, they're looking to be offended at something.

See I think this is where we differ. I don't equate tolerance to offense. Those are two different things. Tolerance means I accept whatever it is I tolerate. Doesn't have to be something I even like, but I accept it. Heck I might even be entertained by it.

Being offended, again my opinion, means that I do not tolerate whatever it is that has caused me offense. It's caused me personal grief, directly, and its caused me disruption in my soul.


Friend A: Your religion/god/diety is about as legitimate as the flying spaghetti monster.

Friend B: That statement totally offends me and what I stand for.

Friend A: So where do you feel like eating?

Friend B: Let's go grab some sushi.

See what I did here? Friend B does not define Friend A by his conflicting perspective towards his religious beliefs. Friend B is even offended by the statement. But it's just part of what makes Friend A, Friend A. There's much more to Friend A than just his offensive spiritual statement- honesty, loyalty, etc. Values that Friend B exhibit trump his offended feelings when religion is discussed.

I sincerely don't like the team name... But the name doesn't negate all the reasons (listed several pages back) why I follow the organization. Behaving in absolutes will eventually trip you up somewhere down the line.

How many people here saw the new X-Men? Bryan Singer (the director) is being accused of some pretty serious stuff (http://www.scribd.com/doc/218742717/Bryan-Singer-Accused-of-Sexually-Abusing-Underage-Boy-Pt-1-TheWrap). The average person had no idea this is going on, those who knew are naturally withholding judgment before boycotting... but I know quite a few industry heads who think he's guilty (based on years of well-known industry lore regarding Singer's circle) and went to see it anyway. I'm fairly certain they are offended/disgusted/soul crushed by child rape, but they did not define the entire film by the alleged actions of its director. When you boycott a film you originally intended to see, you also hurt the writers, editors, VFX, camera, talent, etc. (OT- Amy Berg is working on a documentary that is going to blow the lid off Hollywood's evil secret; just like she did with her previous documentary dealing with the Catholic Church).

Similar to how a director has the biggest creative role in a film, the Redskins name is obviously a big part of the team's brand. But there are other elements that connect a fan with the team; elements that trump the name.

See I think this is where we differ. I don't equate tolerance to offense. Those are two different things. Tolerance means I accept whatever it is I tolerate. Doesn't have to be something I even like, but I accept it. Heck I might even be entertained by it.
Being offended, again my opinion, means that I do not tolerate whatever it is that has caused me offense. It's caused me personal grief, directly, and its caused me disruption in my soul.

Completely my opinion, but I would wager to say that a good amount of those who have hopped on the "change name" bandwagon, are there, not because they are personally offended by the name, but support the possibility that someone might be offended. In other words, they're looking to be offended at something.

tolerance does not mean acceptance. I tolerate what gay people think is ok to do in their lives but I will never accept it. I can be nice to a gay person without accepting the gay lifestyle as right or normal. That is tolerance.

people try to define tolerance as acceptance and by definition it simply isnt

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